Men's rights on Abortion?

Martina1991

yesto24 wrote:

I know women whos form of contraception is abortion.

Contraception prevents pregnancy in the 1st place so no, it is not a form of contraception.

The process of abortion by all accounts either via pills or surgery is incredibly painful. Our women are full of shame and have no support and have to bleed out on plane seats or on their bathroom floors.

I don't believe you. What mentally well woman would have an abortion over using a condom let alone shout it from the rooftops.

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SusieBlue

yesto24 wrote: »

I know women whos form of contraception is abortion.

You know women who regularly have self inflicted induced miscarriages, and this is their preference to using a condom or a taking a pill?

Who is this woman? I'd love to speak to her. I doubt she exists.

The Specialist

end of the road wrote: »

we do, hence we know we can do better then abortion on demand and are striving for genuine help and support for those people.

The No side couldn't give less of a **** about these "people" once they can stop them accessing abortion services. Your idea of "doing better" is to try and defeat this referendum, so you can put your fingers back in your ears safe in the knowledge that women will continue to travel to UK for this.

Here's a news flash to the No side - You don't get to sweep this under the rug anymore, and you won't be putting this to bed on Friday to be ignored for another 20 years.

SusieBlue

terryduff12 wrote: »

If the yes vote does come in where are they going to be doing all these procedures will it most likely be all in Dublin, so for someone in Donegal it will probably be cheaper easier and quicker to get a flight over to England along with everyone else that doesn't live close to Dublin. Not to mention the backlog Women probably wont be able to see someone for a year it will be to late by then. They will make a mess of it like everything else.

It will be a GP led service, two tablets taken followed by a heavy period.

Late term terminations will only occur in extreme circumstances such as FFA, these are wanted, loved babies. They will be delivered early and women will give birth the normal way (either induced labour or a cesarean section) in maternity hospitals.

Triceratops Ballet

yesto24 wrote:

I know women whos form of contraception is abortion.

Let's pretend this is true for a sec, so? What business is it of yours? What puts you in a position to judge her?

Mark Hamill

drunkmonkey wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/as-an-irish-woman-who-travelled-for-an-abortion-a-yes-vote-will-not-represent-me-1.3502940?mode=amp

Maybe I'm blind, but where in that article does it touch on your opinion of whether or not travelling for abortion should be criminalised?

Also, what a terrible article, full of strawmen and nonsense.
No-one on the yes-side thinks abortion is cool, or that abortion is empowering or is even trying to encourage abortion. And it's the no-side, with their calls of "social abortions!" that attempts to reduce all women having abortions to someone making a consequence-less choice.

JRant

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

Why do you get to decide what is better for these people, can they not be trusted to decide that for themselves?
And don't tell me "that's how democracy works" why is your way "the right way" and any other way isn't

Hang on a sec. EOTR has been very clear is thier beliefs and completely consistent. I fundamentally disagree with their position but I respect it. You do realise they have a choice as well when it comes to a referendum.

This referendum and the SSM has really brought to the fore a nasty streak in a lot of folk. Not everyone sees the world the same and we are all entitled to our own beliefs. You may think they are wrong but here's the thing, they think you are wrong. To flip the question why is your way the "right" way and the other side are wrong, looking at it from their perspective.

This referendum is exactly how democracy works. People have a right to choice how they vote. I mean we are all about choice or are we?

Outlaw Pete

The Specialist wrote: »

The No side couldn't give less of a **** about these "people" once they can stop them accessing abortion services. Your idea of "doing better" is to try and defeat this referendum, so you can put your fingers back in your ears safe in the knowledge that women will continue to travel to UK for this.

Here's a news flash to the No side - You don't get to sweep this under the rug anymore, and you won't be putting this to bed on Friday to be ignored for another 20 years.

The vast majority of the No side what the hard cases provided for and are not being represented by the politicians as they should. Well No voters agree with most of what Iona stand for, I can guarantee that most of those against repeal are not in agreement with everything they say.

As was said on the debate last night, this referendum is framed in such a way as to twist the arm of the public by using the hard cases as leverage. That's why Harris kept coming back to women have become pregnant through rape and kept shaking his head anytime it was pointed out that 97% of abortions are procured for socioeconomic reasons. It's sanctimonious manipulation and if the Government really cared so much about these women, as they pretend to, then they'd have helped them in the many other ways they could have down the years.

Let's not pretend that this is about anything other than having unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks brought into Ireland. The Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act shows compassion to women who's life is at risk and who are suicidal. Where's the compassion for the human being who has for three months been developing in the womb? There is none.

Simon sanctimoniously says 'Trust women!' Which women? All pregnant women? Every last one of them? Are Irish women much different to those in every other country in western society where abortion on demand is legal? No, of course they're not and so we will soon see the same trends here that we currently see elsewhere. All it is is a meaningless emotive soundbyte.

In any case, what of the hundreds of thousands of prolife women. The mothers, sisters, aunts, daughters. Many whom have shared their stories of abortion regret and also of our health service saving their life's when there was a risk to it while pregnant. They want us all to vote No. Should we not trust them? Or do they not count.

I believe the Yes side will win but legislators have made it clear that if the Vote is No they are still going to try and do something for the hard cases and so I would say to anyone undecided who feels they should Vote now for the very rare cases: don't allow yourself to be manipulated, and have your arm twisted here, if you don't feel abortion unrestricted up to 12 weeks is something you want here, vote No as those hard cases will be looked after before long....


https://twitter.com/rtetwip/status/998188539631222784


.....and so why vote Yes when that will just mean that thousands more developing babies in the womb in Ireland each and every year will have their heartbeats stopped each as a result of it. Currently we have roughly 4000 women travelling abroad each year and even if we say that another 4000 take pills, that puts us no where near the average number of abortions that we should have here for our population.

Simon last night kept referring to the 4000 Irish women that travel as travelling for "health care". No they are not. Aborting a baby for socioeconomic reasons is not healthcare and that is the reasoning behind why the vast majority either make that trip or take those pills. A medical abortion and medical procedure they like to call them too. No, they're nether. Medical procedures are carried out for medical reasons. They are something which are medicinal in nature. Oxford English Dictionary tells us that the definition of medicinal is: 'a substance or plant having healing properties' There is nothing healing about a healthy woman taking her healthy babies life, which again, is what the vast majority of abortions are.

Had this referendum been about providing for the hard cases and them alone, then I would have had no problem voting yes to repeal but I won't be voting yes to what's proposed as it will just lead to us pretty soon having the same trends here that we in the likes of Scotland, Wales, England and Holland, some examples of which are below:

Triceratops Ballet

JRant wrote: »

Hang on a sec. EOTR has been very clear is thier beliefs and completely consistent. I fundamentally disagree with their position but I respect it. You do realise they have a choice as well when it comes to a referendum.

This referendum and the SSM has really brought to the fore a nasty streak in a lot of folk. Not everyone sees the world the same and we are all entitled to our own beliefs. You may think they are wrong but here's the thing, they think you are wrong. To flip the question why is your way the "right" way and the other side are wrong, looking at it from their perspective.

This referendum is exactly how democracy works. People have a right to choice how they vote. I mean we are all about choice or are we?

I don't dispute his right to a position and I know he's been consistent. Nowhere have I said he isn't entitled to his beliefs or to vote according to them.
I'd like to understand where it comes from though, I'd like to know why he believes his way is better?

Am I not allowed to ask someone how they arrived at their position now? is that not the basis of a discussion, which is what we're here to do?

I'm aware of how democracy works that's why I didn't need an answer that said that's how democracy works. I know everyone gets a vote and I understand the implications of that. I don't think it's even the slightest bit unreasonable to ask on what basis someone thinks repealing the 8th is wrong and how they arrived at that. If it's wrong to ask someone questions about their position in a discussion I guess we can all pack up and go home then they can pull the plug over at boards HQ.

Everyone has a right to an opinion, but everyone doesn't have a right to not have that opinion questioned, we all learn by having our beliefs questioned either by others or by ourselves.

I don't know what on earth you're inferring from that nasty comment, i haven't been nasty to anyone

Outlaw Pete

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Had this referendum been about providing for the hard cases and them alone, then I would have had no problem voting yes to repeal but I won't be voting yes to what's proposed as it will just lead to us pretty soon having the same trends here that we in the likes of Scotland, Wales, England and Holland,

TBH, I'm voting yes simply because once it's in then it can be researched better without this idea that Ireland is somehow different from everywhere else. Once it's in, then changes to the law will occur without the need for a referendum, and the emotional aspect can be removed with a more systematic approach taken. Hopefully, (and past experience tells me that this is unlikely), proper research and analysis on the issue with Irish cases, will provide a better guide for how Abortion should be implemented for Irish women.

I honestly don't see how it can be prevented at this stage, and will be brought up again & again until it's passed.

SusieBlue wrote: »

You know women who regularly have self inflicted induced miscarriages, and this is their preference to using a condom or a taking a pill?

Who is this woman? I'd love to speak to her. I doubt she exists.

I personally know three women who, by the time, that they were 24 years old had over 6 abortions. Admittedly, this was in China where Abortion is completely legal (An abortion can cost as little as 70 euro) and not seen with any stigma. Sex education isn't particularly common there, but even if it was, many people just don't care to use contraceptives. In many ways, China's approach to abortion is what the "Yes" campaigners want... (not referring about the forced abortions btw)

JRant

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

I don't dispute his right to a position and I know he's been consistent. Nowhere have I said he isn't entitled to his beliefs or to vote according to them.
I'd like to understand where it comes from though, I'd like to know why he believes his way is better?

Am I not allowed to ask someone how they arrived at their position now? is that not the basis of a discussion, which is what we're here to do?

I'm aware of how democracy works that's why I didn't need an answer that said that's how democracy works. I know everyone gets a vote and I understand the implications of that. I don't think it's even the slightest bit unreasonable to ask on what basis someone thinks repealing the 8th is wrong and how they arrived at that. If it's wrong to ask someone questions about their position in a discussion I guess we can all pack up and go home then they can pull the plug over at boards HQ.

Everyone has a right to an opinion, but everyone doesn't have a right to not have that opinion questioned, we all learn by having our beliefs questioned either by others or by ourselves.

I don't know what on earth you're inferring from that nasty comment, i haven't been nasty to anyone

Then why frame it in such a way then? Asking "why don't you trust women" and "who are you to decide" are unnecessarily confrontational IMO.

If you are so comfortable with how democracy works then why bring it up in the first place.

You are perfectly entitled to ask whatever questions you want so don't be putting words in my mouth either.

There's is a conversation to be had on men's rights regarding abortion and it could do without being framed in the same nonsense that we see over in the Repeal the 8th thread.

I think women should absolutely have a right to full body autonomy and the 8th has no place in our constitution. I also believe men should have the right to not be forced into Parenthood and have the same choices available as women. No person should be forced into being a parent by another.

Jenneke87

klaz;107072633

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Had this referendum been about providing for the hard cases and them alone, then I would have had no problem voting yes to repeal but I won't be voting yes to what's proposed as it will just lead to us pretty soon having the same trends here that we in the likes of Scotland, Wales, England and Holland, 

TBH, I'm voting yes simply because once it's in then it can be researched better without this idea that Ireland is somehow different from everywhere else. Once it's in, then changes to the law will occur without the need for a referendum, and the emotional aspect can be removed with a more systematic approach taken. Hopefully, (and past experience tells me that this is unlikely), proper research and analysis on the issue with Irish cases, will provide a better guide for how Abortion should be implemented for Irish women.

I honestly don't see how it can be prevented at this stage, and will be brought up again & again until it's passed.  

SusieBlue wrote: »

You know women who regularly have self inflicted induced miscarriages, and this is their preference to using a condom or a taking a pill?

Who is this woman? I'd love to speak to her. I doubt she exists.

I personally know three women who, by the time, that they were 24 years old had over 6 abortions. Admittedly, this was in China where Abortion is completely legal (An abortion can cost as little as 70 euro) and not seen with any stigma. Sex education isn't particularly common there, but even if it was, many people just don't care to use contraceptives. In many ways, China's approach to abortion is what the "Yes" campaigners want... (not referring about the forced abortions btw)

So you know of three women on the other side of the world who live in a country where there's a single child policy and that proves that women will start using abortion as a form of contraception? I live in a country where abortion is legal and I've never come across anyone who thinks: Well, I just had number 4, in a few months I'll come back for nr. 5 because it's sooo much easier than just taking the pill". I spent a lot of time on forums where women can discuss their experience regarding abortion, ask questions and tell their stories. I've never met anyone with such a blasé attitude towards abortion and getting pregnant multiple times for the hell of it. How anyone can think that this is what the Yes side wants is mind boggling. What we want is that women can safely terminate should they want to, not via a backdoor system where you need to ship off your own women to another country. Abortion has always happend and will continue to happen. Prohibiting it doesn't mean it's not going to happen in the same way that prohibiting the use and selling of drugs hasn't stopped people from taking it.

I also wonder what the " genuine" support is that the No Side wants to offer that they haven't been able to do since the 8th was instated. What are your plans, what are you going to do?

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JRant

....... wrote: »

So because 3 Chinese women who have not experienced good sex education and where people culturally dont care to use contraceptives have had multiple abortions by the age of 24 you think we should retain the 8th Amendment?

Even with Chinas appalling history of human rights abuses, this is not really a credible story.

Ah here, try actually reading what they wrote would you.

_Dara_

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Well, afaik, the one child policy has been done away with but there is very likely a cultural hangover from it being in place for so long. We’re all subject to social conditioning so one would have to take that into account when considering Chinese women having abortions almost casually. For a long time, abortions had to happen casually.

Klaz simply can’t compare Irish and Chinese womrn without considering the cultural differences. Not only was there a one child policy but girls also were much less valued than boys.

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....... wrote: »

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Where did I say we should retain the 8th? [Perhaps read it again, and see where I said I would be voting yes?]

As for these women not receiving good sex ed, you really believe Ireland provides good sex ed to it's teens or older? There are heaps of threads on boards discussing how pathetic the sex ed has been in the past. The point was though that there are women out there who do not see Abortion as such a terrible act, and will use it rather than simply using contraceptives.

Even with Chinas appalling history of human rights abuses, this is not really a credible story.

Perhaps do some reading on how common abortions are in China before declaring credibility. But then, any personal experience can be ignored, and I get that.

_Dara_

Deleted User wrote: »

Where did I say we should retain the 8th? [Perhaps read it again, and see where I said I would be voting yes?]

As for these women not receiving good sex ed, you really believe Ireland provides good sex ed to it's teens or older? There are heaps of threads on boards discussing how pathetic the sex ed has been in the past. The point was though that there are women out there who do not see Abortion as such a terrible act, and will use it rather than simply using contraceptives.

Perhaps do some reading on how common abortions are in China before declaring credibility. But then, any personal experience can be ignored, and I get that.

Of course they are common in China, for a long time, they had to happen. That’s going to cause a mindset where they become normalised. A society doesn’t just shake that off overnight.

As for sex ed in Ireland, we’re not doing too badly. The sex ed I received 20 years ago wasn’t bad at all. We have a much lower rate of teenage pregnancies than the UK. And as a teen, sex ed was easy to find via magazines. Censorship is much more commonplace in China.

JRant

....... wrote: »

I did.

They were talking about 3 chinese women having 6 abortions by the age of 24 and they included the fact that china doesnt have good sex education commonly and that chinese people arent bothered with contraception.

I think the story isnt credible simply because I know what a woman experiences when she has an abortion. No sane woman would choose abortions over contraception if contraception is available.

They also alleged that the Yes campaign wanted the Chinese regime - an unsubstantiated claim that I think we can dismiss as nonsense dont you?

Now if youd care to point out what bit I got wrong - go ahead?

Well for a start try reading their very first paragraph where they clearly state they were voting Yes. So you definitely got it completely wrong.

Jenneke87

Jenneke87 wrote: »

So you know of three women on the other side of the world who live in a country where there's a single child policy and that proves that women will start using abortion as a form of contraception?

One child policy has been gone for a number of years now. And I didn't say that women would start using abortion as a form of contraceptive. Some women will, but likely cultural norms will encourage most women not to. However, I wouldn't be too sure of the same for new generations.

And that is their choice, should abortion become available in those terms.

I live in a country where abortion is legal and I've never come across anyone who thinks: Well, I just had number 4, in a few months I'll come back for nr. 5 because it's sooo much easier than just taking the pill". I spent a lot of time on forums where women can discuss their experience regarding abortion, ask questions and tell their stories. I've never met anyone with such a blasé attitude towards abortion and getting pregnant multiple times for the hell of it. How anyone can think that this is what the Yes side wants is mind boggling. What we want is that women can safely terminate should they want to, not via a backdoor system where you need to ship off your own women to another country. Abortion has always happend and will continue to happen. Prohibiting it doesn't mean it's not going to happen in the same way that prohibiting the use and selling of drugs hasn't stopped people from taking it.

This referendum is a first step. Once it's passed there will be further changes to the law that do not require the people to agree on, and over time, we will likely get to the point where Abortion is as available as in other countries.

I'm not against Abortion, and I'm hard-pressed to see how you could have decided I was based on what I wrote. It's really quite funny how the pro-choice people here are so aggressive on their posts.

I also wonder what the " genuine" support is that the No Side wants to offer that they haven't been able to do since the 8th was instated. What are your plans, what are you going to do?

I'm going to be happy that women have the choice. Isn't that a shocker! To imagine that while I am suspicious of where the Abortion laws will eventually move towards... but also that I would also be of the mind that women should have these options. Gosh.

_Dara_

_Dara_ wrote: »

Well, afaik, the one child policy has been done away with but there is very likely a cultural hangover from it being in place for so long. We’re all subject to social conditioning so one would have to take that into account when considering Chinese women having abortions almost casually. For a long time, abortions had to happen casually.

Klaz simply can’t compare Irish and Chinese womrn without considering the cultural differences. Not only was there a one child policy but girls also were much less valued than boys.

Having lived in China, I'm well aware of the cultural differences. I'm also aware of the manner in which people behave regardless of culture. This is the problem with these kinds of debates. If you suggest that some people will do A, then it must mean that all people will do A. Some women will use abortion casually, so therefore it's a statement that bringing in Abortion will mean that all women will do so. The poster I responded to suggested how ridiculous it was that women would use Abortion rather than use contraceptive... I merely pointed out that in some countries, some do.

Of course they are common in China, for a long time, they had to happen. That’s going to cause a mindset where they become normalised. A society doesn’t just shake that off overnight.

Didn't you see where I said I was not referring to forced abortions? Maybe I should have highlighted. Abortion by choice has been available for a rather long time there.

As for sex ed in Ireland, we’re not doing too badly. The sex ed I received 20 years ago wasn’t bad at all. We have a much lower rate of teenage pregnancies than the UK. And as a teen, sex ed was easy to find via magazines. Censorship is much more commonplace in China.

Censorship is everywhere in China. Nah. I get your point..

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....... wrote: »

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Ahh... your experience trumps mine. Gotcha. right. Love that logic.

They also alleged that the Yes campaign wanted the Chinese regime - an unsubstantiated claim that I think we can dismiss as nonsense dont you?

Now if youd care to point out what bit I got wrong - go ahead?

Well... It's a bit of a leap to suggest that I said the Yes campaign wants to Chinese regime. :rolleyes:

_Dara_

Deleted User wrote: »

Having lived in China, I'm well aware of the cultural differences. I'm also aware of the manner in which people behave regardless of culture. This is the problem with these kinds of debates. If you suggest that some people will do A, then it must mean that all people will do A. Some women will use abortion casually, so therefore it's a statement that bringing in Abortion will mean that all women will do so. The poster I responded to suggested how ridiculous it was that women would use Abortion rather than use contraceptive... I merely pointed out that in some countries, some do.



Didn't you see where I said I was not referring to forced abortions? Maybe I should have highlighted. Abortion by choice has been available for a rather long time there.



Censorship is everywhere in China. Nah. I get your point..

I have no doubt some women casually have abortions. My point is that I think the amount doing so in a country like Ireland will be a tiny minority and citing women casually doing so in a country where abortion is normalised due to an only recently defunct state policy as a comparison is flawed.

igCorcaigh

I do agree that it is the woman who has the ultimate say in this matter.
But I also agree that society overall should be a part of the decision to change the laws of the state.

igCorcaigh

Oh! It worked; all my posts today went to 404.
Maybe it's fixed now.

Anybody else experience that?
I tweeted Boards about it, and they were very quick in replying to me; good on them.

Mark Hamill

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Had this referendum been about providing for the hard cases and them alone, then I would have had no problem voting yes to repeal but I won't be voting yes to what's proposed as it will just lead to us pretty soon having the same trends here that we in the likes of Scotland, Wales, England and Holland, some examples of which are below:

There is no evidence at all that Ireland will suddenly follow the same abortion practices as any other country - none at all. I debunked that in my third paragraph in this post.

_Dara_

_Dara_ wrote: »

I have no doubt some women casually have abortions. My point is that I think the amount doing so in a country like Ireland will be a tiny minority and citing women casually doing so in a country where abortion is normalised due to an only recently defunct state policy as a comparison is flawed.

Except that I was responding to the poster who believed that no women would behave that way. I freely acknowledge that the numbers behaving that way in a western country are likely to be rather low. Still happens though.

Honestly, I'm not concerned about what will happen within the next 20-30 years. Our culture is still linked very strongly with the Catholic upbringing, and certain viewpoints on the value of 'life'. However, I have seen shifts in other western countries away from the more traditional outlook, and I don't see why we wouldn't head down the same road as the States.

Still... I am actually pro-choice (kinda). I will vote for women to have the choice for abortion, because they should have that right.

_Dara_

I would like to see abortion available up to 12 weeks. But I also think we as a society should work towards reducing the level of abortion. Sex ed will play a big part in this as well as acknowkedging that teenagers are having sex and making it easier for them to access contraception anonymously.

I say anonymously because I hail from a small west of Ireland town where everyone knew everyone. There are many towns like this across the country. A small town really is small in Ireland. I didn’t have sex as a teen at home because the idea of going to my local pharmacy where I knew all the staff to buy contraception was mortifying. But not all teens will abstain. We need to be creative.

JRant

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Having lived in China, I'm well aware of the cultural differences. I'm also aware of the manner in which people behave regardless of culture. This is the problem with these kinds of debates. If you suggest that some people will do A, then it must mean that all people will do A. Some women will use abortion casually, so therefore it's a statement that bringing in Abortion will mean that all women will do so. The poster I responded to suggested how ridiculous it was that women would use Abortion rather than use contraceptive... I merely pointed out that in some countries, some do.



Didn't you see where I said I was not referring to forced abortions? Maybe I should have highlighted. Abortion by choice has been available for a rather long time there.



Censorship is everywhere in China. Nah. I get your point..

Fully agree with you. Of course some women will be more casual than others about it. To suggest otherwise flies in the face of what we know about humans in general, ie people make decisions for a whole raft of reasons. Making blanket statements that no woman would ever do that is completely wrong.