Why cycle lanes will never work in Ireland

Keeks

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

That's not to say I condone inconsiderate parking.

There is a difference between inconsiderate and illegal.....

clod71

magicbastarder wrote: »

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

Anyway, I don't know where most people are based, but I cycle in Dublin and I've never had any difficulty passing a parked car.

you are a confident, bronzed cycling god though, who can maintain 50km/h on the flat.

a 70 year old woman may not be as confident at pulling off the moves you can manage, as you are though.

exactly my point

Chips Lovell

Keeks wrote: »

There is a difference between inconsiderate and illegal.....

Correct. All illegal parking is inconsiderate. But not all inconsiderate parking is illegal.

WoollyRedHat

Lumen wrote: »

It's not hard, it just requires care and attention.

If you cycle or drive at speed into spaces that you cannot positively see to be clear and are likely to remain so, you're going to have an accident sooner or later.

It's a different story when you're on a busy cycle lane with multiple people behind you.

If there was a stationary car in one of the lanes on the M50, how do you think people would fare there?

Grassey

WoollyRedHat wrote:

If there was a stationary car in one of the lanes on the M50, how do you think people would fare there?

If it was anything like this morning chaos... Pfft them taxi drivers eh...

magicbastarder

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

A.) Believe me, I'm not. And B.) even if I were I would be a right w**nker if I was doing the "I'm alright Jack" thing of asserting that if I can do it, whether anyone else can doesn't matter to me. I wouldn't be saying it if I didn't think cyclists young and old could manage.

i'm just constantly conscious that i cycle on roads a novice cyclist would balk at. and i certainly would not blame them for doing so. i would be damn worried about my 13 year old niece cycling down east wall road, for example.

the fact is that cycle lanes are - theoretically - provided so cyclists have a lane to themselves, that they should reasonably not have to encounter cars in. the authorities should either provide cycle lanes and police them, or not provide them at all and end the pretence that they're there to help cyclists.

Lumen

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

It's a different story when you're on a busy cycle lane with multiple people behind you.

If there was a stationary car in one of the lanes on the M50, how do you think people would fare there?

I think people would die, because they are morons.

A more common example is people driving on country roads. You should always approach a blind corner assuming there is a tractor or a horse or a child lying down in the road just out of sight. If this situation ever came to pass there would be a dead tractor/horse/child.

I don't know any culchies that drive to the visibility on L roads.

That doesn't make it any less important or harder. It is not hard.

GreeBo

Lumen wrote: »

So you cycle out far enough for that not to be a problem.

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

Staying out of the door zone is part of any safe overtaking manoeuvre.

I guess you both missed the second part of my post in your haste to prove me wrong.

and the cars overtaking you give sufficient room for you to avoid said door....

Lumen

GreeBo wrote: »

I guess you both missed the second part of my post in your haste to prove me wrong.

No. This isn't an issue if you take the lane. Do you actually cycle at all?

magicbastarder

on the cycle home today, i was mulling over the semantics of comparing the statements 'cycling is dangerous' with 'cycling can be dangerous'. considering it cause such disagreement on this thread.

because - of course - cycling *can* be dangerous. but it's kinda understandable that some people regard those two statements as stating different things, while some would argue they are basically saying the same thing. not that i came to any great insight or conclusion, so as you were.

Lumen

Deedsie wrote: »

Oh the son of a seasoned cyclist is a confident safe cyclist himself... That must be true of all school children so...

I didn't say he was confident and safe. I said he was better at mountain biking than me. If you'd seen me on a mountain bike you would realise how limited that appraisal is :pac:

Wishbone Ash

TallGlass wrote: »

Amber means prepare to stop if safe to do so. Stopping a double decker bus in that space of time, would have been highly dangerous. Bus driver done the safe thing and also obeyed the rules of the road.

Amber means STOP unless it is dangerous to do so. It doesn't mean to 'prepare' for anything. When i was doing truck and bus lessons, one of the first things taught is to 'read' the road ahead as large vehicles are much more difficult to manoeuvre than a car. When approaching a green light assume it is going to change.

magicbastarder

someday, Lumen's son will stumble across that post and will have to ask his da why he called his beloved son 'unremarkable'.

ED E

Odd question, but do you speak with a central european accent perhaps Lumen?

GreeBo

Lumen wrote: »

No. This isn't an issue if you take the lane. Do you actually cycle at all?

At what point do you take the lane exactly?

At some stage you need to overtake the parked car, I.e. Move further into the driving lane.
This isn't possible safely if there is a car closely overtaking you.

And yes I do, so you can take your ridiculous condescension somewhere else, thanks.

Wishbone Ash

GreeBo wrote: »

At what point do you take the lane exactly?

At some stage you need to overtake the parked car, I.e. Move further into the driving lane.
This isn't possible safely if there is a car closely overtaking you....

Read the road ahead. If you are approaching a school at opening/closing time, assume there will be vehicles parked in the cycle track. Reading the road ahead will give you time to check behind and signal your intention and manoeuvre in good time. Most roads outside schools have a reduced speed limit.

Many cyclists here say things such as "Every day there are cars parked on the cycle track outside......blah, blah," Why not avoid it then and cycle on the road?

I see so many cyclists waiting until they cycle right up to an obstacle before making a move. Can't get my head around that.

GreeBo

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Read the road ahead. If you are approaching a school at opening/closing time, assume there will be vehicles parked in the cycle track. Reading the road ahead will give you time to check behind and signal your intention and manoeuvre in good time. Most roads outside schools have a reduced speed limit.

Many cyclists here say things such as "Every day there are cars parked on the cycle track outside......blah, blah," Why not avoid it then and cycle on the road?

I see so many cyclists waiting until they cycle right up to an obstacle before making a move. Can't get my head around that.

It's impractical to cycle down the middle of the lane just because there is one car parked to the side.
It also obstructs other traffic needlessly, which is the whole problem with people parking on the side of the road.
In any case my point still stands, a passing car can and tbh usually will not leave enough room for you to both miss an opening door and have 1.5M clearance.
Take Ranelagh for example, with cars on both sides, in congested traffic there isn't room to pass between both stopped cars and avoid an opening door..No matter how much road you take.

Bottom line, this should be prevented, not excused.

Wishbone Ash

GreeBo wrote: »

....Bottom line, this should be prevented, not excused.

I don't think anyone would disagree with you that it should be prevented and I didn't hear anyone excusing it. It's simply a fact of life that has to be dealt with.

greenspurs

Good god .....
Another thread about cycling that has descended into the same people posting the same posts that have been posted and fought over on dozens of cycling threads....
Don't you get bored of arguing over the same minute details , and arguing the same points with (mostly) the same posters.
Yes, its a discussion board etc etc ... but the same ones over and over ???

Keeks

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Many cyclists here say things such as "Every day there are cars parked on the cycle track outside......blah, blah," Why not avoid it then and cycle on the road?

Because we shouldn't accept bad road behavior........cycle lanes are not designed to be parked in and as such pose a hazard to All road users not just cyclists

Just because cyclists do the most moaning about it just make it any less valid of an argument.

Macy0161

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

When approaching a green light assume it is going to change.

That's what I was taught in a car too, and I assume that hasn't changed in the meantime. Like speeding/ shooting fish in a barrel, amber gambling and red light jumping won't be solved until there's enforcement, which really means cameras, which aren't on the agenda at all!

clod71 wrote: »

It's simple enough... Instead of a simple painted line use a kerb to protect that lane, especially in certain areas, like schools, etc... If the cars can't go in, they will not go in.
Something like that shoud do

Grade seperation with just a kerb doesn't work in my experience. If a kerb was enough, we'd never see parking on pavements. I'd nearly go as far as say it encourages parking, as the motorists feel they are off the road!

gmacww

Keeks wrote: »

Because we shouldn't accept bad road behavior........cycle lanes are not designed to be parked in and as such pose a hazard to All road users not just cyclists

Just because cyclists do the most moaning about it just make it any less valid of an argument.

WA has a very valid point though. I don't believe anyone is suggesting that we just blindly accept it. Of course it has to change, it's a behavioral change that's not limited to cycle lanes. Take my son's school for example. No cycle lane through Blessington however at start/finish time cars regularly park along the church. If I'm cycling through at that time I simply signal in plenty of time, take the lane and proceed. It's not a big issue for me.

I fully echo WA comment's regarding signaling. As a commuter in and out of the city usually through harrolds X or rathmines the amount of times I see cyclists wait until they are right up to a car/van/etc.. before signaling or mostly not signaling at all and just expect following motorists to react I just can't understand it.

One thing I've often wondered. If it was doable, i.e. a car facing the right way could you do a Danny MacAskill on it? Would that get you into quite a bit of trouble?

cython

greenspurs wrote: »

Good god .....
Another thread about cycling that has descended into the same people posting the same posts that have been posted and fought over on dozens of cycling threads....
Don't you get bored of arguing over the same minute details , and arguing the same points with (mostly) the same posters.
Yes, its a discussion board etc etc ... but the same ones over and over ???

greenspurs

cython wrote: »

Is that directed at me ? or to the people I am posting about ?
I'm not the one saying "cycle lane parkers are wrong" .... "no they are not" ... "motorists are wrong" .... etc etc ...

I try to avoid these never ending threads of "I'm righter than you are" posts...

cython

greenspurs wrote: »

Is that directed at me ? or to the people I am posting about ?
I'm not the one saying "cycle lane parkers are wrong" .... "no they are not" ... "motorists are wrong" .... etc etc ...

I try to avoid these never ending threads of "I'm righter than you are" posts...

It's an explanation of/commentary on the phenomenon you described, nothing more, nothing less.

greenspurs

cython wrote: »

It's an explanation of/commentary on the phenomenon you described, nothing more, nothing less.

Well, I totally agree then
Are we Off Topic ? :P

Lumen

greenspurs wrote: »

I try to avoid these never ending threads of "I'm righter than you are" posts...

You appear to have failed, in this instance. :pac:

Skedaddle

There's a bit of an issue though when you put in a cycle lane on a road and provide no set down areas for cars, no off street parking / lay-bys / drop off areas.

How exactly are people meant to get in/out of their cars to let someone out if every street is lined with cyclelanes and there's absolute enforcement of no parking?

Effectively, you'd be turning every street info a 24/7 clearway.

The infrastructure simply doesn't work. We've theoretical cycle lanes in most cases that are just lines painted on the edge of roads, without any consideration for how they'll work on reality. They're better than nothing, but not by much. They satisfy some planners' imaginations that we have excellent cycling infrastructure, because they can point to lines on maps.

Cork City Centre has some examples where they've got properly segregated cycle lanes that sit between the pavement and the car parking along the edge of streets. Those actually work! They're similar to what I've seen in Dutch cities.

If you don't rejig the entire layout of the pavement and road you can't really do this. It's all about doing infrastructure on the cheap.

Also there's a total paranoia about using what are often very lightly used, ultra-wide pavements for cycling. They can be lined out with a surface or even divided with a kerb (to avoid blind pedestrians wandering under bikes or cyclists veering into pedestrian space).

Add to that the growth in paranoia about safety of kids going to school. You'd swear we lived in some kind of Mad Max hell hole with wandering would-be kidnappers and gunmen at every corner. The reality being it's one of the safest places in the world to go for a wander and that those kinds of incidents of child abduction and so on are extremely rare.

When you compare say the 1970s and 1980s to now, most of the population probably walked to school. This was an era when there was far less pedestrian infrastructure like adequate light-controlled crossings, drivers were far more aggressive on the roads, cars were less technically safe and often poorly maintained and there was a huge lack of awareness and lack of reporting of child safety issues.

2018 Ireland - loads of awareness about child safety, pretty good pedestrian infrastructure in most urban / small urban areas, drivers are genuinely more aware of pedestrians and there's CCTV everywhere in a lot of towns and cities. Not to mention that most kids carry mobile phones. Yet, if you put your 12 year old on a bus to school, some people think you're a negligent monster. They need to be delivered to the door, in absolute security.

The result is a generation of overweight, unhealthy kids that aren't getting a good walk and a society that's become paranoid about risks that are either almost non-existent or at least extremely minimal.

We've imported most of these attitudes from the USA, a country that has major issues with gun crime and all sorts of other violence and is way further down the rabbit hole of paranoid behaviours.

Ireland really isn't a scary place. For the most part it's a pretty idyllic place to grow up.

gmacww

Skedaddle wrote: »

There's a bit of an issue though when you put in a cycle lane on a road and provide no set down areas for cars, no off street parking / lay-bys / drop off areas.

I agree this is an issue however it often makes no difference whatsoever. Take Mespil road for example in Dublin CC. Every day I have to pull out of the cycle lane (solid line for a good stretch of it) to get around cars parked doing pick ups and drop offs. Across the street there are plenty of empty parking spaces all along the canal.

Skedaddle

gmacww wrote: »

I agree this is an issue however it often makes no difference whatsoever. Take Mespil road for example in Dublin CC. Every day I have to pull out of the cycle lane (solid line for a good stretch of it) to get around cars parked doing pick ups and drop offs. Across the street there are plenty of empty parking spaces all along the canal.

If you have the infrastructure in place, you can actually enforce the rules a lot more easily and people start to use it. If it's completely inconsistent and there's usually none available, people don't even look for it when it is there.

There needs to be some kind of serious guidance about how to put all if this stuff in place when a road is being resurfaced / paving projects are being done. There are some local authorities doing really good jobs of it, and I would praise Cork City Council hugely here on the recent segregated cycle lanes they put in. However there are others that are just patting themselves on the back, having painted a few lines on the side of the road. Sure half the time they don't even check if they're clear of obstacles like huge drains. I couldn't use a cycle lane in Dublin somewhere around Clontarf as it was full of drain lids and surface water drain grilles.

Did they not think you know : bikes, narrow wheels, limited / no suspensions other than spokes?!

If this stuff is done right, you don't create a conflict between cyclists and drivers. The issue at the moment is the infrastructure often puts two road users into direct conflict where you've utterly stupid designs.