Why cycle lanes will never work in Ireland

Keeks

gmacww wrote: »

WA has a very valid point though. I don't believe anyone is suggesting that we just blindly accept it. Of course it has to change, it's a behavioral change that's not limited to cycle lanes. Take my son's school for example. No cycle lane through Blessington however at start/finish time cars regularly park along the church. If I'm cycling through at that time I simply signal in plenty of time, take the lane and proceed. It's not a big issue for me.

But things won't change if people continue to believe that this is not a big issue.....

Truth being told, in this instance, its not the parking int eh cycling lane that annoyed me, its the car that pulled out in front of the bus.

What I have beings saying all down through this thread is that by accepting bad driving behavior you are actually promoting it.

Take the car that pulled out in front.
Firstly it was wrongly parked (out of laziness)
Secondly it took a quick look in it mirror, saw a bus and went " oh f*cK, i dont want to be behind the bus/Oh f**K, a bus I won't get out now with the traffic behind it etc......they spot a small gap and pulled out into it.

Now Did they take enough time to check there mirrors for a cyclist or did they pull straight out....was they sure they was nothing in their blind spot.

If they did hit a cyclist would we all hold the same positions.....

Skedaddle

I agree with the not checking mirrors thing. It's unbelievable and it's observable whether you're on a bike or in a car.
You get people pulling out without much more than a cursory glance over their shoulder.

What's really starting to annoy me in Cork City is the number of people breaking red lights. I don't mean just amber lights, I mean people actually driving through on full red.

An example of a junction that turns on to Parnell Place, there are 3 lanes, two of which go straight on, one turns right. They're controlled by traffic lights with arrows. The number of times I see cars turning on the red right arrow across a green pedestrian crossing is scary. I even saw a guy BEEP at a pedestrian who was on the crossing, having broken the lights.

I could (to a tiny degree) understand the confusion when you used to have a solid red light and a green arrow, but these junctions have RED ARROWS. It couldn't be more obvious that you cannot turn when this arrow is displaying, yet they keep doing it.

I also regularly see people blindly turn across cycle lanes as if they're not there to go into entrances / take turns. They're not checking their mirrors at all.

Also it's not just cars, a lot of less than careful cyclists sail through (often at high speed) pedestrian crossings. That really has to stop too.

I'd say a general clamp down on red light breaking for all users needs to happen. I'd actually argue for a serious telling off to pedestrians who just wander out into traffic too. There are LOADS of pedestrian crossing in this city and you still get people crossing multiple lanes of traffic without any notion of using the crossing that's maybe 20m away.

The other one that I'm finding a lot is pedestrians wandering along really clearly marked, segregated cycle lanes and then getting arsey when someone rings a bell.

Keeks

Skedaddle wrote: »

If you have the infrastructure in place, you can actually enforce the rules a lot more easily and people start to use it.

I think you have made a lot of good points in your posts, but I am convinced we need new infrastructure in place....and by infrastructure I mean cycle specific.
For sure we need better maintained roads. That a given.

I don't think it is practical to have a cycle infrastructure to suit everywhere......it will just be the high volume areas......Better enforcement of the rules of the road would be protect more people.

I maybe naive.

Skedaddle

I would actually add that one of the HUGE differences between Ireland and most of continental Europe is that there are no city / local police to enforce things like this.

In Ireland, you've fully trained Gardai doing traffic duty whereas in a lot of Europe you've local police who are effectively just dealing with minor issues and traffic. They're more akin to shopping centre security guards on a local level and do not deal with serious crime or anything like that.

A lot of countries have them. They're really just a bit like a traffic warden / street warden who deals with all that kind of stuff.

The result is that you've much more visible presence of traffic policing and it does actually keep things flowing and keeps all road users (cars, bikes and pedestrians) from engaging in muppet-like behaviours.

We only seem to have a nominal traffic corps. You really need city / local police. If you had that kind of setup, you could really clear up a lot of the traffic issues, but also a lot of petty crime issues simply by improving the visible presence of police dealing with petty issues and they simply call for back up if there's a serious problem and get the actual 'police' on the scene.

I'm not denigrating the role of doing traffic policing, and I think some people are quite happy to do just that. The problem is that when you get the main police force to do it, you get into human psychology. You don't necessarily become a Garda because you want to police parking fines and bike lane abuses. You might have an ambition to go chasing serious crime and dealing with bigger issues.

However, some people are very happy to do that kind of local street policing stuff and will take huge pride in it and should be recruited specifically for that role and not as the main police force. You've the wrong people doing the wrong job.

Thinkingaboutit

Skedaddle wrote: »

There's a bit of an issue though when you put in a cycle lane on a road and provide no set down areas for cars, no off street parking / lay-bys / drop off areas.

How exactly are people meant to get in/out of their cars to let someone out if every street is lined with cyclelanes and there's absolute enforcement of no parking?

Effectively, you'd be turning every street info a 24/7 clearway.

The infrastructure simply doesn't work. We've theoretical cycle lanes in most cases that are just lines painted on the edge of roads, without any consideration for how they'll work on reality. They're better than nothing, but not by much and they satisfy some planners' imaginations that we have excellent cycling infrastructure, because they can point to lines on maps.

Cork City Centre has some examples where they've got properly segregated cycle lanes that sit between the pavement and the car parking along the edge of streets. Those actually work! They're similar to what I've seen in Dutch cities.

If you don't rejig the entire layout of the pavement and road you can't really do this. It's all about doing infrastructure on the cheap.

There's quite an semi (not at main junctions, but the cycling is routed through lights and there is a green light for cyclists) old footpath cycle lane in the Dodder valley park and continuations along the R112 towards Dundrum, and new lanes past Churchtown. Despite the age of most of it, it is quite well done, but there are some who seem to consider it a right to walk the cycle lane, as a few foot to the ped lane is too much bother. More cyclists should clear the cycle lane walkers out.

Skedaddle

I've had a pedestrian actually give out to me in Cork for cycling IN a cycleway. She lecturered me about cycling on the "pavement" even though it was a red lane separated by kerbs and has bike symbols all over it.

Lumen

Skedaddle wrote: »

I've had a pedestrian actually give out to me in Cork for cycling IN a cycleway. She lecturered me about cycling on the "pavement" even though it was a red lane separated by kerbs and has bike symbols all over it.

:eek: there surely must be a bye-law in Cork against use of the term "pavement".

Tenzor07

This is pretty shocking!


https://twitter.com/i/web/status/965604676128342021

Tenzor07

Tenzor07 wrote: »

This is pretty shocking!


https://twitter.com/i/web/status/965604676128342021

I note in the comments were he mentions 3 Gardai thought that the driver might have been in the right , that it was akin to crossing a centre line to overtake. Jesus wept :mad:

Skedaddle

I'd be interested to see what the Garda Traffic Section make of that.
Also, surely mounting a kerb in a bus that size is actually pretty bad for the bus too, not to mention very rough for the passengers.

ED E

Skedaddle wrote: »

I'd be interested to see what the Garda Traffic Road Policing Unit

FYP

Thinkingaboutit

gmacww wrote: »

I agree this is an issue however it often makes no difference whatsoever. Take Mespil road for example in Dublin CC. Every day I have to pull out of the cycle lane (solid line for a good stretch of it) to get around cars parked doing pick ups and drop offs. Across the street there are plenty of empty parking spaces all along the canal.

People exercising their golden sovereign right to park right beside their destination, everyone else be damned.

There's challenge enough cycling along there safely even without that.

Wishbone Ash

Keeks wrote: »

Because we shouldn't accept bad road behavior.........

I am not a Garda nor are the majority of cyclists here so what do you expect us to do? I'd prefer to get on with my cycling than engaging with every road user who has transgressed the road traffic regulations.

Steoller

I'm no fan of Robert Peel, but what Wishbone Ash said above, reminds me of  his Principles of Policing. "The police are the only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen." If you want to see change, you have to do something about it.

Keeks

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I am not a Garda nor are the majority of cyclists here so what do you expect us to do? I'd prefer to get on with my cycling than engaging with every road user who has transgressed the road traffic regulations.

The only way to get anything done is through political means and you need to create a large enough voter base for your agenda to make it worthwhile for a politician to sit up and take notice and make it their agenda.

Now that is difficult as politicians are only interested in their own political needs.

And this is where advocacy groups are missing a trick. They are focusing only from one perspective.... Anti- Drink driving campaigns only focus on drink drivers, Speeding campaigns only focus on speeders, cyclist only focus on cycle lanes etc
You get the point

In this example, we see a cyclist on top of a bus complaining about cars parked in a cycle lane.
Would they have done the same if the cars were parked on a double yellow line?
Both would affect me equally as a motorist or cyclist. There is an obstacle there that shouldn't be.

And all types of bad road behavior needs to be highlighted....cyclists breaking red lights, cars illegally overtaking, buses speeding etc etc....

Once you highlight that then is a lot of road traffic issues and violation then maybe resources could be put into tackling it.

Information campaigns aren't enough, but it tell you something about the state of Irish road users when the RSA feel the need to have a campaign about how to use a roadabout

https://vimeo.com/38376515

Wishbone Ash

Keeks wrote: »

The only way to get anything done is through political means and you need to create a large enough voter base for your agenda to make it worthwhile for a politician to sit up and take notice and make it their agenda....

But it doesn't bother me enough to let it affect me. I've enough going on in my life without worrying about vehicles parked on cycle tracks.

Shouldn't the people who are bothered about it be better off doing something about it rather than posting here?

Steoller

There's always something better to do. That doesn't mean the mundane problems shouldn't be addressed.