Match preview & thread: FRA vs IRE (Sat Feb 3, 1645)

Burkie1203

Burkie1203 wrote: »

The danger is now that for fear of being accused of abuse the rules we may end up with another Florian Fritz type situation.

And if the doctor sanctioned two HIA for the french lads, was he negligent in not calling for one when VDF went down?

I will forever dislike Guy Noves for that. French rugby is a meat market and they treat their players no better. The issues at the weekend are an extension of that.

prawnsambo wrote: »

I think the whole thing started with Chavancy. He spotted Dupont on the floor and tried to get Nigel's attention, tapping his own head to indicate he thought it was a head injury. In fairness, Dupont was prone and not moving at the time. He was also trying to get the attention of the touchline medics. That's fair enough and shows great concern for a team mate. But his head tapping then spread to Nigel Owens who made a similar gesture.

I reckon that's what got people on the wrong track and why they called for a HIA. I don't think there was any nefarious carry on in it.

I'm probably being deeply and unreasonably cynical but him coming over tapping his head when there was no sign of it to me says the entire team are on the same page. Match ending injury? Make sure you go off for a head injury and Chavancy was coming over to make sure that's what the spiel was.

I've no evidence for that at all bar cynicism based on what happened at the weekend and last year against Wales.

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm probably being deeply and unreasonably cynical but him coming over tapping his head when there was no sign of it to me says the entire team are on the same page. Match ending injury? Make sure you go off for a head injury and Chavancy was coming over to make sure that's what the spiel was.

I've no evidence for that at all bar cynicism based on what happened at the weekend and last year against Wales.

Ah you'd have to be wearing a tinfoil balaclava to believe that. Chavancy didn't see the tackle, he just saw Dupont on the ground and reacted. It wasn't beyond belief, because Dupont wasn't moving at the time.

I would be very slow to accuse the entire team of that kind of skullduggery.

.ak

Faugheen wrote: »

Conan has proven he's one of the best 8s in Europe, the sooner you realise this the better.

Mind you you strike me as someone who thinks Heaslip was always ****.

Attack the post, not the poster.

prawnsambo

prawnsambo wrote: »

Ah you'd have to be wearing a tinfoil balaclava to believe that. Chavancy didn't see the tackle, he just saw Dupont on the ground and reacted. It wasn't beyond belief, because Dupont wasn't moving at the time.

I would be very slow to accuse the entire team of that kind of skullduggery.

Yeah, I mean Machenaud was on the touchline pretty quickly, certainly before anything had been confirmed and Owens was still discussing it, France had zero intention of subbing anyone else. I'd need to look back but I thought there was more than one French player tapping their head also.

Fair enough if a bunch of people saw something that no one else saw and were convinced.

From the rugby federation that drafted in the Lomu's I'm afraid my starting position is one of scepticism and disbelief.

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah, I mean Machenaud was on the touchline pretty quickly, certainly before anything had been confirmed and Owens was still discussing it, France had zero intention of subbing anyone else. I'd need to look back but I thought there was more than one French player tapping their head also.

Fair enough if a bunch of people saw something that no one else saw and were convinced.

From the rugby federation that drafted in the Lomu's I'm afraid my starting position is one of scepticism and disbelief.

Ah yeah, part of me wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be a set up. But most of the players nearby were in the scrum when Dupont broke and tried to step Murray. Their heads were very close in the tackle and that could have influenced their opinion.

The only one I noticed doing the head tap thing was Chavancy. Nigel also made the indication, so you'd expect the management to react to that and get Machenaud ready.

We always choose conspiracy when the choice is conspiracy or cock-up. Experience tells me it's almost always the latter.

prawnsambo

prawnsambo wrote: »

Ah yeah, part of me wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be a set up. But most of the players nearby were in the scrum when Dupont broke and tried to step Murray. Their heads were very close in the tackle and that could have influenced their opinion.

The only one I noticed doing the head tap thing was Chavancy. Nigel also made the indication, so you'd expect the management to react to that and get Machenaud ready.

We always choose conspiracy when the choice is conspiracy or cock-up. Experience tells me it's almost always the latter.

Yeah I'd be in the occam's razor school of logic myself but twice in the one game with match ending injuries and you have one side going straight for the HIA.

I mean compare to when VDF does his knee, falls into a tackle and legit hits his head and neck. No one is calling a HIA but Owens blows it up and says he heard the knee pop, says it's a normal rugby injury and no foul play. No mention or indication of a HIA. It's chalk and cheese in terms of the response. No Irish players are rushing in calling for a HIA.

I'm on the fence like yourself between conspiracy and cock-up but I'm falling towards the conspiracy side personally.

Had Machenaud taken that kick and it gone over I can guarantee you there would be all out war between the IRFU and the FFR.

Burkie1203

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yeah I'd be in the occam's razor school of logic myself but twice in the one game with match ending injuries and you have one side going straight for the HIA.

I mean compare to when VDF does his knee, falls into a tackle and legit hits his head and neck. No one is calling a HIA but Owens blows it up and says he heard the knee pop, says it's a normal rugby injury and no foul play. No mention or indication of a HIA. It's chalk and cheese in terms of the response. No Irish players are rushing in calling for a HIA.

I'm on the fence like yourself between conspiracy and cock-up but I'm falling towards the conspiracy side personally.

Had Machenaud taken that kick and it gone over I can guarantee you there would be all out war between the IRFU and the FFR.

Throw in the wales game last year and the prop says he has a sore back and the doc tells Barnes he has to go off for HIA and its hard not to be cynical about it.

The Lost Sheep

joseywhales wrote: »

I think our team is better managed but I think they might edge it in terms of player talent.
I don't think our players are more talented than the french players.
The u-20 six nations shows me that they outperform us consistently at that level, it should be a good proxy for the talent of the players a few years later over a 10 year moving average.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Nations_Under_20s_Championship

They should be dominating at age grade they are professional earlier and have such numbers playing as well.

stephen_n wrote: »

England and France dominate the U20's on sheer size, it's often men against boys and they bully teams. Doesn't mean they have or are better players or it would transmit through to the senior game, where things level out.

And a lot of that is because theyre pro earlier. They have guys in professional academies from the age of 16 at times and kids can still be in school and be playing some pro rugby.

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

Had Machenaud taken that kick and it gone over I can guarantee you there would be all out war between the IRFU and the FFR.

Yeah, lucky the French brains trust hadn't copped that rule change had come in last summer.

Trojan

Deleted User wrote: »

The worst thing you can do in relation to a law designed to protect players is to take advantage of it for gain.

This the crucial point a lot of people seem to be missing.

There's enough problems with under-reporting of head injuries in professional rugby. We cannot allow teams to abuse the system and have people starting to doubt HIA calls from medical officials.

This has to be stamped out, hard.

prawnsambo

Trojan wrote: »

This the crucial point a lot of people seem to be missing.

There's enough problems with under-reporting of head injuries in professional rugby. We cannot allow teams to abuse the system and have people starting to doubt HIA calls from medical officials.

This has to be stamped out, hard.

I thought the purpose of the match doctor was to review incidents on the field and make calls for HIAs independent of the team doctors. The situation in Paris seemed to be either a guy who was terrified of making the wrong call and erring hugely on the side of caution or something more cynical.

prawnsambo

prawnsambo wrote: »

I thought the purpose of the match doctor was to review incidents on the field and make calls for HIAs independent of the team doctors. The situation in Paris seemed to be either a guy who was terrified of making the wrong call and erring hugely on the side of caution or something more cynical.

If you tell a completely independent and completely impartial doctor that you've suffered a head injury, he has to consider it and examine for it regardless of whether he observed the injury or believes it to have happened.

This seems to be why French players were immediately calling HIA whenever there looked to be a serious injury and it's how they can force an independent medical professional to err on the side of caution and examine for it.

There is further questions in this instance however as the independent doctor is the parent of one of the French medical team which raises the potential for a conflict of interest.

I watched it back again last night, one of the forwards points to the prone player and looks to put his hand on his head. Two players intimating the same thing to the referee independent of each other, neither having observed a head injury is hugely suspicious to me. I'm definitely in the tin-foil balaclava camp now.

Another aspect I find damning is that the player is down and is holding his head, but when play is about to come his way he suddenly becomes alert and looks to get out of the way.

Looks like a load of bollox theatrics designed to allow rolling subs.

Throw the book at them your honour!

irishbucsfan

Fair play to Chavancey if he was able to come up with that on the spot.

Although you'd think this master plan would have included the bit where they remember that Machenaud is allowed kick

prawnsambo

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Fair play to Chavancey if he was able to come up with that on the spot.

Although you'd think this master plan would have included the bit where they remember that Machenaud is allowed kick

That's the cock-up part of the conspiracy v cock-up conundrum.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Fair play to Chavancey if he was able to come up with that on the spot.

Although you'd think this master plan would have included the bit where they remember that Machenaud is allowed kick

Apologies, maybe I've been unclear. I'm suggesting that the entire 23 were told that if anyone takes a bad knock and needs to be replaced, make sure people are saying head injury to the ref or the doctors so that there are more options available.

It's conspiratorial but it's not like it hasn't happened before (bloodgate).

Maybe not the entire 23, but certainly critical positions like front row and out halves.

Given what we've all seen and what France did last year and combining that with the type of attitude that led Harlequins to have players taking blood capsules onto the pitch, I think it's not all too far fetched.

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

Given what we've all seen and what France did last year and combining that with the type of attitude that led Harlequins to have players taking blood capsules onto the pitch, I think it's not all too far fetched.

There's a simple answer to this though. If there's a clear and obvious match-ending injury and a suspicion of a head injury as well, the other injury takes precedence (as the player is no longer able to continue anyway) and he is removed and given a mandatory HIA but the other HIA protocols regarding substitution are null and void.

The HIA protiocols on substitution should only be used if there's a possibility of the player returning to the field of play.

errlloyd

prawnsambo wrote: »

There's a simple answer to this though. If there's a clear and obvious match-ending injury and a suspicion of a head injury as well, the other injury takes precedence (as the player is no longer able to continue anyway) and he is removed and given a mandatory HIA but the other HIA protocols regarding substitution are null and void.

The HIA protiocols on substitution should only be used if there's a possibility of the player returning to the field of play.

Just on this, if he had gone off on 65 and then failed the HIA, would they have had to replace Machenaud with Fall on 75?

prawnsambo

errlloyd wrote: »

Just on this, if he had gone off on 65 and then failed the HIA, would they have had to replace Machenaud with Fall on 75?

You mean if it was implemented as I suggest or as it happened? If it's as I suggest, then Machenaud wouldn't have been allowed to come on in the first place.

As it happened, in theory if he passed the HIA, he'd be allowed back on and Machenaud would have gone off. So assuming he was crocked, Fall would have had to come on for Machenaud. But there wasn't time before the match ended to get him through a HIA anyway.

NollagShona

This thread still going???

prawnsambo

NollagShona wrote: »

This thread still going???

Mine was the last post until you decided to get it going again. :P

NollagShona

NollagShona wrote: »

This thread still going???

Did ye see the drop goal that Sexton did?

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

Did ye see the drop goal that Sexton did?

I don't want to hear...

The Rape of Lucretia

NollagShona wrote: »

This thread still going???

With that final 5 minutes 14 seconds, this thread deserves eternal life.
For those who were there it will live forever in the memory anyway.

Yeah_Right

NollagShona wrote: »

This thread still going???

I think the mods are waiting on an in-depth report on the match from someone who was there. A real fan's story detailing their journey, their experiences, where they ate and drank, who they met and the atmosphere in and around the stadium. Do you know someone who was there who could maybe do that?

sydthebeat

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I think the mods are waiting on an in-depth report on the match from someone who was there. A real fan's story detailing their journey, their experiences, where they ate and drank, who they met and the atmosphere in and around the stadium. Do you know someone who was there who could maybe do that?

Don't forget what the soundtrack for the day was....

The Rape of Lucretia

sydthebeat wrote: »

Don't forget what the soundtrack for the day was....

Forget the soundtrack for the day.

Its the soundtrack for the 5m14s that matters, as the merciless green flood poured out of its 25 with relentless energy and precision, and survived 40 lives, while the galant French could not hold back the 15 relentless perpetual motion furies who put them to the sword with a master matador finally making one clinical strike between the shoulderblades:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jBLyIQvNf0

NollagShona

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

With that final 5 minutes 14 seconds, this thread deserves eternal life.
For those who were there it will live forever in the memory anyway.

It certainly will.

Haterz gonna hate.

NollagShona

Fcuk me read through the thread, some player attacks from the KW when were were losing, but same can throw snide remarks my way?

Cheers lads, I look forward to reading your vitriol when I get home Sat eve!

prawnsambo

NollagShona wrote: »

Fcuk me read through the thread, some player attacks from the KW when were were losing, but same can through snide remarks my way?

Cheers lads, I look forward to reading your vitriol when I get home Sat eve!

The KW?

I'm utterly confused.