Future and potential Star Wars films - news and speculation

Stop moaning ffs

Tony EH wrote: »

Yes, they are.

There's nothing exclusive about them.



Yes, we can.

The prequels were appallingly written and have a terrible execution on a basic story level which is clear from the events unfolding on the screen. There are explicit problems with character, story, direction and production.

The sequels, too, suffer in this regard. Just not as blatantly. 'The Force Awakens' was a cheap, by the numbers, riff on the 1977 film and 'The Last Jedi' has serious issues regarding plot and redundant characters that Johnson clearly had no idea what to do with, which were relegated to two of the most unnecessary subplots I ever seen in a movie.

So, yes, it's very possible to criticise the bad writing.

Now if you had said this. I would definitely agree.

Another consequence of the film’s family-friendly approach is that the political wrangling central to the film gets far too little room to breathe. The Phantom Menace was meant to chronicle the decline of the democratic Old Republic into a tangle of sclerotic parliamentary maneuvers and runaway bureaucrats, a failure of democracy that paves the way for Ian McDiarmid’s Senator Palpatine to eventually seize power and declare himself emperor. It’s a noble aim, but one entirely at odds with the fact that this film is, again, intended for children. The result is a movie that relies greatly on political intrigue, but has absolutely no appetite for spending actual time with that intrigue.

https://consequenceofsound.net/2019/05/classic-film-review-star-wars-episode-i-phantom-menace/?fbclid=IwAR1h7OV7pbcgjT4m5JaRi5yLUsjfgstRE4bhU9BEPhJpY0VRE2svtWKnidQ

Foxtrol

Tony EH wrote: »

You've missed the point of the criticism then.

It's not that there was comedy put into Star Wars. It's the type of comedy that's the bone of contention.

In the original movies, the comedy was very subtle and mainly focused on sarcasm from Han Solo and the odd quirky occurrence here and there.

In the prequels, the comedy was stupidly juvenile and slapstick, which got a HUGE level of criticism thrown at it. So much so, that one idiotic comedy character was written out of the series.

In the sequels, there are jokes, with setups and punchlines and THAT was new to Star Wars and was what people found objectionable. The "yo momma" thing was especially "off" to most viewers. Plus, these "jokes" destroyed the atmosphere of the scene that they were in. Coupled with that, there's the buffoonery of several characters that's cringe worthy in every scene they appear in.

Plus, the "franchise" is actually three fairly distinct trilogies that have very little connection if it's examined below the Star Wars moniker. What was present in one trilogy set, wasn't necessarily in another and the humour is quite different in each of them.

This is exactly what I was talking about. Your memory of OT is mainly Han Solo being sarcastic, completely ignoring the extremely clunky 'humour' that is attempted in practically every scene C3P0 is in. At one point I posted time stamps of the OT to show clunky comedy being cut in between a serious scene and posters still refused to accept it as reality.

I've no interested in getting into a circular debate about this again, if you want to live in your rose-tinted OT world then go ahead.

TerrorFirmer

In fairness I have to agree with Tony. The OT had it's share of comic relief, but tonally it was different - subtle, cheeky or sarcastic comments here and there, a few visual gags. Don't get me wrong - The Last Jedi also features all of this; no-one's trying to claim that there are no similarities in the humor, because frankly there are plenty.

But what TLJ has, that the OT most certainly didn't, is a slight degree of slapstick/spoof style humour at times, which is something I had a problem with in TLJ, even though I like it overall. The bit where BB-8 gives Finn the thumbs up in TFA - a classic, simple visual gag - loved it. The part where Poe crank calls Hux, who subsequently plays along like a double digit IQ imbecile....was awkward to sit through and it kinda dampened the tension of that incredibly powerful bombing run sequence for me.

As for the prequels....visually impressive, solid creative vision, immense world building and terrific scope. In fact, I would say far, far better than that of TFA or TLJ, though I do think the new films are far better films in almost every core respect.

Unfortunately the dialogue and character development in the prequels is pretty terrible; the former just plain bad; the latter poorly executed. George Lucas badly needed help bringing his vision to brilliant fruition. Not to mention, world class actors utterly squandered by atrocious direction in what looks to be "The first take will be grand" in almost every scene.

One thing I never thought I'd hear myself saying is that I now find The Phantom Menance the best of the prequel trilogy. Yes, Jar Jar Binks was an unspeakable crime, but fundementally the film is far better paced, directed, shot and acted then the following films, with far more emotional weight to events unfolding on screen and arguably one of the finest moments in franchise history...Duel of the Fates.

Attack of the Clones is just plain poor, Revenge of the Sith is visually a fine spectacle, but again, painful dialogue, weak character development, poor performances and mediocre direction all hamstring it. It's certainly an easy watch though.

Without wanting to invite more debate on GOT, I see huge parallels between George Lucas and his prequels, and Benioff and Weiss and S7/S8 of GOT. Both clearly needed assistance to do their ideas proper justice, but both seem to have almost a level of arrogance in insisting on total autonomy on the product, despite it being blatantly clear that assistance would've immensely bolstered their end product.

pixelburp

I loved Last Jedi, even loved previous comedic moments from Johnson's films, but even I can't deny the comedy was misplaced at best and just bloody awful at worst.

The conference call gag alone nearly sank one of the best set pieces in a Star Wars film,
... though I'd be lying if I said Luke's tickling of Rey's hand didn't make me laugh. That was funny.

Dades

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

In fairness I have to agree with Tony. The OT had it's share of comic relief, but tonally it was different - subtle, cheeky or sarcastic comments here and there, a few visual gags. Don't get me wrong - The Last Jedi also features all of this; no-one's trying to claim that there are no similarities in the humor, because frankly there are plenty.

But what TLJ has, that the OT most certainly didn't, is a slight degree of slapstick/spoof style humour at times, which is something I had a problem with in TLJ, even though I like it overall. The bit where BB-8 gives Finn the thumbs up in TFA - a classic, simple visual gag - loved it. The part where Poe crank calls Hux, who subsequently plays along like a double digit IQ imbecile....was awkward to sit through and it kinda dampened the tension of that incredibly powerful bombing run sequence for me.

As for the prequels....visually impressive, solid creative vision, immense world building and terrific scope. In fact, I would say far, far better than that of TFA or TLJ, though I do think the new films are far better films in almost every core respect.

Unfortunately the dialogue and character development in the prequels is pretty terrible; the former just plain bad; the latter poorly executed. George Lucas badly needed help bringing his vision to brilliant fruition. Not to mention, world class actors utterly squandered by atrocious direction in what looks to be "The first take will be grand" in almost every scene.

One thing I never thought I'd hear myself saying is that I now find The Phantom Menance the best of the prequel trilogy. Yes, Jar Jar Binks was an unspeakable crime, but fundementally the film is far better paced, directed, shot and acted then the following films, with far more emotional weight to events unfolding on screen and arguably one of the finest moments in franchise history...Duel of the Fates.

Attack of the Clones is just plain poor, Revenge of the Sith is visually a fine spectacle, but again, painful dialogue, weak character development, poor performances and mediocre direction all hamstring it. It's certainly an easy watch though.

Without wanting to invite more debate on GOT, I see huge parallels between George Lucas and his prequels, and Benioff and Weiss and S7/S8 of GOT. Both clearly needed assistance to do their ideas proper justice, but both seem to have almost a level of arrogance in insisting on total autonomy on the product, despite it being blatantly clear that assistance would've immensely bolstered their end product.

I found myself nodding through all of the above. Sums up my feelings on the prequels completely. TPM has always been my favourite of them because there was no awful teenage Anakin/Padme to suffer through.

I didn't mind the humour in TLJ - not every movie has to be poe-faced and "dark" like many recent franchises have gone. Star Wars is for kids, too. Maybe if the story hadn't stunk, it could have got away with it more. The humour on Ahch-To was enjoyable for me, as it was worlds apart from the rest of the story.

Once the goodwill bank is empty, however, fans will leave no carcass unpicked.

johnny_ultimate

The ironing board gag is the funniest moment in any Star Wars film.

Foxtrol

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

In fairness I have to agree with Tony. The OT had it's share of comic relief, but tonally it was different - subtle, cheeky or sarcastic comments here and there, a few visual gags. Don't get me wrong - The Last Jedi also features all of this; no-one's trying to claim that there are no similarities in the humor, because frankly there are plenty.

But what TLJ has, that the OT most certainly didn't, is a slight degree of slapstick/spoof style humour at times, which is something I had a problem with in TLJ, even though I like it overall. The bit where BB-8 gives Finn the thumbs up in TFA - a classic, simple visual gag - loved it. The part where Poe crank calls Hux, who subsequently plays along like a double digit IQ imbecile....was awkward to sit through and it kinda dampened the tension of that incredibly powerful bombing run sequence for me.

As for the prequels....visually impressive, solid creative vision, immense world building and terrific scope. In fact, I would say far, far better than that of TFA or TLJ, though I do think the new films are far better films in almost every core respect.

Unfortunately the dialogue and character development in the prequels is pretty terrible; the former just plain bad; the latter poorly executed. George Lucas badly needed help bringing his vision to brilliant fruition. Not to mention, world class actors utterly squandered by atrocious direction in what looks to be "The first take will be grand" in almost every scene.

One thing I never thought I'd hear myself saying is that I now find The Phantom Menance the best of the prequel trilogy. Yes, Jar Jar Binks was an unspeakable crime, but fundementally the film is far better paced, directed, shot and acted then the following films, with far more emotional weight to events unfolding on screen and arguably one of the finest moments in franchise history...Duel of the Fates.

Attack of the Clones is just plain poor, Revenge of the Sith is visually a fine spectacle, but again, painful dialogue, weak character development, poor performances and mediocre direction all hamstring it. It's certainly an easy watch though.

Without wanting to invite more debate on GOT, I see huge parallels between George Lucas and his prequels, and Benioff and Weiss and S7/S8 of GOT. Both clearly needed assistance to do their ideas proper justice, but both seem to have almost a level of arrogance in insisting on total autonomy on the product, despite it being blatantly clear that assistance would've immensely bolstered their end product.

There was several posters claiming this to justify their hate for TLJ.

pixelburp

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

The ironing board gag is the funniest moment in any Star Wars film.

Ok, maybe second to the tickle. To pinch from Mark Kermode, Last Jedi passed the "6 Laughs Test", but it did also pass the "6 'Hmph' Test" with a lot of other moments that didn't land. The conference call made me sink into my chair in mortification.

Sad Professor

Johnson built on the slightly Spaceballs-esque inspired humour that Abrams introduced in TFA - like Poe making fun of Kylo's mask, Kylo having a meltdown, etc. I for one enjoyed it. I also expect JJ to double down on it in the next film.

SW fans should be grateful Spielberg never directed a film. He'd have gone nuts with the slapstick!

Cryptopagan

Humour is a very subjective thing, but I’ve never been able to pin down what it is I don’t like about some of the jokes in the sequel trilogy. I hated Poe’s “how long do we have to wait to talk in this situation” line in TFA, his prank call in TLJ (they have telephone operators in Star Wars? Are there call centers?), Luke agreeing that Jakku is nowhere. But I did enjoy Leia telling 3PO to wipe that look off his face, the porg sabering itself, Hux asking Ren if he thought he got him.

Star Wars has always had humour and should have jokes in it. Except when I don’t find them funny, then the jokes shouldn’t be there and the people laughing at them are wrong.

Cryptopagan

pixelburp wrote: »

Ok, maybe second to the tickle. To pinch from Mark Kermode, Last Jedi passed the "6 Laughs Test", but it did also pass the "6 'Hmph' Test" with a lot of other moments that didn't land. The conference call made me sink into my chair in mortification.

I didn’t mind it so much on a second viewing when I knew the movie would get better, but the first time....

Tony EH

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

The ironing board gag is the funniest moment in any Star Wars film.

That was just awful. I couldn't believe what I was seeing.

Tony EH

Sad Professor wrote: »

SW fans should be grateful Spielberg never directed a film. He'd have gone nuts with the slapstick!

That depends on what Spielberg we're talking about.

The Spielberg of 'Jaws' and 'Close Encounters of the Third Kind' might suit a Star Wars film.

The Spielberg of 'Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade' wouldn't.

In fact, he didn't suit 'Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade', which was bloody awful. :pac:

Stop moaning ffs

Not to pile on but

‘Read them have you? Page turners they were not’

From Yoda. Seriously. Far too real world and something that will date awfully.

*in a galaxy where paper doesn’t even exist especillay. Well. Until now.

pixelburp

Tony EH wrote: »

That was just awful. I couldn't believe what I was seeing.

Out of curiousity, was it that you just didn't like the gag full stop, or just that it shouldn't be in Star Wars? Cos for me that was a brilliant piece of comedic misdirection / subversion. Throwaway, contextual and worked much better than the maligned conference call.

Tony EH

pixelburp wrote: »

Out of curiousity, was it that you just didn't like the gag full stop, or just that it shouldn't be in Star Wars? Cos for me that was a brilliant piece of comedic misdirection / subversion. Throwaway, contextual and worked much better than the maligned conference call.

A bit of both.

In National Lampoon's Space Vacation it might work. But, I just didn't feel it in 'The Last Jedi'.

It's not as awful as Jar Jar stepping in shit or getting a fart full on in the face, though. I'll give it that.

Drumpot

Cryptopagan wrote: »

the porg sabering itself

Stop moaning ffs

I thought the porg humour was grand. Just enough not too much and funny when they were on. Wrecking the dashboard on the falcon and ripping the seat. Poor chewie losing his mind

I hope we get R2 back properly this last one. Make him the comedy as he so often was and done so well in previous films.

TerrorFirmer

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

The ironing board gag is the funniest moment in any Star Wars film.

I have to agree. I burst out laughing in the cinema. So absurdly daft, yet by pure virtue of being a visual gag, it just felt perfectly fine to me, if admittedly new territory for Star Wars.

Stop moaning ffs

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

I have to agree. I burst out laughing in the cinema. So absurdly daft, yet by pure virtue of being a visual gag, it just felt perfectly fine to me, if admittedly new territory for Star Wars.

It was a lift or a nod to some Star Wars fan film from way back in the 80s. They copied the shot exactly I read

TerrorFirmer

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

It was a lift or a nod to some Star Wars fan film from way back in the 80s. They copied the shot exactly I read

It was, good spot. Hardware wars, a fan-made spoof.

Dades

Cryptopagan wrote: »

Humour is a very subjective thing, but I’ve never been able to pin down what it is I don’t like about some of the jokes in the sequel trilogy. I hated Poe’s “how long do we have to wait to talk in this situation” line in TFA.

Just to validate your "subjective" point, I thought that was a genius line immediately telling us what kind of character Poe is.

Tony EH wrote: »

That depends on what Spielberg we're talking about.

The Spielberg of 'Jaws' and 'Close Encounters of the Third Kind' might suit a Star Wars film.

The Spielberg of 'Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade' wouldn't.

In fact, he didn't suit 'Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade', which was bloody awful. :pac:

I really hope you're getting mixed up with Indy and the Crystal Skulls.... because The Last Crusade was an absolute blast because of the humour.

Tony EH

Dades wrote: »

I really hope you're getting mixed up with Indy and the Crystal Skulls.... because The Last Crusade was an absolute blast because of the humour.

It was awful because of its humour.

Waaay too much and waaay too stupid.

Stop moaning ffs

So Harrison ford isn’t invincible is what you’re saying? Indy 1-4 are great fun and great humour well delivered. You couldn’t make those films now, modern tastes just wouldn’t get that humour. Even though it’s hokey and yet timeless. The guy doing the fancy sword work and Indy just grabs his gun and shoots him.
Classic!

Tony EH

Don't think I ever said Ford was "invincible", but anyway, the scene you reference works, because it could happen. It's humorous in a way that doesn't feel forced and its impromptu origins help it. It doesn't feel "written", or "try hard" and laboured.

The humour in 'Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade', such as the librarian not being able to tell the difference between the sound of a concrete floor being wrecked and the stamping frank in his hand is just stupid, not funny. Likewise, the no ticket scene is just dumb. Like a lot of the humour, it oversteps the line from merely humorous to completely ridiculous. It would be fine in a Monty Python film, but it's just way too much for the film it's in. There are numerous attempts at comedy in the film, like this, that just go too far.

In its favour, Ford and Connery's dad and son act is great and their interaction makes the film what it is and is the main reason why it's so well regarded. But, much of the humour in the picture is bloody terrible, over the top, and utterly ludicrous.

Whereas in the first two films, it was more tempered and restraint. So, therefore, it worked better.

Much better.

Dades

Tony EH wrote: »

It would be fine in a Monty Python film, but it's just way too much for the film it's in.

What film do you think it's in? Indiana Jones movies are pulp adventure movies and are meant to be fun. The closest we've had since is another classic adventure - The Mummy (1999).

There's loads of visual gags in Indys 1&2. You could never better Raiders on it's own terms as a movie although they clearly tried with Temple of Doom. Much as I love it, Mola Ram ripping somebody's heart out with his bare hands was a dark point in the *cough* trilogy that they were wise to leave behind.

The Last Crusade added a dash of Sean Connery and the dynamic was just perfect for where they went with it.

Sad Professor

Yeah, Raiders had loads of that kind of humour. The double-sided mirror, the Cairo chase, etc. Slapstick comes naturally to Spielberg.

The humour didn't change in the Indy films. They just lost their darker, more violent edge which had balanced the humour in the earlier films. Spielberg never got over the negative reaction to the violence in Temple of Doom.

Tony EH

Dades wrote: »

What film do you think it's in?

Not a Monty Python film.

Dades wrote: »

There's loads of visual gags in Indys 1&2. You could never better Raiders on it's own terms as a movie although they clearly tried with Temple of Doom. Much as I love it, Mola Ram ripping somebody's heart out with his bare hands was a dark point in the *cough* trilogy that they were wise to leave behind.

There's really only one truly great Indiana Jones film. That's obviously 'Raiders of the Lost Ark'. Personally, I thought 'Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom' was great too. It just wasn't as good as the first film and I've always found it odd that it was that film was the one that had some folk getting their knickers in a twist over the so called "dark" scenes. FFS, people's faces MELT in Raiders. There's tons of rotting corpses gurning at the camera too. Raiders has far more dodgy (IMO brilliant) stuff in it than Temple of Doom did.

Both of them do have humour. But it's never as too absurd or ridiculous as the humour we see in 'Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade', which just goes way over the top and dumbs the entire movie down.

Yermande

pixelburp wrote: »

Ok, maybe second to the tickle. To pinch from Mark Kermode, Last Jedi passed the "6 Laughs Test", but it did also pass the "6 'Hmph' Test" with a lot of other moments that didn't land. The conference call made me sink into my chair in mortification.

The 6 laughs test. That fella needs a good ride. He's an excellent critic, particularly in writing, but that radio show has turned him into a complete twat.

Have you been listening to his Kermode on Film podcast? It's a bit scattershot but he's more like his old self on it.

Acosta

Cryptopagan wrote: »

Humour is a very subjective thing, but I’ve never been able to pin down what it is I don’t like about some of the jokes in the sequel trilogy. I hated Poe’s “how long do we have to wait to talk in this situation” line in TFA, his prank call in TLJ (they have telephone operators in Star Wars? Are there call centers?), Luke agreeing that Jakku is nowhere. But I did enjoy Leia telling 3PO to wipe that look off his face, the porg sabering itself, Hux asking Ren if he thought he got him.

Star Wars has always had humour and should have jokes in it. Except when I don’t find them funny, then the jokes shouldn’t be there and the people laughing at them are wrong.

I had many problems with the TLJ, but the humour was my biggest issue when first seeing it in the cinema. I felt like a Curb fan sat in the middle of Cork's society of Mrs Browns Boys fans on their night out. THEY LAUGHED AT EVERYTHING. Some of them were in ****ing convulsions. I watched it again when it came out on dvd and I nearly enjoyed it by comparison.
I will never go and see one of these movies on the opening midnight screening again. I will wait until after Christmas and go to a daytime screening when there's feck all people in there.