Why cycle lanes will never work in Ireland

Slipperydodger

Why should Ireland invest in cycle lanes when no cars actually observe it. Complete indifference by motorists towards cycle infrastructure means its just too dangerous to cycle in Ireland, particularly for young people. Outside Colaiste Choilm, Ballincollig this morning. The Guards really need to clamp down on this or else it wont change!

mrcheez

Slipperydodger wrote: »

Why should Ireland invest in cycle lanes when no cars actually observe it. Complete indifference by motorists towards cycle infrastructure means its just too dangerous to cycle in Ireland, particularly for young people. Outside Colaiste Choilm, Ballincollig this morning. The Guards really need to clamp down on this or else it wont change!

I guess in those situations you just gotta take the lane

VW 1

The bus also goes straight through the amber light instead of stopping. Everyone's at fault!

the dark phantom

Its the Irish way

cython

VW 1 wrote: »

The bus also goes straight through the amber light instead of stopping. Everyone's at fault!

To be fair to the bus driver, the road layout at those lights is crappy - even if the bus could have stopped safely before the lights, it would have been blocking up the yellow box which is simply trading one violation for another. When the driver entered said box the light was green, so proceeding through the lights (in particular as I'm not sure stopping would have been feasible without fairly harsh braking) was IMHO the preferable option there. Were it a car I'd be less forgiving, as they could in theory sit in the end of the box without necessarily being an obstruction depending on the layout.

Wishbone Ash

I don't really see the point of this thread. The same thing could be said about almost every other aspect of road traffic regulations. Personally I prefer to see the Gardai concentrate their limited resources on close passes, mobile phone use, excessive speed, red/amber light breaking etc.

While parking on a cycle track may be inconvenient or annoying, I don't generally find it to be dangerous for me and I'd just accept that it's going to happen outside a school and take appropriate action.

rollingscone

I don't know WA I think we need more daily threads on how cycling is so terribly dangerous.

It's really helpful for spreading an atmosphere of anxiety and distrust on the roads...wait

Lumen

Slipperydodger wrote: »

Complete indifference by motorists towards cycle infrastructure means its just too dangerous to cycle in Ireland, particularly for young people.

Just stop with this crap, please.

If there's a car in a cycle lane, look, indicate, move out around it.

If you're incapable of doing that, then yes, cycling is not for you.

buffalo

To be fair, it's not just cycling infrastructure that's abused in school zones. If you were to go by the pick-up/drop-off hours at many schools, you might well start a thread 'why roads will never work in Ireland'.

magicbastarder

mumble mumble perceived danger versus actual danger mumble deterrent for nervous cyclists to start cycling mumble needlessly provocative thread title mumble deja vu mumble i can't even but i did.

Hurrache

VW 1 wrote: »

The bus also goes straight through the amber light instead of stopping. Everyone's at fault!

I was thinking that but there's poor placement of the yellow box. The light was green before the bus passed into it and if it was to stop it would block the yellow box, so either way it would commit an offence of some sort.

The school really needs to try sort that out, if it doesn't work, get the gardai involved.


edit: I see Cython has already posted similar!

matrim

buffalo wrote: »

To be fair, it's not just cycling infrastructure that's abused in school zones. If you were to go by the pick-up/drop-off hours at many schools, you might well start a thread 'why roads will never work in Ireland'.

I made the mistake of driving past a school at closing time a couple of weeks ago. All spots left and right of the road were taken so the car in front of me decides to just stop in the middle of the road, turn off his engine, get out and walk away while ignoring me and the 4 cars behind me beeping him.

Moflojo

Lumen wrote: »

Just stop with this crap, please.

If there's a car in a cycle lane, look, indicate, move out around it.

If you're incapable of doing that, then yes, cycling is not for you.

I think you're incorrectly assuming that all cyclists are adults and are capable and confident enough to mix it with motor vehicles on a road.

If we were to make your requirements for cycling mandatory we'd probably be excluding everyone under the age of 12 from cycling.

Hurrache

matrim wrote: »

I made the mistake of driving past a school at closing time a couple of weeks ago. All spots left and right of the road were taken so the car in front of me decides to just stop in the middle of the road, turn off his engine, get out and walk away while ignoring me and the 4 cars behind me beeping him.

Sounds like my kids school, and the gardai did get involved, but didn't do a whole lot. There's a footpath only on one side of the road and parents park fully on it, all 4 wheels. So where do the kids walk? Either in the mud at this time of the year, or on the road. Then the ones that arrive late will literally stop on the road and wait until there's space in the drop off area holding up traffic behind.

No self awareness.

07Lapierre

Hurrache wrote: »

No self awareness.

I disagree..there's plenty of SELF awareness!

bucketybuck

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

While parking on a cycle track may be inconvenient or annoying

I don't really get why this is such a problem for cyclists to be honest. If I'm driving and I come up to a car parked on the road I just slow down, indicate, wait for a safe time to overtake and then go on about my day. Whats the difference for something parked in a cycle lane?

Macy0161

bucketybuck wrote: »

I don't really get why this is such a problem for cyclists to be honest. If I'm driving and I come up to a car parked on the road I just slow down, indicate, wait for a safe time to overtake and then go on about my day. Whats the difference for something parked in a cycle lane?

Well apart from being another illegal road traffic offence that never gets enforced, it happens in grade separated cycle lanes too, so you have to negotiate a kerb, twice.

It's pure ignorance more than anything, but given the amount of cars parked on footpaths and ignored, often forcing buggys and wheelchair users onto the road, we can hardly expect cycle lanes to be respected. Can't possibly affect other car drivers, when vulnerable road users can be (at best) inconvenienced, quite often for a 20m further walk to the shop!

Wishbone Ash

bucketybuck wrote: »

I don't really get why this is such a problem for cyclists to be honest. If I'm driving and I come up to a car parked on the road I just slow down, indicate, wait for a safe time to overtake and then go on about my day. Whats the difference for something parked in a cycle lane?

That's the point I was making - it's no big deal for me.

(As has been pointed out, it may be for children).

zulutango

bucketybuck wrote: »

I don't really get why this is such a problem for cyclists to be honest. If I'm driving and I come up to a car parked on the road I just slow down, indicate, wait for a safe time to overtake and then go on about my day. Whats the difference for something parked in a cycle lane?

It's quite dangerous for younger and elderly cyclists to be fair. Many cyclists are fit and able and well able to deal with a parked car in a cycle lane, but we should be allowing for the young, elderly and less experienced. It is reasonable to expect that there is safe infrastructure for cyclists, given the massive benefits to society of cycling, so parking in cycling lanes shouldn't be condoned or shrugged off just because you can deal with it.

Wishbone Ash

Moflojo wrote: »

I think you're incorrectly assuming that all cyclists are adults and are capable and confident enough to mix it with motor vehicles on a road.....

Given that 99% of roads don't have cycle tracks, I don't see your point.

Kaisr Sose

Lumen wrote: »

Just stop with this crap, please.

If there's a car in a cycle lane, look, indicate, move out around it.

If you're incapable of doing that, then yes, cycling is not for you.

Is the point not that the vehicle is ignoring the effective clearway in the first place?

Cycle lanes are not free parking...by parking in them, motorists create an avoidable hazard. Yes, it can be navigate safely, but that’s not the solution...The vehicle should park somewhere that does not create a hazard...

mr spuckler

VW 1 wrote: »

The bus also goes straight through the amber light instead of stopping. Everyone's at fault!

i'd be more concerned by the car which pulled out in front of the bus assuming that an indicator was a right of way!

Chips Lovell

mr spuckler wrote: »

i'd be more concerned by the car which pulled out in front of the bus assuming that an indicator was a right of way!

I'm just surprised they even indicated.

Keeks

07Lapierre wrote: »

I disagree..there's plenty of SELF awareness!

Plenty of Self and not enough Awareness

thats the problem!

Keeks

bucketybuck wrote: »

I don't really get why this is such a problem for cyclists to be honest. If I'm driving and I come up to a car parked on the road I just slow down, indicate, wait for a safe time to overtake and then go on about my day. Whats the difference for something parked in a cycle lane?

The problem as has been pointed out is that you are not allowed to park in a cycle lane.

Now this of issues:

The driver is either ignorant of the Rules of the road and as such possibly doesn't know other aspects of the rules of the Road and are likely to be driving by what they "perceived" to be right rather than the actual rules. This is dangers as over time your perception will chang
1. The driver is knowingly breaking the rules as they deem it to be nonsense, and will likely knowingly break other rules (speeding for example), making them even more dangerous

In the end up we have a country full of people who don't follow the rules.

The rules are there to protect everyone, not just the few, and if they are follow we will have less people killed on our roads........its that simple.

Lumen

Deedsie wrote: »

Easy for an adult, not so easy for a 40kg school pupil to take the lane in heavy traffic like that. Disgraceful behaviour from those motorists

How does the mass of the child affect their ability to change road position?

Lumen

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Is the point not that the vehicle is ignoring the effective clearway in the first place?

Cycle lanes are not free parking...by parking in them, motorists create an avoidable hazard. Yes, it can be navigate safely, but that’s not the solution...The vehicle should park somewhere that does not create a hazard...

Whilst I agree that the parking is inconsiderate, if it can be navigated safely then there is no risk.

Cycle lanes do not improve safety, so their absence does not make the road less safe.

magicbastarder

Lumen wrote: »

Cycle lanes do not improve safety, so their absence does not make the road less safe.

if they create an improved *perception* of safety, that drives cyclist numbers - well, there's an argument to be made that they will improve safety in that manner.

just because a cyclist can navigate around a car doesn't mean that it's a neutral manoeuvre to have to make. if it's putting off nervous cyclists when they see that cycling infrastructure is not policed, and regularly can't be used by bikes, that is a genuine problem.

droidus

Technically you are allowed park in a non-mandatory lane for a short period, that's my recollection at least.

This is a chronic problem. I used to take the bus from Parnell square Northbound opposite and down a bit from the Garden of remembrance. From about 8:45 on parents would park and wait at the bustops for the school to open, preventing buses from pulling in and sometimes causing tailbacks of 20 or more buses all the way back beyond Dorset st. Often there would be parking across the road near the Gate theatre. it was the same dozen or so drivers every morning, completely oblivious or apathetic towards the fact that they were delaying hundreds of people for their own convenience. The school could do nothing, the guards didnt care.

Grassey

bucketybuck wrote: »

I don't really get why this is such a problem for cyclists to be honest. If I'm driving and I come up to a car parked on the road I just slow down, indicate, wait for a safe time to overtake and then go on about my day. Whats the difference for something parked in a cycle lane?

Because most motorists won't let a cyclist merge in. 'Their' lane is clear so they can continue to potter along. How many would stop and let a cyclist stopped behind an illegally parked car indicating to merge out? Or does a cyclist A) walk around the car on the footpath and remount past obstruction, wait behind the parked car until the driver returns?

bucketybuck

Grassey wrote: »

Because most motorists won't let a cyclist merge in. 'Their' lane is clear so they can continue to potter along. How many would stop and let a cyclist stopped behind an illegally parked car indicating to merge out? Or does a cyclist A) walk around the car on the footpath and remount past obstruction, wait behind the parked car until the driver returns?

I really don't know what you are getting at here, surely all the cyclist does is the same thing every vehicle does approaching an obstruction? Namely, they see an obstruction ahead, they slow down, indicate, and overtake the obstruction when it is safe to do so?

Respectfully, this exact scenario already happens every day so its not really a question of what the cyclist should do, more a question of why there is so much chagrin over cyclists having to pass obstacles when it is something that all road users have to do.

WoollyRedHat

Lumen wrote: »

Just stop with this crap, please.

If there's a car in a cycle lane, look, indicate, move out around it.

If you're incapable of doing that, then yes, cycling is not for you.

Can i ask what happens if a car is completely blocking a cycle lane in a blind spot, what then? Gives the cyclist very little time to essentially swerve onto the road; into a bus lane. I've seen this numeros times before; big vans usually.

Grassey

If traffic is moving and there is plenty of space there is no issue.

However the difference being that if the lane of cars is bumper to bumper but moving along where does a cyclist overtake the obstruction?

If the car parked in the lane was to flick on the indicator to merge another car will let them out. If a cyclist hasn't been able to merge by the time they reach the obstruction they are stuck because no motorist is going to stop in their lane to let them around it.

Lumen

magicbastarder wrote: »

if they create an improved *perception* of safety, that drives cyclist numbers - well, there's an argument to be made that they will improve safety in that manner.

just because a cyclist can navigate around a car doesn't mean that it's a neutral manoeuvre to have to make. if it's putting off nervous cyclists when they see that cycling infrastructure is not policed, and regularly can't be used by bikes, that is a genuine problem.

Ah sure, whatever. That's all perfectly arguable. You may care about pandering to snowflakes, I don't, but that's a separate issue to to the assertion I was responding to, which was:

"Complete indifference by motorists towards cycle infrastructure means its just too dangerous to cycle in Ireland, particularly for young people."

...which is quite clearly absolute nonsense.

Keeks

bucketybuck wrote: »

I really don't know what you are getting at here, surely all the cyclist does is the same thing every vehicle does approaching an obstruction? Namely, they see an obstruction ahead, they slow down, indicate, and overtake the obstruction when it is safe to do so?

Respectfully, this exact scenario already happens every day so its not really a question of what the cyclist should do, more a question of why there is so much chagrin over cyclists having to pass obstacles when it is something that all road users have to do.

I think you a focusing a bit too much over wheather this is a motorist/cyclist issue. This is not just about cyclists.....as can be seen in the clip it affects all road users....even buses

There is an obstacle there because a bad road behavior. It is not right to just accept that.

If it was a double yellow line rather than a cycle line would you be making the same comment?

Road users shouldn't be parking here in this place, and the sooner all road users obey the rules the safer roads will be for everyone!

Lumen

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

Can i ask what happens if a car is completely blocking a cycle lane in a blind spot, what then? Gives the cyclist very little time to essentially swerve onto the road; into a bus lane. I've seen this numeros times before; big vans usually.

All road users should proceed at a speed such that they can stop in the space that they can see to be clear and is likely to remain so.

VW 1

bucketybuck wrote: »

I really don't know what you are getting at here, surely all the cyclist does is the same thing every vehicle does approaching an obstruction? Namely, they see an obstruction ahead, they slow down, indicate, and overtake the obstruction when it is safe to do so?

I don't see it as dangerous, and it's an obstacle that can be easily passed, I find it annoying more than anything else.

However, if a car was to park for any sort of short period in the regular driving lane, how many cars would be just ok with indicating and moving around the obstruction? Horns would be going pretty quickly for impeding the cars progress.

magicbastarder

bucketybuck wrote: »

I really don't know what you are getting at here, surely all the cyclist does is the same thing every vehicle does approaching an obstruction? Namely, they see an obstruction ahead, they slow down, indicate, and overtake the obstruction when it is safe to do so?

Respectfully, this exact scenario already happens every day so its not really a question of what the cyclist should do, more a question of why there is so much chagrin over cyclists having to pass obstacles when it is something that all road users have to do.

so if there's a car parked every 50m in a cycle lane, i've to slow down, indicate, pull out, etc., each time?
can you not see why that's an issue?

and it *doesn't* happen all road users. how many cars in the 'driving' lane have to deal with cars fairly permanently parked in the driving lane?

Keeks

Lumen wrote: »

"Complete indifference by motorists towards cycle infrastructure means its just too dangerous to cycle in Ireland, particularly for young people."

...which is quite clearly absolute nonsense.

It should read "Complete indifference by all road users towards the rules of the road"

bucketybuck

VW 1 wrote: »

However, if a car was to park for any sort of short period in the regular driving lane, how many cars would be just ok with indicating and moving around the obstruction? Horns would be going pretty quickly for impeding the cars progress.

magicbastarder wrote: »

and it *doesn't* happen all road users. how many cars in the 'driving' lane have to deal with cars fairly permanently parked in the driving lane?

Perhaps its an upbringing thing, I grew up in smaller towns and villages where it was incredibly common for people to park on one side of the road. Drive down the main street of the place I grew up and you will see a row of cars parked in what is technically the driving lane, and thats quite apart from all the side roads and by roads spanning the country that commonly would have a vehicle stopped by the side of the road for whatever reason.

Actually, even apart from the countryside, what happens in every estate everywhere if not cars parked on the road and impeding traffic?

Lumen

Keeks wrote: »

It should read "Complete indifference by all road users towards the rules of the road"

Whilst I agree that there are idiots on all forms of transport, and everyone breaks rules to some degree, it's unfair to paint everyone with exactly the same brush.

There are many conscientious road users. They just don't draw attention to themselves, because they're conscientious.

mathie

Parking like that reminds me of the Broken Window policy in New York

https://www.city-journal.org/html/how-new-york-became-safe-full-story-13197.html

magicbastarder

bucketybuck wrote: »

Perhaps its an upbringing thing, I grew up in smaller towns and villages where it was incredibly common for people to park on one side of the road. Drive down the main street of the place I grew up and you will see a row of cars parked in what is technically the driving lane, and thats quite apart from all the side roads and by roads spanning the country that commonly would have a vehicle stopped by the side of the road for whatever reason.

this is not cars parking in car lanes intended for cars. this is cars parking in cycle lanes intended for bikes.
the more people park this way, the fewer people who (probably) cycle. a motorist doing this is not impacting other motorists, they're impacting cyclists and the 'can you not just navigate around it' response could be used to justify parking on a footpath, too.

Keeks

Lumen wrote: »

and everyone breaks rules to some degree, it's unfair to paint everyone with exactly the same brush.

Haven't you just painted everyone with the same brush by saying Everyone breaks the rules to some degree.

And that is the problem....once you start to break rules, you enter into your own judgement as to what to break and what not to break......and things like morality and perceived risk come into play.

Keeks

magicbastarder wrote: »

this is not cars parking in car lanes intended for cars. this is cars parking in cycle lanes intended for bikes.
the more people park this way, the fewer people who (probably) cycle. a motorist doing this is not impacting other motorists, they're impacting cyclists and the 'can you not just navigate around it' response could be used to justify parking on a footpath, too.

Not be be pedantic, just trying to move te argument away from motorist v cyclist.....

This does affect all road users, as a cycle lane is not big enough to parking a car in, so any traffic will generally have to cross the center median liene and into oncoming traffic (even partially), risking the usual clash of mirror or worse, as they will have to swerve from time to time to avoid hitting opening car doors.

It impacts all road users.

Lumen

Keeks wrote: »

Haven't you just painted everyone with the same brush by saying Everyone breaks the rules to some degree.

No, because not all rule breaking is the same.

We recognise this as a society by, for instance, treating littering different from murder.

Keeks wrote: »

And that is the problem....once you start to break rules, you enter into your own judgement as to what to break and what not to break......and things like morality and perceived risk come into play.

Are you suggesting that littering is a slippery slope to murder?

droidus

Or even worse, that law = morality.

Keeks

Lumen wrote: »

No, because not all rule breaking is the same.

We recognise this as a society by, for instance, treating littering different from murder.



Are you suggesting that littering is a slippery slope to murder?

No I think you have it wrong.....

Both are the same as they are both against the rules (laws)...the difference is the Penalty for breaking them.

You still shouldn't do either....

clod71

It's simple enough... Instead of a simple painted line use a kerb to protect that lane, especially in certain areas, like schools, etc... If the cars can't go in, they will not go in.
Something like that shoud do

http://ardcroney.ie/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/h/a/half_round_top_concrete_kerb.jpg

Chips Lovell

magicbastarder wrote: »

if they create an improved *perception* of safety, that drives cyclist numbers - well, there's an argument to be made that they will improve safety in that manner.

I don't know about this. The problem is that you can't festoon every road with cycle lanes. I've had plenty of people tell me they'd cycle to work except there's no cycle lane for much of the way.

Building cycle lanes for the perception of safety has the opposite-than-intended effect. Rather than convey that cycling is safe, it reinforces the impression that it's dangerous.

It's like the whole helmet hysteria.

Lumen

Keeks wrote: »

Both are the same as they are both against the rules (laws)...the difference is the Penalty for breaking them.

I don't think it's possible to reason with someone who thinks that littering and murder are the same.