Bus Eireann - seriously poor

Padraig Mor

9.30 205 bus from the train station this morning never showed up. My elderly mother has had back pain since Friday after she (and others) were left standing in the cold and rain for a 214 bus which never showed. What is going on with Cork's bus services? Is there an element of unofficial industrial action involved in all this?

Curb Your Enthusiasm

A meeting was had with Bus Eireann managers today with a number of Cork TD's and Seamus McGrath provided an update on his Facebook page; https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=808974809296255&id=100005512302986

Mardyke

Evil-1 wrote: »

Why oh why do people complain to Bus Eireann about problems on PSO routes, that is pointless as Bus Eireann is only the contractor on route 223, you need to complain to the people who are actually responsible for that route , https://www.nationaltransport.ie/bus-licensing/make-a-complaint/

Is it possible to name the correct people to contact, with their email addresses, so that others can start reporting their experiences?

Curb Your Enthusiasm

Anne.graham@nationaltransport.ie
Ray.hernan@buseireann.ie

Both CEOs for the respective companies. Ms. Graham usually responds in about a month(!) if at all.

Don't bother with BE customer service. Hopeless.

Mardyke

Curb Your Enthusiasm wrote: »

Anne.graham@nationaltransport.ie
Ray.hernan@buseireann.ie

Both CEOs for the respective companies. Ms. Graham usually responds in about a month(!) if at all.

Don't bother with BE customer service. Hopeless.

Where does Martin Walsh fit in then?

Curb Your Enthusiasm

Mardyke wrote: »

Where does Martin Walsh fit in then?

Cork Area Manager. Same layout for his email address. He has flat out ignored my last few emails however.

Xavierpony

The 205 route is a complete joke lately. The bus is packed, every day, the every 15 minutes on the time table is a joke.

It would be faster walking some days due to the amount of time it takes to get out to cit from the bus station

namloc1980

Xavierpony wrote: »

The 205 route is a complete joke lately. The bus is packed, every day, the every 15 minutes on the time table is a joke.

It would be faster walking some days due to the amount of time it takes to get out to cit from the bus station

All those cars jamming up the 24 hour bus lane on Washington Street doesn't help.

Padraig Mor

namloc1980 wrote: »

All those cars jamming up the 24 hour bus lane on Washington Street doesn't help.

It may not help, but - as covered here at length before - this is a systemic Bus Eireann issue and giving them the convenient excuse of traffic, bus lanes etc in service of a different pet agenda does nothing to help those forced to rely on the crumbling service.

Curb Your Enthusiasm

Padraig Mor wrote: »

It may not help, but - as covered here at length before - this is a systemic Bus Eireann issue and giving them the convenient excuse of traffic, bus lanes etc in service of a different pet agenda does nothing to help those forced to rely on the crumbling service.

Indeed. Easy to blame traffic. Its been pretty much the only excuse they give when emailing them.

Funnily enough, I just boarded a bus to CIT and the driver asked me if I wouldn't mind staying up front with him, as he hadn't a notion where he was going, as he was new to the route. What the hell?

namloc1980

Padraig Mor wrote: »

It may not help, but - as covered here at length before - this is a systemic Bus Eireann issue and giving them the convenient excuse of traffic, bus lanes etc in service of a different pet agenda does nothing to help those forced to rely on the crumbling service.

But traffic does affect buses no? They can't fly and we don't have anywhere near enough priority bus measures so that buses can be more regular. If the 205 gets snarled up on Model Farm Rd/College Rd (a regular occurrence) what do you think is going to happen???? Yep, it's going to be late.

EdgeCase

This is the kind of thing that drives me insane in Ireland.
We've a massive issue coming down the line with CO2 emissions and our total inability / government unwillingness to do anything serious to tackle them and at the same time we've a public transit system in our second city that seems to be driving people to commute by car.

They're now talking about carbon taxes of €1000/capita per annum:
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/esri-warns-of-15fold-hike-in-carbon-tax-37547872.html

yet, at the same time they can't manage to get a simple bus system to work!

What are we supposed to do as normal citizens just trying to get around?

It's things like woefully inadequate urban transport that drives up Irish carbon footprints and as a state we don't seem to be able to do anything about it and just accept sitting there in a traffic jam instead.

I mean wake up: Cork's Ireland second biggest centre of population and we have people unable to rely on the bus service?! In most functioning countries of this level of wealth and development you would have top notch transit in a city like Cork, probably even including some element of trams and zero emission electric busses.

namloc1980

EdgeCase wrote: »

It's things like woefully inadequate urban transport that drives up Irish carbon footprints and as a state we don't seem to be able to do anything about it and just accept sitting there in a traffic jam instead.

I mean wake up: Cork's Ireland second biggest centre of population and we have people unable to rely on the bus service?! In most functioning countries of this level of wealth and development you would have top notch transit in a city like Cork, probably even including some element of trams and zero emission electric busses.

The massive public outcry and objections to BusConnects and Metro in Dublin show that the Irish public in general have little appetite for world class public transport. Those two projects are already bogged down in local disputes with know-it-all politicians sticking their oars in. And that's before we even get to the planning stage with the inevitable appeals and judicial reviews. As a government and as a society very little stock is put in to quality infrastructure.

timmyjimmy

namloc1980 wrote: »

But traffic does affect buses no? They can't fly and we don't have anywhere near enough priority bus measures so that buses can be more regular. If the 205 gets snarled up on Model Farm Rd/College Rd (a regular occurrence) what do you think is going to happen???? Yep, it's going to be late.

Well sort the timetables to represent the traffic. Bus Eireann need to adapt their timetables to deal with the traffic, not scapegoat it for their shambles of an organisation.

EdgeCase

Yet when you get something like the Luas up and running people are delighted with the end result.

I don’t think you can blame Cork’s public transit woes on local objectors or parish pump politics.

Having lived here for quite some time, it always seemed to be down to over centralized and unaccountable services that run Cork’s transit systems as some kind of “down the country” bus system that’s suitable for “culchies”.

That’s the vibe it always gave me. It’s like a dichotomy of Dublin Bus vs “provincial services” that are “good enough for you peasant types!”

And I say that as a Dub living in Cork. It’s not good enough to roll the cities’ bus networks into some kind of messy long distance / rural mindset.

I mean it’s only in the last few years that services to Carrigaline and Ballincollig have been treated as urban at all. Yet, those areas have populations larger than many midlands major towns that would even have local town bus services within their limits.

The failure to get public transit in Cork working properly is causing serious issues for very large numbers of people and it’s putting unnecessary pressure on expensive road infrastructure that is being choked by the morning and evening rush hours

All of that means loss of quality of life and loss of productivity. It’s a pointless waste of time and energy all because, for whatever reason, there’s a woefully inadequate service.

It’s a vicious cycle too : poor quality and particularly unreliable services will drive passengers away. If you can’t rely on or predict when a bus will run, then you will probably use it once or twice, give up and never go near the bus network again.

So you end up with low usage levels and that is interpreted as lack of demand and that in turn causes even less investment.

A well run, reliable system that was good to use would in all likelihood drive usage up.

Padraig Mor

namloc1980 wrote: »

But traffic does affect buses no? They can't fly and we don't have anywhere near enough priority bus measures so that buses can be more regular. If the 205 gets snarled up on Model Farm Rd/College Rd (a regular occurrence) what do you think is going to happen???? Yep, it's going to be late.

Perhaps I wasn't clear? Of course traffic affects buses, but identifying it as the sole problem with the schedules is plain incorrect; of course you know this as it's been pointed out before here - but you keep repeating the same points ad nauseum in service of your own pet anti-car agenda. I've given my own experiences of Bus Eireann here (both peak and off peak hours) and have also mentioned the situation of my - legally blind - neighbour who has now abandoned the 205 bus in favour of walking from UCC to the train station, the bus service is so bad. The traffic isn't (most) of the problem, Bus Eireann is!

Just as an example, here's an excerpt from a letter in today's Irish Times - Dublin obviously, but the same shambles of a service holds true in Cork, including the utterly useless "real time information" (LOL) signs.

Sir, – My daughter told me the 133 Bus Éireann route was unreliable. I didn’t believe her.

On Saturday I arranged to meet a friend in Dublin between 3:30pm and 4pm. The online bus schedule for Saturday showed that there was a 133 bus from Kilmacanogue, Co Wicklow, at 2.41pm. The bus pulled in off the motorway to the stop. I put out my hand but the bus drove past and did not stop. The driver saw me. We made eye contact. Never mind – the electronic display said there was another two 133 buses in 20 minutes. I waited. At the appointed time the display showed that the buses had arrived but there were no buses. So that’s three phantom buses. The display said that there was another 133 bus in 23 minutes. I waited. Again the display said that the bus had arrived but there was no bus. Four phantom buses. There was a 45A which I decided to take to the Dart station in Bray. I then got a Dart to Lansdowne and arrived at 5:30pm. Three hours to get from Kilmacanogue to Dublin.

To get back home I checked the schedule for the 133 and saw that there were buses from Donnybrook Church at 17 minutes past the hour until 11.17pm. I decided to get the 10.17 pm bus home. It never arrived. I waited until 10.22 pm where the display showed buses for the next 20 minutes but no mention of the 133. I got the 145 to Ballywaltrim and walked a mile home. Five phantom buses– a level of disorganisation that is almost incomprehensible.

smurgen

Padraig Mor wrote: »

namloc1980 wrote: »

But traffic does affect buses no? They can't fly and we don't have anywhere near enough priority bus measures so that buses can be more regular. If the 205 gets snarled up on Model Farm Rd/College Rd (a regular occurrence) what do you think is going to happen???? Yep, it's going to be late.

Perhaps I wasn't clear? Of course traffic affects buses, but identifying it as the sole problem with the schedules is plain incorrect; of course you know this as it's been pointed out before here - but you keep repeating the same points ad nauseum in service of your own pet anti-car agenda. I've given my own experiences of Bus Eireann here (both peak and off peak hours) and have also mentioned the situation of my - legally blind - neighbour who has now abandoned the 205 bus in favour of walking from UCC to the train station, the bus service is so bad. The traffic isn't (most) of the problem, Bus Eireann is!

Just as an example, here's an excerpt from a letter in today's Irish Times - Dublin obviously, but the same shambles of a service holds true in Cork, including the utterly useless "real time information" (LOL) signs.

Sir, – My daughter told me the 133 Bus Éireann route was unreliable. I didn’t believe her.

On Saturday I arranged to meet a friend in Dublin between 3:30pm and 4pm. The online bus schedule for Saturday showed that there was a 133 bus from Kilmacanogue, Co Wicklow, at 2.41pm. The bus pulled in off the motorway to the stop. I put out my hand but the bus drove past and did not stop. The driver saw me. We made eye contact. Never mind – the electronic display said there was another two 133 buses in 20 minutes. I waited. At the appointed time the display showed that the buses had arrived but there were no buses. So that’s three phantom buses. The display said that there was another 133 bus in 23 minutes. I waited. Again the display said that the bus had arrived but there was no bus. Four phantom buses. There was a 45A which I decided to take to the Dart station in Bray. I then got a Dart to Lansdowne and arrived at 5:30pm. Three hours to get from Kilmacanogue to Dublin.

To get back home I checked the schedule for the 133 and saw that there were buses from Donnybrook Church at 17 minutes past the hour until 11.17pm. I decided to get the 10.17 pm bus home. It never arrived. I waited until 10.22 pm where the display showed buses for the next 20 minutes but no mention of the 133. I got the 145 to Ballywaltrim and walked a mile home. Five phantom buses– a level of disorganisation that is almost incomprehensible.

Completely agree with your post.I think at this stage Cork should get it's own bus service, Bus Eireann isn't fit for purpose. The public transport situation is becoming an emergency.

smurgen

namloc1980 wrote: »

Padraig Mor wrote: »

It may not help, but - as covered here at length before - this is a systemic Bus Eireann issue and giving them the convenient excuse of traffic, bus lanes etc in service of a different pet agenda does nothing to help those forced to rely on the crumbling service.

But traffic does affect buses no? They can't fly and we don't have anywhere near enough priority bus measures so that buses can be more regular. If the 205 gets snarled up on Model Farm Rd/College Rd (a regular occurrence) what do you think is going to happen???? Yep, it's going to be late.

So why not work regular occurring traffic problems into the timetable like every of public transport timetable in the world manages to? Or is Cork special in regard to it's traffic to any other city in the world? Such a cop out.

namloc1980

smurgen wrote: »

So why not work regular occurring traffic problems into the timetable like every of public transport timetable in the world manages to? Or is Cork special in regard to it's traffic to any other city in the world? Such a cop out.

Because traffic changes. Basing your timetables on traffic is a ludicrous idea. And just another source for people to have a moan. What's needed is investment to improve bus corridors etc. Unfortunately Central government always lump Cork in with the other "regional cities".

By the way there is absolutely nothing stopping another company bidding for the PSO routes in Cork when they are up for renewal in 2019.

EdgeCase

I’d rather see some kind of properly devolved running of Cork’s bus network under a similar setup to Dublin Bus. Actually, what would make even more sense would be proper urban transit authorities in all of the 5 cities and their hinterlands with the NTA as a coordinating body to get economies of scale on things like fleet purchases and so on.

An urban bus / tram network is a very local thing in a city and when well run should be part of the fabric of that city. They’re often even part of the city’s visual branding.

You need a civic focus on city transit systems and that’s what we absolutely do not have here other than in Dublin.

Padraig Mor

namloc1980 wrote: »

. What's needed is investment to improve bus corridors etc.

Investment doesn't matter a ****e when Jimmy the bus driver doesn't bother his arse turning up for work on a regular basis with zero repercussions, or prefers to sit chatting with his mates while his cold, wet customers are waiting for him, and when complaints to the depot re such behaviour are made, the people are - literally - just laughed at (as reported on this very forum). I do harbour a suspicion though that many of the people calling for bus corridors etc (not just in Cork) rarely actually use public transport and instead have the ulterior motive of even more space for their own (two wheeled) minority choice of transport.

By the way there is absolutely nothing stopping another company bidding for the PSO routes in Cork when they are up for renewal in 2019.

Point taken. We can live in hope..... As an example, just look at the relatively new Cobh Connect bus service - absolutely flying it, timetable expanded, extra buses required a lot of the time, nice drivers. They also encounter horrendous traffic through Tivoli / Lower Glanmire Rd every rush hour yet never seem to stray too far away from the timetable (but they do add a few minutes padding at peak times).

Padraig Mor

EdgeCase wrote: »

I’d rather see some kind of properly devolved running of Cork’s bus network under a similar setup to Dublin Bus. Actually, what would make even more sense would be proper urban transit authorities in all of the 5 cities and their hinterlands with the NTA as a coordinating body to get economies of scale on things like fleet purchases and so on.

An urban bus / tram network is a very local thing in a city and when well run should be part of the fabric of that city. They’re often even part of the city’s visual branding.

You need a civic focus on city transit systems and that’s what we absolutely do not have here other than in Dublin.

Of course, the ultimate problem is planning - not enough population density to service proper public transport. I think that's beyond solving on this forum though.....

namloc1980

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Investment doesn't matter a ****e when Jimmy the bus driver doesn't bother his arse turning up for work on a regular basis with zero repercussions, or prefers to sit chatting with his mates while his cold, wet customers are waiting for him, and when complaints to the depot re such behaviour are made, the people are - literally - just laughed at (as reported on this very forum). I do harbour a suspicion though that many of the people calling for bus corridors etc (not just in Cork) rarely actually use public transport and instead have the ulterior motive of even more space for their own (two wheeled) minority choice of transport.


Point taken. We can live in hope..... As an example, just look at the relatively new Cobh Connect bus service - absolutely flying it, timetable expanded, extra buses required a lot of the time, nice drivers. They also encounter horrendous traffic through Tivoli / Lower Glanmire Rd every rush hour yet never seem to stray too far away from the timetable (but they do add a few minutes padding at peak times).

Nonsense. I have a city bus and suburban rail tax saver ticket.

EdgeCase

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Of course, the ultimate problem is planning - not enough population density to service proper public transport. I think that's beyond solving on this forum though.....

There's an element of that but it's not exclusively the issue. There's plenty of density in some areas of the city and poor service.

end of the road

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Investment doesn't matter a ****e when Jimmy the bus driver doesn't bother his arse turning up for work on a regular basis with zero repercussions, or prefers to sit chatting with his mates while his cold, wet customers are waiting for him, and when complaints to the depot re such behaviour are made, the people are - literally - just laughed at (as reported on this very forum). I do harbour a suspicion though that many of the people calling for bus corridors etc (not just in Cork) rarely actually use public transport and instead have the ulterior motive of even more space for their own (two wheeled) minority choice of transport.


Point taken. We can live in hope..... As an example, just look at the relatively new Cobh Connect bus service - absolutely flying it, timetable expanded, extra buses required a lot of the time, nice drivers. They also encounter horrendous traffic through Tivoli / Lower Glanmire Rd every rush hour yet never seem to stray too far away from the timetable (but they do add a few minutes padding at peak times).

i presume you have witnessed bus eireann drivers not turning up to work on a regular basis, have reported it to the company and have been told no action has been taken?

Curb Your Enthusiasm

One example.

The 223 service is a bus service that Rochestown, Passage West, Monkstown, Ringaskiddy among other places rely on. One single bus route.

Yet, in the evenings, there are 2x 2 hour gaps in the service, between 19.20 and 21.20 and 23.20. How is this acceptable? Three buses in the space of 6 hours for areas that are 15-30 mins from the city centre.

smurgen

Padraig Mor wrote: »

EdgeCase wrote: »

I’d rather see some kind of properly devolved running of Cork’s bus network under a similar setup to Dublin Bus. Actually, what would make even more sense would be proper urban transit authorities in all of the 5 cities and their hinterlands with the NTA as a coordinating body to get economies of scale on things like fleet purchases and so on.

An urban bus / tram network is a very local thing in a city and when well run should be part of the fabric of that city. They’re often even part of the city’s visual branding.

You need a civic focus on city transit systems and that’s what we absolutely do not have here other than in Dublin.

Of course, the ultimate problem is planning - not enough population density to service proper public transport. I think that's beyond solving on this forum though.....

I don't fully buy the population density excuse either.if there wasn't a high enough population density why would we see the traffic jams we see in certain areas?the population is there as evidenced by the traffic jams.more people would use the bus if there was more busses.also it's almost more or less completely impossible to commute if you're relying on two busses in cork e.g northside to city center and then city center to airport business park.one of them will not be following it's timetable and you will be late for work.

namloc1980

smurgen wrote: »

I don't fully buy the population density excuse either.if there wasn't a high enough population density why would we see the traffic jams we see in certain areas?the population is there as evidenced by the traffic jams.more people would use the bus if there was more busses.also it's almost more or less completely impossible to commute if you're relying on two busses in cork e.g northside to city center and then city center to airport business park.one of them will not be following it's timetable and you will be late for work.

How can a bus follow a timetable when it sits in the same road space as all the other traffic? Serious question. I know some people here think the bus drivers are lazy so and so's with anecdotes about Jimmy the driver sitting around having a chat. But the severe lack of bus priority measures is a huge issue. Buses can only go as fast as the traffic they are sitting in allows. That's a fact of life. Some days that traffic won't be too bad and other days it'll be chronically bad. Building a timetable around the variances of traffic is unworkable.

smurgen

namloc1980 wrote: »

How can a bus follow a timetable when it sits in the same road space as all the other traffic? Serious question. I know some people here think the bus drivers are lazy so and so's with anecdotes about Jimmy the driver sitting around having a chat. But the severe lack of bus priority measures is a huge issue. Buses can only go as fast as the traffic they are sitting in allows. That's a fact of life. Some days that traffic won't be too bad and other days it'll be chronically bad. Building a timetable around the variances of traffic is unworkable.

How?cork isn’t the only city in the world with traffic. If I go on google maps it can predict my delay due to traffic fairly easily. Either bus Eireann is too lazy or incompetent to work such data into their time tables and plan accordingly, which is it?

smurgen

namloc1980 wrote: »

smurgen wrote: »

So why not work regular occurring traffic problems into the timetable like every of public transport timetable in the world manages to? Or is Cork special in regard to it's traffic to any other city in the world? Such a cop out.

Because traffic changes. Basing your timetables on traffic is a ludicrous idea. And just another source for people to have a moan. What's needed is investment to improve bus corridors etc. Unfortunately Central government always lump Cork in with the other "regional cities".

By the way there is absolutely nothing stopping another company bidding for the PSO routes in Cork when they are up for renewal in 2019.

It's not a fair playing field.other companies are not subsidised by the government.remove government funding for bus eireann and then see who wins the biddings.