Why cycle lanes will never work in Ireland

Lumen · 21-02-2018 7:41pm

Deedsie wrote: »

Oh the son of a seasoned cyclist is a confident safe cyclist himself... That must be true of all school children so...

I didn't say he was confident and safe. I said he was better at mountain biking than me. If you'd seen me on a mountain bike you would realise how limited that appraisal is :pac:

Wishbone Ash · 21-02-2018 7:49pm

TallGlass wrote: »

Amber means prepare to stop if safe to do so. Stopping a double decker bus in that space of time, would have been highly dangerous. Bus driver done the safe thing and also obeyed the rules of the road.

Amber means STOP unless it is dangerous to do so. It doesn't mean to 'prepare' for anything. When i was doing truck and bus lessons, one of the first things taught is to 'read' the road ahead as large vehicles are much more difficult to manoeuvre than a car. When approaching a green light assume it is going to change.

magicbastarder · 21-02-2018 9:35pm

someday, Lumen's son will stumble across that post and will have to ask his da why he called his beloved son 'unremarkable'.

ED E · 21-02-2018 9:42pm

Odd question, but do you speak with a central european accent perhaps Lumen?

GreeBo · 21-02-2018 9:47pm

Lumen wrote: »

No. This isn't an issue if you take the lane. Do you actually cycle at all?

At what point do you take the lane exactly?

At some stage you need to overtake the parked car, I.e. Move further into the driving lane.
This isn't possible safely if there is a car closely overtaking you.

And yes I do, so you can take your ridiculous condescension somewhere else, thanks.

Wishbone Ash · 21-02-2018 10:14pm

GreeBo wrote: »

At what point do you take the lane exactly?

At some stage you need to overtake the parked car, I.e. Move further into the driving lane.
This isn't possible safely if there is a car closely overtaking you....

Read the road ahead. If you are approaching a school at opening/closing time, assume there will be vehicles parked in the cycle track. Reading the road ahead will give you time to check behind and signal your intention and manoeuvre in good time. Most roads outside schools have a reduced speed limit.

Many cyclists here say things such as "Every day there are cars parked on the cycle track outside......blah, blah," Why not avoid it then and cycle on the road?

I see so many cyclists waiting until they cycle right up to an obstacle before making a move. Can't get my head around that.

GreeBo · 21-02-2018 10:43pm

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Read the road ahead. If you are approaching a school at opening/closing time, assume there will be vehicles parked in the cycle track. Reading the road ahead will give you time to check behind and signal your intention and manoeuvre in good time. Most roads outside schools have a reduced speed limit.

Many cyclists here say things such as "Every day there are cars parked on the cycle track outside......blah, blah," Why not avoid it then and cycle on the road?

I see so many cyclists waiting until they cycle right up to an obstacle before making a move. Can't get my head around that.

It's impractical to cycle down the middle of the lane just because there is one car parked to the side.
It also obstructs other traffic needlessly, which is the whole problem with people parking on the side of the road.
In any case my point still stands, a passing car can and tbh usually will not leave enough room for you to both miss an opening door and have 1.5M clearance.
Take Ranelagh for example, with cars on both sides, in congested traffic there isn't room to pass between both stopped cars and avoid an opening door..No matter how much road you take.

Bottom line, this should be prevented, not excused.

Wishbone Ash · 21-02-2018 10:58pm

GreeBo wrote: »

....Bottom line, this should be prevented, not excused.

I don't think anyone would disagree with you that it should be prevented and I didn't hear anyone excusing it. It's simply a fact of life that has to be dealt with.

greenspurs · 22-02-2018 8:15am

Good god .....
Another thread about cycling that has descended into the same people posting the same posts that have been posted and fought over on dozens of cycling threads....
Don't you get bored of arguing over the same minute details , and arguing the same points with (mostly) the same posters.
Yes, its a discussion board etc etc ... but the same ones over and over ???

Keeks · 22-02-2018 8:18am

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Many cyclists here say things such as "Every day there are cars parked on the cycle track outside......blah, blah," Why not avoid it then and cycle on the road?

Because we shouldn't accept bad road behavior........cycle lanes are not designed to be parked in and as such pose a hazard to All road users not just cyclists

Just because cyclists do the most moaning about it just make it any less valid of an argument.

Macy0161 · 22-02-2018 8:24am

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

When approaching a green light assume it is going to change.

That's what I was taught in a car too, and I assume that hasn't changed in the meantime. Like speeding/ shooting fish in a barrel, amber gambling and red light jumping won't be solved until there's enforcement, which really means cameras, which aren't on the agenda at all!

clod71 wrote: »

It's simple enough... Instead of a simple painted line use a kerb to protect that lane, especially in certain areas, like schools, etc... If the cars can't go in, they will not go in.
Something like that shoud do

Grade seperation with just a kerb doesn't work in my experience. If a kerb was enough, we'd never see parking on pavements. I'd nearly go as far as say it encourages parking, as the motorists feel they are off the road!

gmacww · 22-02-2018 8:29am

Keeks wrote: »

Because we shouldn't accept bad road behavior........cycle lanes are not designed to be parked in and as such pose a hazard to All road users not just cyclists

Just because cyclists do the most moaning about it just make it any less valid of an argument.

WA has a very valid point though. I don't believe anyone is suggesting that we just blindly accept it. Of course it has to change, it's a behavioral change that's not limited to cycle lanes. Take my son's school for example. No cycle lane through Blessington however at start/finish time cars regularly park along the church. If I'm cycling through at that time I simply signal in plenty of time, take the lane and proceed. It's not a big issue for me.

I fully echo WA comment's regarding signaling. As a commuter in and out of the city usually through harrolds X or rathmines the amount of times I see cyclists wait until they are right up to a car/van/etc.. before signaling or mostly not signaling at all and just expect following motorists to react I just can't understand it.

One thing I've often wondered. If it was doable, i.e. a car facing the right way could you do a Danny MacAskill on it? Would that get you into quite a bit of trouble?

cython · 22-02-2018 8:34am

greenspurs wrote: »

Good god .....
Another thread about cycling that has descended into the same people posting the same posts that have been posted and fought over on dozens of cycling threads....
Don't you get bored of arguing over the same minute details , and arguing the same points with (mostly) the same posters.
Yes, its a discussion board etc etc ... but the same ones over and over ???

greenspurs · 22-02-2018 9:04am

cython wrote: »

Is that directed at me ? or to the people I am posting about ?
I'm not the one saying "cycle lane parkers are wrong" .... "no they are not" ... "motorists are wrong" .... etc etc ...

I try to avoid these never ending threads of "I'm righter than you are" posts...

cython · 22-02-2018 9:05am

greenspurs wrote: »

Is that directed at me ? or to the people I am posting about ?
I'm not the one saying "cycle lane parkers are wrong" .... "no they are not" ... "motorists are wrong" .... etc etc ...

I try to avoid these never ending threads of "I'm righter than you are" posts...

It's an explanation of/commentary on the phenomenon you described, nothing more, nothing less.

greenspurs · 22-02-2018 9:09am

cython wrote: »

It's an explanation of/commentary on the phenomenon you described, nothing more, nothing less.

Well, I totally agree then

Are we Off Topic ? :P

Lumen · 22-02-2018 9:14am

greenspurs wrote: »

I try to avoid these never ending threads of "I'm righter than you are" posts...

You appear to have failed, in this instance. :pac:

Skedaddle · 22-02-2018 9:23am

There's a bit of an issue though when you put in a cycle lane on a road and provide no set down areas for cars, no off street parking / lay-bys / drop off areas.

How exactly are people meant to get in/out of their cars to let someone out if every street is lined with cyclelanes and there's absolute enforcement of no parking?

Effectively, you'd be turning every street info a 24/7 clearway.

The infrastructure simply doesn't work. We've theoretical cycle lanes in most cases that are just lines painted on the edge of roads, without any consideration for how they'll work on reality. They're better than nothing, but not by much. They satisfy some planners' imaginations that we have excellent cycling infrastructure, because they can point to lines on maps.

Cork City Centre has some examples where they've got properly segregated cycle lanes that sit between the pavement and the car parking along the edge of streets. Those actually work! They're similar to what I've seen in Dutch cities.

If you don't rejig the entire layout of the pavement and road you can't really do this. It's all about doing infrastructure on the cheap.

Also there's a total paranoia about using what are often very lightly used, ultra-wide pavements for cycling. They can be lined out with a surface or even divided with a kerb (to avoid blind pedestrians wandering under bikes or cyclists veering into pedestrian space).

Add to that the growth in paranoia about safety of kids going to school. You'd swear we lived in some kind of Mad Max hell hole with wandering would-be kidnappers and gunmen at every corner. The reality being it's one of the safest places in the world to go for a wander and that those kinds of incidents of child abduction and so on are extremely rare.

When you compare say the 1970s and 1980s to now, most of the population probably walked to school. This was an era when there was far less pedestrian infrastructure like adequate light-controlled crossings, drivers were far more aggressive on the roads, cars were less technically safe and often poorly maintained and there was a huge lack of awareness and lack of reporting of child safety issues.

2018 Ireland - loads of awareness about child safety, pretty good pedestrian infrastructure in most urban / small urban areas, drivers are genuinely more aware of pedestrians and there's CCTV everywhere in a lot of towns and cities. Not to mention that most kids carry mobile phones. Yet, if you put your 12 year old on a bus to school, some people think you're a negligent monster. They need to be delivered to the door, in absolute security.

The result is a generation of overweight, unhealthy kids that aren't getting a good walk and a society that's become paranoid about risks that are either almost non-existent or at least extremely minimal.

We've imported most of these attitudes from the USA, a country that has major issues with gun crime and all sorts of other violence and is way further down the rabbit hole of paranoid behaviours.

Ireland really isn't a scary place. For the most part it's a pretty idyllic place to grow up.

gmacww · 22-02-2018 9:39am

Skedaddle wrote: »

There's a bit of an issue though when you put in a cycle lane on a road and provide no set down areas for cars, no off street parking / lay-bys / drop off areas.

I agree this is an issue however it often makes no difference whatsoever. Take Mespil road for example in Dublin CC. Every day I have to pull out of the cycle lane (solid line for a good stretch of it) to get around cars parked doing pick ups and drop offs. Across the street there are plenty of empty parking spaces all along the canal.

Skedaddle · 22-02-2018 9:40am

gmacww wrote: »

I agree this is an issue however it often makes no difference whatsoever. Take Mespil road for example in Dublin CC. Every day I have to pull out of the cycle lane (solid line for a good stretch of it) to get around cars parked doing pick ups and drop offs. Across the street there are plenty of empty parking spaces all along the canal.

If you have the infrastructure in place, you can actually enforce the rules a lot more easily and people start to use it. If it's completely inconsistent and there's usually none available, people don't even look for it when it is there.

There needs to be some kind of serious guidance about how to put all if this stuff in place when a road is being resurfaced / paving projects are being done. There are some local authorities doing really good jobs of it, and I would praise Cork City Council hugely here on the recent segregated cycle lanes they put in. However there are others that are just patting themselves on the back, having painted a few lines on the side of the road. Sure half the time they don't even check if they're clear of obstacles like huge drains. I couldn't use a cycle lane in Dublin somewhere around Clontarf as it was full of drain lids and surface water drain grilles.

Did they not think you know : bikes, narrow wheels, limited / no suspensions other than spokes?!

If this stuff is done right, you don't create a conflict between cyclists and drivers. The issue at the moment is the infrastructure often puts two road users into direct conflict where you've utterly stupid designs.

Keeks · 22-02-2018 9:44am

gmacww wrote: »

WA has a very valid point though. I don't believe anyone is suggesting that we just blindly accept it. Of course it has to change, it's a behavioral change that's not limited to cycle lanes. Take my son's school for example. No cycle lane through Blessington however at start/finish time cars regularly park along the church. If I'm cycling through at that time I simply signal in plenty of time, take the lane and proceed. It's not a big issue for me.

But things won't change if people continue to believe that this is not a big issue.....

Truth being told, in this instance, its not the parking int eh cycling lane that annoyed me, its the car that pulled out in front of the bus.

What I have beings saying all down through this thread is that by accepting bad driving behavior you are actually promoting it.

Take the car that pulled out in front.
Firstly it was wrongly parked (out of laziness)
Secondly it took a quick look in it mirror, saw a bus and went " oh f*cK, i dont want to be behind the bus/Oh f**K, a bus I won't get out now with the traffic behind it etc......they spot a small gap and pulled out into it.

Now Did they take enough time to check there mirrors for a cyclist or did they pull straight out....was they sure they was nothing in their blind spot.

If they did hit a cyclist would we all hold the same positions.....

Skedaddle · 22-02-2018 9:48am

I agree with the not checking mirrors thing. It's unbelievable and it's observable whether you're on a bike or in a car.
You get people pulling out without much more than a cursory glance over their shoulder.

What's really starting to annoy me in Cork City is the number of people breaking red lights. I don't mean just amber lights, I mean people actually driving through on full red.

An example of a junction that turns on to Parnell Place, there are 3 lanes, two of which go straight on, one turns right. They're controlled by traffic lights with arrows. The number of times I see cars turning on the red right arrow across a green pedestrian crossing is scary. I even saw a guy BEEP at a pedestrian who was on the crossing, having broken the lights.

I could (to a tiny degree) understand the confusion when you used to have a solid red light and a green arrow, but these junctions have RED ARROWS. It couldn't be more obvious that you cannot turn when this arrow is displaying, yet they keep doing it.

I also regularly see people blindly turn across cycle lanes as if they're not there to go into entrances / take turns. They're not checking their mirrors at all.

Also it's not just cars, a lot of less than careful cyclists sail through (often at high speed) pedestrian crossings. That really has to stop too.

I'd say a general clamp down on red light breaking for all users needs to happen. I'd actually argue for a serious telling off to pedestrians who just wander out into traffic too. There are LOADS of pedestrian crossing in this city and you still get people crossing multiple lanes of traffic without any notion of using the crossing that's maybe 20m away.

The other one that I'm finding a lot is pedestrians wandering along really clearly marked, segregated cycle lanes and then getting arsey when someone rings a bell.

Keeks · 22-02-2018 9:56am

Skedaddle wrote: »

If you have the infrastructure in place, you can actually enforce the rules a lot more easily and people start to use it.

I think you have made a lot of good points in your posts, but I am convinced we need new infrastructure in place....and by infrastructure I mean cycle specific.
For sure we need better maintained roads. That a given.

I don't think it is practical to have a cycle infrastructure to suit everywhere......it will just be the high volume areas......Better enforcement of the rules of the road would be protect more people.

I maybe naive.

Skedaddle · 22-02-2018 9:57am

I would actually add that one of the HUGE differences between Ireland and most of continental Europe is that there are no city / local police to enforce things like this.

In Ireland, you've fully trained Gardai doing traffic duty whereas in a lot of Europe you've local police who are effectively just dealing with minor issues and traffic. They're more akin to shopping centre security guards on a local level and do not deal with serious crime or anything like that.

A lot of countries have them. They're really just a bit like a traffic warden / street warden who deals with all that kind of stuff.

The result is that you've much more visible presence of traffic policing and it does actually keep things flowing and keeps all road users (cars, bikes and pedestrians) from engaging in muppet-like behaviours.

We only seem to have a nominal traffic corps. You really need city / local police. If you had that kind of setup, you could really clear up a lot of the traffic issues, but also a lot of petty crime issues simply by improving the visible presence of police dealing with petty issues and they simply call for back up if there's a serious problem and get the actual 'police' on the scene.

I'm not denigrating the role of doing traffic policing, and I think some people are quite happy to do just that. The problem is that when you get the main police force to do it, you get into human psychology. You don't necessarily become a Garda because you want to police parking fines and bike lane abuses. You might have an ambition to go chasing serious crime and dealing with bigger issues.

However, some people are very happy to do that kind of local street policing stuff and will take huge pride in it and should be recruited specifically for that role and not as the main police force. You've the wrong people doing the wrong job.

Thinkingaboutit · 22-02-2018 10:26am

Skedaddle wrote: »

There's a bit of an issue though when you put in a cycle lane on a road and provide no set down areas for cars, no off street parking / lay-bys / drop off areas.

How exactly are people meant to get in/out of their cars to let someone out if every street is lined with cyclelanes and there's absolute enforcement of no parking?

Effectively, you'd be turning every street info a 24/7 clearway.

The infrastructure simply doesn't work. We've theoretical cycle lanes in most cases that are just lines painted on the edge of roads, without any consideration for how they'll work on reality. They're better than nothing, but not by much and they satisfy some planners' imaginations that we have excellent cycling infrastructure, because they can point to lines on maps.

Cork City Centre has some examples where they've got properly segregated cycle lanes that sit between the pavement and the car parking along the edge of streets. Those actually work! They're similar to what I've seen in Dutch cities.

If you don't rejig the entire layout of the pavement and road you can't really do this. It's all about doing infrastructure on the cheap.

There's quite an semi (not at main junctions, but the cycling is routed through lights and there is a green light for cyclists) old footpath cycle lane in the Dodder valley park and continuations along the R112 towards Dundrum, and new lanes past Churchtown. Despite the age of most of it, it is quite well done, but there are some who seem to consider it a right to walk the cycle lane, as a few foot to the ped lane is too much bother. More cyclists should clear the cycle lane walkers out.

Skedaddle · 22-02-2018 10:34am

I've had a pedestrian actually give out to me in Cork for cycling IN a cycleway. She lecturered me about cycling on the "pavement" even though it was a red lane separated by kerbs and has bike symbols all over it.

Lumen · 22-02-2018 11:05am

Skedaddle wrote: »

I've had a pedestrian actually give out to me in Cork for cycling IN a cycleway. She lecturered me about cycling on the "pavement" even though it was a red lane separated by kerbs and has bike symbols all over it.

:eek: there surely must be a bye-law in Cork against use of the term "pavement".

Tenzor07 · 22-02-2018 11:24am

This is pretty shocking!

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/965604676128342021

22-02-2018 12:21pm

Tenzor07 wrote: »

This is pretty shocking!

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/965604676128342021

I note in the comments were he mentions 3 Gardai thought that the driver might have been in the right , that it was akin to crossing a centre line to overtake. Jesus wept :mad:

Skedaddle · 22-02-2018 12:53pm

I'd be interested to see what the Garda Traffic Section make of that.
Also, surely mounting a kerb in a bus that size is actually pretty bad for the bus too, not to mention very rough for the passengers.

ED E · 22-02-2018 2:43pm

Skedaddle wrote: »

I'd be interested to see what the Garda Traffic Road Policing Unit

FYP

Thinkingaboutit · 22-02-2018 3:11pm

gmacww wrote: »

I agree this is an issue however it often makes no difference whatsoever. Take Mespil road for example in Dublin CC. Every day I have to pull out of the cycle lane (solid line for a good stretch of it) to get around cars parked doing pick ups and drop offs. Across the street there are plenty of empty parking spaces all along the canal.

People exercising their golden sovereign right to park right beside their destination, everyone else be damned.

There's challenge enough cycling along there safely even without that.

Wishbone Ash · 22-02-2018 3:47pm

Keeks wrote: »

Because we shouldn't accept bad road behavior.........

I am not a Garda nor are the majority of cyclists here so what do you expect us to do? I'd prefer to get on with my cycling than engaging with every road user who has transgressed the road traffic regulations.

Steoller · 22-02-2018 5:29pm

I'm no fan of Robert Peel, but what Wishbone Ash said above, reminds me of his Principles of Policing. "The police are the only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen." If you want to see change, you have to do something about it.

Keeks · 23-02-2018 11:43am

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I am not a Garda nor are the majority of cyclists here so what do you expect us to do? I'd prefer to get on with my cycling than engaging with every road user who has transgressed the road traffic regulations.

The only way to get anything done is through political means and you need to create a large enough voter base for your agenda to make it worthwhile for a politician to sit up and take notice and make it their agenda.

Now that is difficult as politicians are only interested in their own political needs.

And this is where advocacy groups are missing a trick. They are focusing only from one perspective.... Anti- Drink driving campaigns only focus on drink drivers, Speeding campaigns only focus on speeders, cyclist only focus on cycle lanes etc
You get the point

In this example, we see a cyclist on top of a bus complaining about cars parked in a cycle lane.
Would they have done the same if the cars were parked on a double yellow line?
Both would affect me equally as a motorist or cyclist. There is an obstacle there that shouldn't be.

And all types of bad road behavior needs to be highlighted....cyclists breaking red lights, cars illegally overtaking, buses speeding etc etc....

Once you highlight that then is a lot of road traffic issues and violation then maybe resources could be put into tackling it.

Information campaigns aren't enough, but it tell you something about the state of Irish road users when the RSA feel the need to have a campaign about how to use a roadabout

https://vimeo.com/38376515

Wishbone Ash · 23-02-2018 2:06pm

Keeks wrote: »

The only way to get anything done is through political means and you need to create a large enough voter base for your agenda to make it worthwhile for a politician to sit up and take notice and make it their agenda....

But it doesn't bother me enough to let it affect me. I've enough going on in my life without worrying about vehicles parked on cycle tracks.

Shouldn't the people who are bothered about it be better off doing something about it rather than posting here?

Steoller · 23-02-2018 2:44pm

There's always something better to do. That doesn't mean the mundane problems shouldn't be addressed.

Why cycle lanes will never work in Ireland

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