Men's rights on Abortion?

SusieBlue · 22-05-2018 05:24PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The only confusion is on the yes side. If a doctor is confused they need to educate themselves as they have no right being in a maternity ward.

On my last point I wasn't clear I was speaking about if there is a choice to make between the woman and the babys life not every mother will take the option to save themselves over their child if it's viable. That needs to be legislated for. If a woman want's herself terminated or knows she's going to die durning birth. (this probably isn't an issue now with the amount of C sections).

I know how your drawing your conclusion and in a perfect world your right to think that way but people will be doing it for all kinds of reasons, a lot for financial and due to their circumstances. The facts are it will be mainly young and poor women.

And do you really think that its an awful thing, if a young, poor woman has an abortion? Or do you think the alternative, which is forcing her to remain pregnant against her will, better?
And do you think that outcome is in the best interests of the babies being born to unwilling mothers?
Because that's the bit that I don't understand.

You can't claim to LoveBoth and in your next breath say you realise that young, poor women will suffer the most because of this law and that you're ok with that.

end of the road · 22-05-2018 05:34PM

facehugger99 wrote: »

You do realise the proposed amendment won't make abortion compulsory?

no but it will allow it for any reason whether genuine or not.

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

yeah the majority do and will continue to do so. People won't be forced to have abortions if the 8th is repealed.

If the 8th is repealed people will simply have the choice. Women will be entitled to informed consent with regard to treatment during their pregnancies, couples will continue to have children. Unfortunate couples who are dealing with an FFA pregnancy will not be required to travel should they decide to end the pregnancy, they can avail of the termination here and bury the much wanted baby here at home. Those who chose to see it through will remain to have that option. We won't have women or the families of women having to go to the hight court to have their rights to bodily autonomy respected. The sky will not fall in and the world will continue to turn and we'll just be a country that treats it's women a little better.

but a country which hugely devalues life. we don't need abortion on demand to implement a system that treats women the best we possibly can, we can do so much better.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

His signature is daft as a brush. With the 8th amendment, no one has any choice.

i have no problem with people not having a choice to legally end life in the womb for any reason in ireland. if a life is to be ended, there must be a very good reason for it.

Triceratops Ballet · 22-05-2018 05:43PM

end of the road wrote: »

but a country which hugely devalues life. we don't need abortion on demand to implement a system that treats women the best we possibly can, we can do so much better.

I don't disagree, we need to repeal the 8th. That does not necessarily have to mean abortion "on demand" (obnoxious phrasing btw, everything is available on demand if you ask for it. TV on demand, turn on the tap there's water "on demand" it's not like abortion would be supplied without demand)

Life had value before 1983, it did after and it will continue to do so after the 8th is repealed whenever that may be

drunkmonkey · 22-05-2018 05:44PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

And do you really think that its an awful thing, if a young, poor woman has an abortion? Or do you think the alternative, which is forcing her to remain pregnant against her will, better?
And do you think that outcome is in the best interests of the babies being born to unwilling mothers?
Because that's the bit that I don't understand.

You can't claim to LoveBoth and in your next breath say you realise that young, poor women will suffer the most because of this law and that you're ok with that.

Yes I do think it's awful for social or financial reasons. I don't think any woman should have to decide abortion is an option over paper. That says to me we don't have the proper health care and social structures in place to support women.
That's the bit I think needs to be fixed first. We'll look back if there's a yes vote and realise were after missing an opportunity to really support women all through their lives.

I'm ok if I save a life, I'll save a mouse if I see a cat has it cornered. I love all not just both.

Triceratops Ballet · 22-05-2018 05:50PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Yes I do think it's awful for social or financial reasons. I don't think any woman should have to decide abortion is an option over paper. That says to me we don't have the proper health care and social structures in place to support women.
That's the bit I think needs to be fixed first. We'll look back if there's a yes vote and realise were after missing an opportunity to really support women all through their lives.

So where are the supports? the 8th came in in 1983 that's 35 years and women are still having abortions because they can't afford another child.
It's all well and good to say this is what we should be doing, maybe it is, but we're not doing it we haven't done it in the last 35 years, before that we locked these women up in laundries to pay for their "sins" we need to face up to the fact that we as a country are actively failing these women and provide them with the care and understanding that they are asking for

drunkmonkey · 22-05-2018 06:03PM

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

So where are the supports? the 8th came in in 1983 that's 35 years and women are still having abortions because they can't afford another child.
It's all well and good to say this is what we should be doing, maybe it is, but we're not doing it we haven't done it in the last 35 years

Yea Leo where are the supports? Why hasn't it been done.

SusieBlue · 22-05-2018 06:09PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Yea Leo where are the supports? Why hasn't it been done.

Because neither the government nor society gave a sh*t about these women in any sense of the word until the referendum was announced.

JRant · 22-05-2018 06:15PM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Personally, I am totally against paper / financial abortions as they give men a way of not facing up to their responsibilities.

Given that one of the reasons I don't think it should be legal for healthy women to abort healthy babies is because I feel they should accept the responsibility that they have created a baby, why would I then out of the other side of my mouth say that I think men should have a way of running away from theirs.

That would be hypocritical in my eyes.

At least you're consistent Pete.

RocketRaccoon · 22-05-2018 08:26PM

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

So where are the supports? the 8th came in in 1983 that's 35 years and women are still having abortions because they can't afford another child.
It's all well and good to say this is what we should be doing, maybe it is, but we're not doing it we haven't done it in the last 35 years, before that we locked these women up in laundries to pay for their "sins" we need to face up to the fact that we as a country are actively failing these women and provide them with the care and understanding that they are asking for

So now it's gone from abortions in case of FFA or health risks to the mother or baby to just abortions for all who can't afford to raise a child? As I said months ago in this thread, this will end up as a lot of women getting abortions instead of just using contraception.

Triceratops Ballet · 22-05-2018 08:35PM

RocketRaccoon wrote:

So now it's gone from abortions in case of FFA or health risks to the mother or baby to just abortions for all who can't afford to raise a child? As I said months ago in this thread, this will end up as a lot of women getting abortions instead of just using contraception.

It hasn't gone from anything to anything women have always and will always seek to end pregnancies for a myriad of reasons since the dawn of time. I haven't changed my stance in the slightest I support the right to choose always have always will.

Your claim that women/couples will choose abortion over contraception is baseless hyperbole

terryduff12 · 22-05-2018 08:44PM

If the yes vote does come in where are they going to be doing all these procedures will it most likely be all in Dublin, so for someone in Donegal it will probably be cheaper easier and quicker to get a flight over to England along with everyone else that doesn't live close to Dublin. Not to mention the backlog Women probably wont be able to see someone for a year it will be to late by then. They will make a mess of it like everything else.

RocketRaccoon · 22-05-2018 08:51PM

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

It hasn't gone from anything to anything women have always and will always seek to end pregnancies for a myriad of reasons since the dawn of time. I haven't changed my stance in the slightest I support the right to choose always have always will.

Your claim that women/couples will choose abortion over contraception is baseless hyperbole

Its not baseless anything. I've seen it with my own eyes in England. Laughing and joking while waiting for the procedure and proudly saying it wasn't the first.

Smertrius · 22-05-2018 08:51PM

its last week and the no people are going around the houses handing out flyers saying no, this is against the rules of the referendum

RocketRaccoon · 22-05-2018 08:54PM

Smertrius wrote: »

its last week and the no people are going around the houses handing out flyers saying no, this is against the rules of the referendum

My wife went to bed last night at about 11, I came home from work at 5 this morning. In those 6 hours someone was at our door and put a leaflet through the letterbox.

Triceratops Ballet · 22-05-2018 08:56PM

RocketRaccoon wrote:

Its not baseless anything. I've seen it with my own eyes in England. Laughing and joking while waiting for the procedure and proudly saying it wasn't the first.

How are women supposed to behave in that situation? Should they be sad and ashamed?
What percentage of women would you say use abortion instead of contraception?

Triceratops Ballet · 22-05-2018 08:58PM

Smertrius wrote:

its last week and the no people are going around the houses handing out flyers saying no, this is against the rules of the referendum

Is it? I had a flyer yesterday and today

Martina1991 · 22-05-2018 09:11PM

RocketRaccoon wrote:

As I said months ago in this thread, this will end up as a lot of women getting abortions instead of just using contraception.

Disgusting comment.
Have you read any account of women who have had an abortion. Surgical or via pills.

The pain, the bleeding, the isolation, the shame, no health support for fear of prosecution.

And you think so little of women that we would choose that over a condom.

RocketRaccoon · 22-05-2018 09:13PM

Martina1991 wrote: »

Disgusting comment.
Have you read any account of women who have had an abortion. Surgical or via pills.

The pain, the bleeding, the isolation, the shame, no health support for fear of prosecution.

And you think so little of women that we would choose that over a condom.

I don't need to have read anything.

Martina1991 · 22-05-2018 09:21PM

RocketRaccoon wrote:

I don't need to have read anything.

Then you are completely ignorant. And do not care about any woman effected by the 8th.

Smertrius · 22-05-2018 09:27PM

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

Is it? I had a flyer yesterday and today

a flyer is advertising you not suppose advertise the referendum now ,the last 2weeks before referendum day you not suppose advertise referendum, the last 2weeks suppose be free from advertising yes or no ,they are the rules like it or not

Jenneke87 · 22-05-2018 10:15PM

RocketRaccoon;107067695

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

It hasn't gone from anything to anything women have always and will always seek to end pregnancies for a myriad of reasons since the dawn of time. I haven't changed my stance in the slightest I support the right to choose always have always will.

Your claim that women/couples will choose abortion over contraception is baseless hyperbole

Its not baseless anything. I've seen it with my own eyes in England. Laughing and joking while waiting for the procedure and proudly saying it wasn't the first.

And I've seen with my own eyes the women in abortion clinics here, myself included. No-one was laughing and joking or proudly exclaiming this wasn't there first. If anything there was silence and a somber atmosphere, women silently crying, being comforted by friends.

Will there be women who use abortion as contraception? Possibly, women too can do stupid things, just like men can. For the majority of women, and I can speak from experience an abortion is the very last thing you want and you only do it if you see no way out. What sense would it make to use abortion as contraception, as the whole point of contraception is to not get pregnant in the first place! Why put yourself through all of that trouble when you could go on the pill, have a coil/implant with so much more ease. Women, who do not want to get pregnant usually dread un unplanned pregnancy and do as much as they can to avoid one not actively go after one. People who use this argument vastly, vastly underestimate what an emotional and time consuming process it is, why would any rational person put themselves through that regularly. I don't know how it will be done in Ireland but here in the Netherlands the abortion clinic informs your doctor that you had the procedure. I believe that if they see that you're getting one on a regular basis you will get a stern talking to asking what the f*ck your doing and have you never heard of the pill and all that.. That and the women that do use abortion because they couldn't be bothered not getting pregnant in the first place...maybe it's for the best that they don't actually go through with it.

RocketRaccoon · 22-05-2018 10:21PM

Martina1991 wrote: »

Then you are completely ignorant. And do not care about any woman effected by the 8th.

Or, as i have stated, I have been through this.

end of the road · 22-05-2018 11:34PM

Martina1991 wrote: »

Then you are completely ignorant. And do not care about any woman effected by the 8th.

we very much do care about woman effected by the 8th. that is why we are voting no, because we can do so so much better then the proposals being offered to replace it. we want the best possible solutions and the best possible outcomes. the proposals being put forward are an insult as they allow (all be it up to 12 weeks) abortion on demand. we can do better then that. we are better then that.

Martina1991 · 22-05-2018 11:54PM

end of the road wrote:

we very much do care about woman effected by the 8th. that is why we are voting no, because we can do so so much better then the proposals being offered to replace it. we want the best possible solutions and the best possible outcomes. the proposals being put forward are an insult as they allow (all be it up to 12 weeks) abortion on demand. we can do better then that. we are better then that.

We can do better? Like What?
Forcing a women to carry a pregnancy against her will and risk her life.

Forcing victims of rape and abuse to have babies they didn't want or can't cope with.

Forcing women who carry wanted pregnancies who have FFA to carry to term for months knowing the baby will die.

The no side never consider the circumstances of the women in crisis.

_Dara_ · 23-05-2018 12:05AM

RocketRaccoon wrote: »

Its not baseless anything. I've seen it with my own eyes in England. Laughing and joking while waiting for the procedure and proudly saying it wasn't the first.

I laugh and joke in the hospital waiting room with my family whilst getting cancer treatments or waiting to receive my latest scan results. Inside, I’m often absolutely bricking it and it’s at exactly times that those that people try to lighten the mood.

end of the road · 23-05-2018 01:16AM

Martina1991 wrote: »

We can do better? Like What?
Forcing a women to carry a pregnancy against her will and risk her life.

Forcing victims of rape and abuse to have babies they didn't want or can't cope with.

Forcing women who carry wanted pregnancies who have FFA to carry to term for months knowing the baby will die.

nope, by insuring those can be legislated for and no changes can be made without a referendum. that at least would get many of us no voters on side.

Martina1991 wrote: »

The no side never consider the circumstances of the women in crisis.

we do, hence we know we can do better then abortion on demand and are striving for genuine help and support for those people.

Triceratops Ballet · 23-05-2018 06:52AM

end of the road wrote:

we do, hence we know we can do better then abortion on demand and are striving for genuine help and support for those people.

Why do you get to decide what is better for these people, can they not be trusted to decide that for themselves?
And don't tell me "that's how democracy works" why is your way "the right way" and any other way isn't

yesto24 · 23-05-2018 06:57AM

Martina1991 wrote: »

Disgusting comment.
Have you read any account of women who have had an abortion. Surgical or via pills.

The pain, the bleeding, the isolation, the shame, no health support for fear of prosecution.

And you think so little of women that we would choose that over a condom.

I know women whos form of contraception is abortion.

pauldla · 23-05-2018 06:57AM

end of the road wrote: »

nope, by insuring those can be legislated for and no changes can be made without a referendum. that at least would get many of us no voters on side.

we do, hence we know we can do better then abortion on demand and are striving for genuine help and support for those people.

Love Both have had 35 years to do better. Why has it taken an impending referendum (and a likelihood of defeat) to get them talking about 'doing better'? Where the hell have they been for the last three decades?

:mad:

23-05-2018 07:04AM

yesto24 wrote: »

I know women whos form of contraception is abortion.

Ah bless, you do know what contraception is right?
It is impossible to use abortion as a contraceptive because the woman is already pregnant.

Men's rights on Abortion?

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