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What to do about Walsh Park?

  • 16-03-2018 8:02am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,012 ✭✭✭ fricatus


    It now looks as if the Waterford senior hurlers will have to play their "home" matches in Limerick and Thurles because Walsh Park is not up to the task.

    These seem to be the options:

    1. Redevelop Walsh Park
    Advantages: tradition, location. Disadvantages: tight site, parking (although in reality, there's plenty of parking within 15-20 minutes' walking distance)

    2. Develop Fraher Field
    Advantages: easier travel for those from the West of the county, plenty of space. Disadvantages: major GAA matches lost to the city, further to travel for the 70% of the county population who live east of Portlaw

    3. Carriganore
    Advantages: accessible location, parking, east-west compromise, plenty of space. Disadvantages: no atmosphere in city on big match days, no public transport option, may not fit in with WIT's plans as the site (I believe) is not owned by the GAA.

    4. Old Waterford Crystal site
    Advantages: space, accessible location, possibility for on-site parking, close to old Walsh Park. Disadvantages: The owner may be more interested in developing a business park, per existing plans.

    5. Waterside
    Advantages: city-centre location, buzz on match days, close to pubs, restaurants and city-centre parking, council-owned I believe. Disadvantages: would need to remove car park entirely and would probably involve relocating part of the Johnstown business centre, congestion on match days, residents might object

    I took a look on Google Maps and compared the footprint of Semple Stadium (ours won't need to be bigger...) with that of the Waterside site, and I reckon it would fit. To me, that's the "vision option". Unless we go for a greenfield site elsewhere, there are no other sites in the city that would be big enough.

    Thoughts?


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 26,210 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78


    I think it's time to move on from Walsh park, it simply is not viable or even sensible to redevelop it now, it has served its purpose, but I do understand the loss this would cause


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,511 ✭✭✭ Max Powers


    One and three are the only options really, ridiculous to be even considering having county stadium in less populated area,i haven't even heard a wild rumor about old crystal site so I don't think there is any inclination of that happening, said that, I'd prefer that location to carriganore.I'm a fan of urban city based stadiums but reality is, with housing all around, objections, etc it will never reach its potential. I'm agree with what Eddie mulligan said, all come together in WIt or some other good location.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,210 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78


    Max Powers wrote:
    One and three are the only options really, ridiculous to be even considering having county stadium in less populated area,i haven't even heard a wild rumor about old crystal site so I don't think there is any inclination of that happening, said that, I'd prefer that location to carriganore.I'm a fan of urban city based stadiums but reality is, with housing all around, objections, etc it will never reach its potential. I'm agree with what Eddie mulligan said, all come together in WIt or some other good location.


    My gut is saying carriganore as well, makes sense for a lot of reasons, major investment required for that though


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭ Deiseen


    fricatus wrote: »
    It now looks as if the Waterford senior hurlers will have to play their "home" matches in Limerick and Thurles because Walsh Park is not up to the task.

    These seem to be the options:

    1. Redevelop Walsh Park
    Advantages: tradition, location. Disadvantages: tight site, parking (although in reality, there's plenty of parking within 15-20 minutes' walking distance)

    2. Develop Fraher Field
    Advantages: easier travel for those from the West of the county, plenty of space. Disadvantages: major GAA matches lost to the city, further to travel for the 70% of the county population who live east of Portlaw

    3. Carriganore
    Advantages: accessible location, parking, east-west compromise, plenty of space. Disadvantages: no atmosphere in city on big match days, no public transport option, may not fit in with WIT's plans as the site (I believe) is not owned by the GAA.

    4. Old Waterford Crystal site
    Advantages: space, accessible location, possibility for on-site parking, close to old Walsh Park. Disadvantages: The owner may be more interested in developing a business park, per existing plans.

    5. Waterside
    Advantages: city-centre location, buzz on match days, close to pubs, restaurants and city-centre parking, council-owned I believe. Disadvantages: would need to remove car park entirely and would probably involve relocating part of the Johnstown business centre, congestion on match days, residents might object

    I took a look on Google Maps and compared the footprint of Semple Stadium (ours won't need to be bigger...) with that of the Waterside site, and I reckon it would fit. To me, that's the "vision option". Unless we go for a greenfield site elsewhere, there are no other sites in the city that would be big enough.

    Thoughts?

    Never thought about Waterside, will check it out on maps, but I think Waterford crystal would be an ideal site. Surely a landswap (with WP) plus some money could be on the cards to make the land available?

    Some kind of a detailed statement from the county board is required at this stage.

    By saying nothing, people assume they haven't an iota what they are doing and have no plan. Which is what i personally think at the moment. They NEED to say something at this stage.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭ Deiseen


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Max Powers wrote:
    One and three are the only options really, ridiculous to be even considering having county stadium in less populated area,i haven't even heard a wild rumor about old crystal site so I don't think there is any inclination of that happening, said that, I'd prefer that location to carriganore.I'm a fan of urban city based stadiums but reality is, with housing all around, objections, etc it will never reach its potential. I'm agree with what Eddie mulligan said, all come together in WIt or some other good location.


    My gut is saying carriganore as well, makes sense for a lot of reasons, major investment required for that though

    Never gonna happen, and should not happen. If its out there then even people from Waterford city would need to drive to it. Would fall under the category of "bad planning"


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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,210 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78


    Deiseen wrote:
    Never gonna happen, and should not happen. If its out there then even people from Waterford city would need to drive to it. Would fall under the category of "bad planning"


    Local people already go to that area to shop, and to participate in sporting events and activities, and they won't go there to watch hurling? I'd be interested to hear your arguments. Due to societal changes, you d be surprised how far people currently travel to conduct such activities. It's really not that far for locals to travel, the road infrastructure required is more or less already there, it virtually does not, and cannot be created at Walsh park, but maybe the crystal site is another option? I understand the historical significance of Walsh park but...


  • Registered Users Posts: 267 ✭✭ spideyman92


    Deiseen wrote: »
    Never gonna happen, and should not happen. If its out there then even people from Waterford city would need to drive to it. Would fall under the category of "bad planning"

    Funnily enough I'm actually working on a stadium design for my final project based in the Waterford Crystal site and based it there instead of Carriganore because of those kind of reasons. It's too far outside the city for City fans and you need other stuff nearby like parking and shops and other amenities around it which there is none of around Carriganore. Bus services that already go past the Cork road and there's loads of parking around the place within walking distance.
    For Páirc Uí Chaoimh, Cork GAA have agreements with places around the place to use their parking on match days too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭ Deiseen


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Deiseen wrote:
    Never gonna happen, and should not happen. If its out there then even people from Waterford city would need to drive to it. Would fall under the category of "bad planning"


    Local people already go to that area to shop, and to participate in sporting events and activities, and they won't go there to watch hurling? I'd be interested to hear your arguments. Due to societal changes, you d be surprised how far people currently travel to conduct such activities. It's really not that far for locals to travel, the road infrastructure required is more or less already there, it virtually does not, and cannot be created at Walsh park, but maybe the crystal site is another option? I understand the historical significance of Walsh park but...

    Parking and sporting events... Do 30,000 people descend on it in cars over the space of a few hours? Not to mention the people who are attending the other sporting events and doing their shopping at the same time?

    It's 6kms outside of the city. It might aswell be in Dungarven at that rate. It would be of zero benefit to town. People would drive to the stadium and then leave with no knock on benefit for shops, pubs and restaurants in town. I don't know how people don't recognize these major drawbacks


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭ Deiseen


    Deiseen wrote: »
    Never gonna happen, and should not happen. If its out there then even people from Waterford city would need to drive to it. Would fall under the category of "bad planning"

    Funnily enough I'm actually working on a stadium design for my final project based in the Waterford Crystal site and based it there instead of Carriganore because of those kind of reasons. It's too far outside the city for City fans and you need other stuff nearby like parking and shops and other amenities around it which there is none of around Carriganore. Bus services that already go past the Cork road and there's loads of parking around the place within walking distance.
    For Páirc Uí Chaoimh, Cork GAA have agreements with places around the place to use their parking on match days too.

    Send that onto the County Board right now man!!

    Would it be worthwhile contacting Frisby about it? Dunno if their feedback would benefit your project in anyway??


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,642 ✭✭✭ gscully


    Deiseen wrote: »
    Never thought about Waterside, will check it out on maps, but I think Waterford crystal would be an ideal site. Surely a landswap (with WP) plus some money could be on the cards to make the land available?

    Some kind of a detailed statement from the county board is required at this stage.

    By saying nothing, people assume they haven't an iota what they are doing and have no plan. Which is what i personally think at the moment. They NEED to say something at this stage.

    If Waterford Crystal site is big enough for a GAA stadium, it is big enough for a concert venue to rival the Point Theatre. There is no big venue in the south and that Dublin venue is not always fit for purpose. U2 had to redesign their set because of the shortcomings of the Point. Getting off topic, but that would be my dream. A multi-purpose arena like London's O2. Concerts, sports, expos etc.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭ Deiseen


    gscully wrote: »
    Deiseen wrote: »
    Never thought about Waterside, will check it out on maps, but I think Waterford crystal would be an ideal site. Surely a landswap (with WP) plus some money could be on the cards to make the land available?

    Some kind of a detailed statement from the county board is required at this stage.

    By saying nothing, people assume they haven't an iota what they are doing and have no plan. Which is what i personally think at the moment. They NEED to say something at this stage.

    If Waterford Crystal site is big enough for a GAA stadium, it is big enough for a concert venue to rival the Point Theatre. There is no big venue in the south and that Dublin venue is not always fit for purpose. U2 had to redesign their set because of the shortcomings of the Point. Getting off topic, but that would be my dream. A multi-purpose arena like London's O2. Concerts, sports, expos etc.

    This is why the city council and County Board need to get together. To talk about thr possibilities.


  • Registered Users Posts: 969 cul beag


    Listening to John O Leary on Wens morning when interviewed by Eamonn Keane, Walsh Park is going to be updated and nothing else is being considered. Again the short sightedness of the powers that be is staggering as this should be a once in a lifetime opportunity to do the right thing and develop a proper plan. The Glass factory site is an ideal location but alas, like everyone on that county board we are the laughing stock of the country.
    Anyone with a forward vision plan is certainly not welcome to this neck of the woods.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,210 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78


    gscully wrote:
    If Waterford Crystal site is big enough for a GAA stadium, it is big enough for a concert venue to rival the Point Theatre. There is no big venue in the south and that Dublin venue is not always fit for purpose. U2 had to redesign their set because of the shortcomings of the Point. Getting off topic, but that would be my dream. A multi-purpose arena like London's O2. Concerts, sports, expos etc.


    Use to dream of this year's ago, but I suspect that's all it is, Waterford people have been very poor to support music events throughout the years, but this could be changing with current events, maybe this dream is possible in the future, but for the moment, I suspect not. No harm in dreaming though, as sometimes, they come true, but it has to be viable


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,642 ✭✭✭ gscully


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Use to dream of this year's ago, but I suspect that's all it is, Waterford people have been very poor to support music events throughout the years, but this could be changing with current events, maybe this dream is possible in the future, but for the moment, I suspect not. No harm in dreaming though, as sometimes, they come true, but it has to be viable

    It's not just about Waterford people though. If the venue is big enough to attract top acts, they'll flock from afar and make it viable.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 28,173 ✭✭✭✭ Mossy Monk


    There's not a hope of a concert venue ever going on the Waterford Crystal site. There are residential areas all around it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,210 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78


    gscully wrote:
    It's not just about Waterford people though. If the venue is big enough to attract top acts, they'll flock from afar and make it viable.


    This isn't a certainty, it's easy to get carried away with dreams, happens me all the time, but I'd imagine the already existing businesses and business owners from this industry are constantly looking for opportunities around the country for such investments, but there doesn't seem to be much interest in Waterford in this regard, i.e. something is missing, and we must not forget, 'build it, and they will come', isn't necessarily always true


  • Registered Users Posts: 120 ✭✭ fargojones123


    gscully wrote: »
    It's not just about Waterford people though. If the venue is big enough to attract top acts, they'll flock from afar and make it viable.

    Anyone else remember South?

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/tramore-s-new-music-venue-set-to-rival-capital-1.334765


  • Registered Users Posts: 120 ✭✭ fargojones123


    Updating Walsh Park is a bad idea, there is no parking for one thing and the roads around it clearly aren't designed for the large volumes of traffic. The old Waterford Crystal site would be better and it isn't that far from Walsh Park


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭ Deiseen


    Updating Walsh Park is a bad idea, there is no parking for one thing and the roads around it clearly aren't designed for the large volumes of traffic. The old Waterford Crystal site would be better and it isn't that far from Walsh Park

    Lots of drawbacks to Walsh Park but this parking one is a joke.

    Has anyone actually been to a game in other counties? Theres not a single one that has decent parking facilities. I've walked 40+ minutes on occasion to get to Stadiums. No one mentions parking in these places.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,243 ✭✭✭ deiseach


    Deiseen wrote: »
    Lots of drawbacks to Walsh Park but this parking one is a joke.

    Has anyone actually been to a game in other counties? Theres not a single one that has decent parking facilities. I've walked 40+ minutes on occasion to get to Stadiums. No one mentions parking in these places.

    There are two GAA pitches that are closer to Walsh Park than the ones that were successfully used for parking at Páirc Uí Chaoimh last year.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,144 ✭✭✭ reni10


    There is no issue with parking if it is marshalled correctly and the GAA pay a small amount of money to have a marshall on each street around the stadium to prevent people from parking as they do around the cork and other stadiums!

    Just build a 20,000 stadium something like in Tullamore and then all will be fine!

    Where is the official statement from the county board on what is actually happening?


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,210 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78


    reni10 wrote: »
    There is no issue with parking if it is marshalled correctly and the GAA pay a small amount of money to have a marshall on each street around the stadium to prevent people from parking as they do around the cork and other stadiums!

    Just build a 20,000 stadium something like in Tullamore and then all will be fine!

    Where is the official statement from the county board on what is actually happening?

    i suspect the locals have a very different view on this


  • Registered Users Posts: 267 ✭✭ spideyman92


    Deiseen wrote: »
    Send that onto the County Board right now man!!

    Would it be worthwhile contacting Frisby about it? Dunno if their feedback would benefit your project in anyway??

    I'm really happy with how the project is going but I dunno if it's at a stage where it's worth showing it off to people outside of lecturers and guest critics yet. I'm not sure about showing off unfinished work haha. Plus it just seems like wishful thinking when they seem so intent on sticking with Walsh Park. Anything on the glass factory site would probably cost a lot of money just for remediation work alone to deal with contamination in the ground from the factory. And that's before you even start the stadium.

    As for Frisby, I think he has something of his own in mind for the site. There was an article around last September I think about him appealing a decision for the Waterford Crystal site to be included on the list of vacant sites. Cheers though. :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭ Deiseen


    Deiseen wrote: »
    Send that onto the County Board right now man!!

    Would it be worthwhile contacting Frisby about it? Dunno if their feedback would benefit your project in anyway??

    I'm really happy with how the project is going but I dunno if it's at a stage where it's worth showing it off to people outside of lecturers and guest critics yet. I'm not sure about showing off unfinished work haha. Plus it just seems like wishful thinking when they seem so intent on sticking with Walsh Park. Anything on the glass factory site would probably cost a lot of money just for remediation work alone to deal with contamination in the ground from the factory. And that's before you even start the stadium.

    As for Frisby, I think he has something of his own in mind for the site. There was an article around last September I think about him appealing a decision for the Waterford Crystal site to be included on the list of vacant sites. Cheers though. :)

    Wasn't sure how far along you were with it. I saw the same article about frisby and it seems the site is causing him a bit of pain. Might relieve that pain if he sells it to Waterford GAA...

    But noted on the remedial work and contamination. Do you know what the current level of contamination is? Thought all of it/most was dealt with?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭ Deiseen


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    reni10 wrote: »
    There is no issue with parking if it is marshalled correctly and the GAA pay a small amount of money to have a marshall on each street around the stadium to prevent people from parking as they do around the cork and other stadiums!

    Just build a 20,000 stadium something like in Tullamore and then all will be fine!

    Where is the official statement from the county board on what is actually happening?

    i suspect the locals have a very different view on this

    Locals have said they are not against an upgrade. They just want correct systems in place to stop people blocking roads/driveways and allow them access, within reason, on match days.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭ Deiseen


    deiseach wrote: »
    Deiseen wrote: »
    Lots of drawbacks to Walsh Park but this parking one is a joke.

    Has anyone actually been to a game in other counties? Theres not a single one that has decent parking facilities. I've walked 40+ minutes on occasion to get to Stadiums. No one mentions parking in these places.

    There are two GAA pitches that are closer to Walsh Park than the ones that were successfully used for parking at Páirc Uí Chaoimh last year.

    Possibly more even, roanmore, dls, mount sion, st. Pauls, erins own...

    Think of the money generated for these clubs aswell if they charged €5 a pop for a car.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,210 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78


    Deiseen wrote: »
    Locals have said they are not against an upgrade. They just want correct systems in place to stop people blocking roads/driveways and allow them access, within reason, on match days.

    has there actually been a democratic process involved in gaining this understanding, i,e. has there actually been a survey of the locals done to confirm this? thank you


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,243 ✭✭✭ deiseach


    reni10 wrote: »
    There is no issue with parking if it is marshalled correctly and the GAA pay a small amount of money to have a marshall on each street around the stadium to prevent people from parking as they do around the cork and other stadiums!

    Just build a 20,000 stadium something like in Tullamore and then all will be fine!

    Where is the official statement from the county board on what is actually happening?
    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    i suspect the locals have a very different view on this

    I notice you don't highlight the 'if it is marshalled correctly' part of reni10's post. I'm sure the locals around the Gaelic Grounds would rather not have another match on their doorstep, will we be canvassing their opinions on the new venue for the Waterford-Tipp match?


  • Registered Users Posts: 578 ✭✭✭ Dunmoreroader


    Ideal would be a redeveloped Walsh Park with more space to make it big enough and put in the necessary ancillary services i.e. like what they did in Thomond Park Limerick or Anfield Liverpool - buy out all the houses on the adjoining land i.e. Griffiths Place and Ard na Greinne, approx. 42 properties, €100K a pop i.e. €4.2M - would be a good start!:)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,210 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78


    deiseach wrote: »
    I notice you don't highlight the 'if it is marshalled correctly' part of reni10's post. I'm sure the locals around the Gaelic Grounds would rather not have another match on their doorstep, will we be canvassing their opinions on the new venue for the Waterford-Tipp match?

    to be honest, walsh park area looks like bedlam during match time, i dont live in the area, but i suspect this is pissing off the locals, they deserve to be listened to. if there was a survey done to hear their concerns, and if from that survey it was found control measures such as marshaling etc would ease or even dealing with their concerns, id be on board, but at the moment, im not.


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