New Worldwide Handicap System

gypsy79

Blud wrote: »

Not reacting quickly enough - can be addressed with additional powers to the handicap sec.

Not considering degree of difficulty between courses - that is exactly what SSS does, people just ignore it in the current system.

International issues are not addressable under the CONGU system, but they are not an issue that needs to be addressed.

From my perspective, what we are losing far outweighs any gain, even if I could identify any gain.

The SSS do not properly recognise difficulty, just compare SSS to new ratings and you will see that. The new ratings are much closer and the ratings even it out for different handicaps. There is also no difference between the use of SSS and new ratings so your point is mute

Handicap secretaries cant go through all scores every month to pick out what the new system will. It also reacts up and down. This automates their job

3 shots is fair

Seve OB

Exactly wrote: »

I'm told that ClubV1 software won't be displaying your Transition Handicap until November 2nd so if your Club is using them you won't know before then unless you can work it out yourself.

Technically your correct handicap is only available on golfnet. I’ve seen many times my handicap on HDID was not correct.

New version of golfnet will be on the golf Ireland site and the GUI “hope” that you will have sight of it before the 2nd.

Blud

gypsy79 wrote: »

The SSS do not properly recognise difficulty, just compare SSS to new ratings and you will see that. The new ratings are much closer and the ratings even it out for different handicaps. There is also no difference between the use of SSS and new ratings so your point is mute

Handicap secretaries cant go through all scores every month to pick out what the new system will. It also reacts up and down. This automates their job

3 shots is fair

I have no.idea what point your trying to make in that first para. I brought up SSS in response to the other potter's point that CONGU does not reflect differing difficulty between courses - it does, via SSS. If your point is that SSS isn't working properly, then fix that within CONGU, don't just abandon CONGU because of it.

Your second para - a simple analytics tool can go through scores on CONGU and pick up trends etc. The point being that reacting quicker to form and automating that for the handicap sec can be done within CONGU rather than abandoning it. I'd knock an excel macro together in half an hour for God's sake.

I'm not sure what the 3 shots point is.

Are we honestly throwing the baby out with the bath water because a handful of lads would like an open comp thrown into their annual jolly to Portugal?

gypsy79

Blud wrote: »

I have no.idea what point your trying to make in that first para. I brought up SSS in response to the other potter's point that CONGU does not reflect differing difficulty between courses - it does, via SSS. If your point is that SSS isn't working properly, then fix that within CONGU, don't just abandon CONGU because of it.

Your second para - a simple analytics tool can go through scores on CONGU and pick up trends etc. The point being that reacting quicker to form and automating that for the handicap sec can be done within CONGU rather than abandoning it. I'd knock an excel macro together in half an hour for God's sake.

I'm not sure what the 3 shots point is.

Are we honestly throwing the baby out with the bath water because a handful of lads would like an open comp thrown into their annual jolly to Portugal?

You dont understand the new system evidently.

3 shots is how many shots you can get back in a year. While before the dampener kicks in

A form of this system has been used for years in America and is far superior

You design your excel macro.....that is actually laughable. There was a rle within CONGU that allows to move handicap after 7 .1s. When have you heard it used?

SSS only reflects difficulty for scratch golfers. This new system attempts to reflect difficulty for EVERYONE

Another point is that this system reacts much quicker to new golfers been given incorrect handicaps (through no fault of their own)

Seve OB

Jaysus Blud I think you need to take a chill pill.
Sure it’s a huge change and I’ve no doubt there will be poor elements in the new system but anyone with half a brain can see that it makes sense to unify the handicapping system across the world.
I’ve no doubt it sounds an awful lot more complicated than the CONGU system, but maybe once it is rolled out and we are using it week in week out, it will settle down and we will realise that it’s no that hard to wrap the aul grey matter around.

Golfgraffix

I don’t think it’s more complicated at all, try and ask the average golfer how to calculate css and see what the response will be

blue note

I like the sound of this new system. I always felt that under the old system it took too long for your handicap to go up. And as regards the handicap secretary fixing it at the review annually- that was too little whenever I saw it. Someone would hover around 20 points in comps and be given 2 shots back at the year end review. They should have gotten at least 10.

And why wouldn't the world align on a system? It's not going to be all that useful, but it's not an inconvenience to us to introduce it. We're just going to rock up on day 1, look up our name on the computer to find out our playing handicap and head out.

prawnsambo

Blud wrote: »

Not reacting quickly enough - can be addressed with additional powers to the handicap sec.

Not considering degree of difficulty between courses - that is exactly what SSS does, people just ignore it in the current system.

International issues are not addressable under the CONGU system, but they are not an issue that needs to be addressed.

From my perspective, what we are losing far outweighs any gain, even if I could identify any gain.

Additional powers to the handicap secretary? So what you're saying is that not only would we have differing systems between countries but also differing systems between clubs? Now that IS nuts.

SSS only comes into effect in strokeplay competitions. The majority of competitions played in this country (and the UK) are stableford plus a few pseudo-strokeplay formats like max-score. SSS has no effect on those. And that's because SSS was never designed for formats where players don't hole out. Also SSS is a measurement for scratch golfers, so by design excludes the majority of amateur golfers.

International issues are the province of the governing bodies - the R&A and the USGA. It's about time that they put an end to the ludicrous situation of regional handicapping systems. How does it make sense that the exact same sport can have different measurement systems for amateur golfers depending on where they live?

blue note

The off the ball podcast on it was quite good. Ultimately though, we'll all just be told what our index is and what our playing handicap is on the day and it won't make a real difference to us.

The only problem I see though is inaccurate slope ratings giving rise to inaccurate handicap indexes giving an unfair advantage / disadvantage. My handicap will be something like 6-8 shots different on the two courses I've been a member on and there's nothing like that difference in terms of difficulty to me. So if someone averages +18 on my former course and someone else averages +18 on my new course the golfer on my former course will be judged to be a much better player. Possibly by 6-8 shots. Whereas I suspect the actual difference in ability would be closer to 2 shots.

Hopefully there are elements i don't understand that will mitigate against this. If not, the odd course will produce bandits and the odd course will produce guys with lower handicaps than their ability.

Golfgraffix

I’d still like to see some confirmation on where you will be able to see your handicap index.

macslash

finglashoop wrote: »

Excellent.

Im looking forward to the change as it seems, in theory to me anyway, to reflect recent form with 8/20.

I play 2 comps a week and am not a big fan of casual golf. Now that casual rounds contribute to it will see me out more.

Im not looking forward to the start date as i have been playing sh1te and the .1s are starting to add up and the previous 20 are poor enough with a couple of exceptions.

I wonder will this see winning scores come down after the bedding in period

What exactly is casual golf??

Apologies for the silly question folks. I'm a relatively new golfer after only starting after the 2k rule was lifted. I'm absolutely loving it, even though it can be head wrecking at times! I was only getting used to the old system, but hopefully this isn't too hard to work. Speaking from experience in my GC though, the computer is not always on and I personally have never used it. Thanks

finglashoop

macslash wrote: »

What exactly is casual golf??

Apologies for the silly question folks. I'm a relatively new golfer after only starting after the 2k rule was lifted. I'm absolutely loving it, even though it can be head wrecking at times! I was only getting used to the old system, but hopefully this isn't too hard to work. Speaking from experience in my GC though, the computer is not always on and I personally have never used it. Thanks

Casual is non conpetition and doesnt count towards handicap with the system now.

With new system you can declare a casual roundtas a counting round towards handicap calculations.

padmcv

finglashoop wrote: »

With new system you can declare a casual roundtas a counting round towards handicap calculations.

I wonder will clubs start charging for this option?
I hope not, it would be great if I could pay my membership and not have to pay extra to enter comps to keep my handicap

prawnsambo

finglashoop wrote: »

Casual is non conpetition and doesnt count towards handicap with the system now.

With new system you can declare a casual roundtas a counting round towards handicap calculations.

You actually can post casual rounds for your handicap under CONGU. Previously it was only a maximum of ten rounds in a year and Category 1 golfers were excluded, but that changed in 2019 (I think - not 100%) to unlimited rounds and Cat 1 golfers were included.

You do have to declare it before the round and enter your scores afterwards. Most club software caters for this to be done via app or online now, but it may need to be enabled by your committee/admin.

Edit: There are other stipulations (similar to initial handicap allocation) like having to play from the permanent tee markers rather than the movable ones.

macslash

finglashoop wrote: »

Casual is non conpetition and doesnt count towards handicap with the system now.

With new system you can declare a casual roundtas a counting round towards handicap calculations.

That's what I was thinking. But I'm guessing it still has to be with at least one other player ya? To mark your card

newport2

macslash wrote: »

That's what I was thinking. But I'm guessing it still has to be with at least one other player ya? To mark your card

Yes, and you have to declare it a scoring round beforehand

prawnsambo

macslash wrote: »

That's what I was thinking. But I'm guessing it still has to be with at least one other player ya? To mark your card

Yep. All the normal stipulations that you would have to adhere to when submitting cards for initial handicap allocation hold true for supplementary scores (casual rounds). Although in the Covid era, you mark your own card, call over with your 'marker' after the round and write their name in.

prawnsambo

Russman wrote: »

Couldn’t agree more with this.
I tried explaining it to my father in his 70s and he’s a sharp cookie, but was very much “...WTF ?”

The simple explanation is that your handicap for a course can be looked up on a table displayed in the clubhouse and you write that number on your scorecard*.

*These days (Covid permitting) all the information will be on the label that's printed out when you enter a competition on the computer. So no change really.

Seve OB

blue note wrote: »

The off the ball podcast on it was quite good. Ultimately though, we'll all just be told what our index is and what our playing handicap is on the day and it won't make a real difference to us.

The only problem I see though is inaccurate slope ratings giving rise to inaccurate handicap indexes giving an unfair advantage / disadvantage. My handicap will be something like 6-8 shots different on the two courses I've been a member on and there's nothing like that difference in terms of difficulty to me. So if someone averages +18 on my former course and someone else averages +18 on my new course the golfer on my former course will be judged to be a much better player. Possibly by 6-8 shots. Whereas I suspect the actual difference in ability would be closer to 2 shots.

Hopefully there are elements i don't understand that will mitigate against this. If not, the odd course will produce bandits and the odd course will produce guys with lower handicaps than their ability.

I'm a member in 2 clubs.
It looks to me like I'm going to have a higer handicap on the course which I find easier!

KevH1984

The Golf Weekly podcast goes in to great depth about the new system in this weeks addition. I feel the new system will be fairer to all golfers especially if tackling a new course in opens etc. Give it a listen.

blue note

Seve OB wrote: »

I'm a member in 2 clubs.
It looks to me like I'm going to have a higer handicap on the course which I find easier!

Which is fine if you're an outlier. But do you reckon you are?

Of the 2 courses I've been a member of I reckon I shoot closer to par on the course I get an extra 8 shots on based on the handicap calculator website. I played there twice this year and was level handicap and 1 under. I played reasonably well those days, but not amazing. Whereas in my last 10 rounds where I'm a member now I'm averaging under 30 points. But I'm playing very badly. I expect to get a couple of shots back which will make my home course score average closer to low 30s. But if I get 8 shots back on my current handicap to play the course I grew up on, I reckon I could play badly and hit 36 points.

Now I know I'm an outlier in how difficult I find my home course. I think it is relatively easy, but i don't find it so. However, i don't think the difference is as great as the ratings suggest.

macslash

Thanks for the clarifications lads. I had thought that was what the meaning was. I think the new system will weed out poeple not returning cards as I think you have to if you declare before hand it will be counted towards HI. But, I was wondering if you do not declare would people still get away with it.

And to clarify I have finished all of my competition rounds out that i have played, even though you'd feel like giving up sometimes!

Seve OB

blue note wrote: »

Which is fine if you're an outlier. But do you reckon you are?

what does this mean?

blue note

Seve OB wrote: »

what does this mean?

As in do you find it easier, but generally people would find it more difficult. So the ratings would work for the average golfer, but have the opposite effect for you.

prawnsambo

I think I know the two courses Seve plays on. One is short but very tight and has very quick greens. The other is a decent bit longer, but not as tight or as punishing around the greens. I think this may be a flaw in how these courses were rated. The short tight one was rated lower because it's shorter when in fact it's probably more difficult. From what I understand, ratings will be reviewed after a period based on scores under the new system, but there's nothing concrete on that right now.

Seve OB

blue note wrote: »

As in do you find it easier, but generally people would find it more difficult. So the ratings would work for the average golfer, but have the opposite effect for you.

oh yea that makes sense alright. it is a longer curse, but more forgiving. i have the length, but not always the accuracy. often a bad shot might still leave you with a chance of recovering, where as in my other club, it would be much shorter, but tighter.

blue note

Seve OB wrote: »

oh yea that makes sense alright. it is a longer curse, but more forgiving. i have the length, but not always the accuracy. often a bad shot might still leave you with a chance of recovering, where as in my other club, it would be much shorter, but tighter.

That's exactly the same with my case. Tramore is the longer one in my case. For the average bogey golfer remember they're generally older. A huge amount of the golfers in Ireland are in their 60s / 70s. A 360m hole for them could be a driver, 5w. A 400m hole will play as a par 5.

Whereas length is no problem for anyone really in corballis. However due to length or just trying to keep the ball down, I'll most likely be playing a cut down shot on 11 holes. Which I'm very poor at, so it makes the course very difficult for me.

But as I say, I still don't think the ratings are accurate for the average golfer. They're just too far apart.

bustercherry

newport2 wrote: »

Yes, and you have to declare it a scoring round beforehand

Will be plenty of casual scoring rounds declared in the weeks coming up to a captains

Luckycharm

Looking forward to a uniform handicap system around the World. In the previous Yank golf handicap system, you could give gimmes in a qualifying for handicap round and didn't seem to be any strict rules about what length the gimme was.
I remember watching the Tiger match with phil and 2 american footballers, they were very generous with some of their gimmies some well over 4ft and was wondering was that because it was on TV or quite common in the States.

Seve OB

bustercherry wrote: »

Will be plenty of casual scoring rounds declared in the weeks coming up to a captains

the more i think about it, the less i think that will be likely
sure you might get a few thrown in, but remember it is the average of your best 8.
so that means going out and shooting at least 13 crap rounds to just get your handicap back up by a tiny bit, so if you really want to cheat, you would need to be playing well over 15 crap rounds on purpose!!