Jordan Peterson interview on C4

Mountainsandh

Giraffe Box wrote: »

You're obviously a big fan of JP and good luck to you.
The above reads like you're almost attempting to justify your new-found attachment, don't worry, it's not a crime, you're entitled to like him.

''I don't really know what I am politically, I used to think I was center left, but then sometimes I think I'm center right, I just don't know enough about politics to decide.''

Not buying the above, particularly from someone of your age.
I've never met a left-wing person, not one, who doesn't say that they are of the left or left-leaning.
However, I have encountered lots and lots of seemingly confused people who claim to be unsure of where they stand on the political spectrum vis-à-vis left or right.

So if you need some help with this one, I'm telling you now for free.
You're not of the left......and you know you're not.

It's very strange, your interpretation of my post seems so detached from reality.

Let's just agree that we must be living in 2 parallel universes. In your universe, I can be and think whatever you like.

Call Me Jimmy

Giraffe Box wrote: »

You're obviously a big fan of JP and good luck to you.
The above reads like you're almost attempting to justify your new-found attachment, don't worry, it's not a crime, you're entitled to like him.

''I don't really know what I am politically, I used to think I was center left, but then sometimes I think I'm center right, I just don't know enough about politics to decide.''

Not buying the above, particularly from someone of your age.
I've never met a left-wing person, not one, who doesn't say that they are of the left or left-leaning.
However, I have encountered lots and lots of seemingly confused people who claim to be unsure of where they stand on the political spectrum vis-à-vis left or right.

So if you need some help with this one, I'm telling you now for free.
You're not of the left......and you know you're not.

what side is someone on if they are socially liberal and economically conservative?

Giraffe Box

Mountainsandh wrote: »

It's very strange, your interpretation of my post seems so detached from reality.

Let's just agree that we must be living in 2 parallel universes. In your universe, I can be and think whatever you like.

I don't agree that we live in two parallel universes, that's a bit extreme.
We just disagree.;)

Giraffe Box

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

what side is someone on if they are socially liberal and economically conservative?

Jimmy, I don't know if you're old enough to remember the Progressive Democrats, but they would in my opinion fit neatly into the above category.

As a political party, the PDs were known as a right-wing, or at best, a centre-right group. I don't think I've ever heard any of the following, or their views, being described as left-wing: Mary Harney, Michael McDowell, Bobby Molloy, Pat Cox etc.

Mountainsandh

Giraffe Box wrote: »

I don't agree that we live in two parallel universes, that's a bit extreme.
We just disagree.;)

Ok so, only one universe, but then you have to acknowledge that you are presupposing a lot of things about me that are wrong, because now I'm telling you they are wrong.

You cannot just pick a person in an online discussion forum, read their post, misinterpret according to your biases, and declare that they are one way or another.
It is ludicrously arrogant to decide that one poster leans one way or the other politically, and that they were not aware of it. (I'm not angry typing this by the way, just in case it comes across that way, I am incredulous and amused.)

That's why the theory of a universe where I could be whatever you imagine me to be is so befitting somehow.

Oh shoot, the candle on Jordy's shrine just went off, have to dash

Call Me Jimmy

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

what side is someone on if they are socially liberal and economically conservative?

i suppose you could argue terms liberal and conservative are being somewhat misused when people say those things, or at least, they're probably a bit misleading.

The above seems to describe a classic liberal (strongly favours civil rights but believs in a need for personal economic responsibility), they're usually centrists, and could be centre left or centre right.

Jordan Peterson seems to me to be a 'classic' classical liberal.

Giraffe Box

Mountainsandh wrote: »

So much bitterness in your posts.......




... so if he's loaded now for the past few years, good for him.

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Ok so, only one universe, but then you have to acknowledge that you are presupposing a lot of things about me that are wrong, because now I'm telling you they are wrong.

You cannot just pick a person in an online discussion forum, read their post, misinterpret according to your biases, and declare that they are one way or another.
It is ludicrously arrogant to decide that one poster leans one way or the other politically, and that they were not aware of it. (I'm not angry typing this by the way, just in case it comes across that way, I am incredulous and amused.)

That's why the theory of a universe where I could be whatever you imagine me to be is so befitting somehow.

Oh shoot, the candle on Jordy's shrine just went off, have to dash

''You cannot just pick a person in an online discussion forum, read their post, misinterpret according to your biases....''
The same way you misinterpreted 'bitterness' in my posts according to your bias, that type of thing is it?

I'll say it again, and if you listen to the candidates in the next general election you'll hear it for yourself.
If asked, a huge majority, if not all, of those on the left will say (admit) that they're on the left.
A huge majority, if not all, of those on the right will prevaricate, obfuscate, or like you, claim not to know where they stand on the left/right political spectrum.

Mountainsandh

The same way you misinterpreted 'bitterness' in my posts according to your bias, that type of thing is it?

Bitterness is what transpires from the posts (a mood in literary terms if you like), not something that I assume you think or are, as you were previously doing with my post.

But these posts are tit for tat, pointless and derailing the thread. You may freely decide what my political leanings are, I don't reeally care that you do, and let's just let people chat about JP and the interview.

Giraffe Box

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Bitterness is what transpires from the posts (a mood in literary terms if you like), not something that I assume you think or are, as you were previously doing with my post.

But these posts are tit for tat, pointless and derailing the thread. You may freely decide what my political leanings are, I don't reeally care that you do, and let's just let people chat about JP and the interview.

At last, something we can agree on, it's the above in bold.

xckjoo

Giraffe Box wrote: »

You're obviously a big fan of JP and good luck to you.
The above reads like you're almost attempting to justify your new-found attachment, don't worry, it's not a crime, you're entitled to like him.

''I don't really know what I am politically, I used to think I was center left, but then sometimes I think I'm center right, I just don't know enough about politics to decide.''

Not buying the above, particularly from someone of your age.
I've never met a left-wing person, not one, who doesn't say that they are of the left or left-leaning.
However, I have encountered lots and lots of seemingly confused people who claim to be unsure of where they stand on the political spectrum vis-à-vis left or right.

So if you need some help with this one, I'm telling you now for free.
You're not of the left......and you know you're not.

What a strange statement. How do you tell if someone is left or right leaning when you meet them? How do you know that they actually are left-wing and not just saying they are? I can't think of a single person I know that I'd be able to catagorise like that so definitively. Most of us probably straddle the line and alternate depending on the context.

Mountainsandh

xckjoo wrote: »

What a strange statement. How do you tell if someone is left or right leaning when you meet them? How do you know that they actually are left-wing and not just saying they are? I can't think of a single person I know that I'd be able to catagorise like that so definitively. Most of us probably straddle the line and alternate depending on the context.

I think the comments illustrate pretty well how some people 's vision of the world can be distorted by ... What, exactly ? I think maybe it's adherence to a group, a sense of belonging to an ideology, a sort of group think I guess. It's worrying imo.

...and at odds with an ideological position that would in principle support differences.

Giraffe Box

xckjoo wrote: »

What a strange statement. How do you tell if someone is left or right leaning when you meet them? How do you know that they actually are left-wing and not just saying they are? I can't think of a single person I know that I'd be able to catagorise like that so definitively. Most of us probably straddle the line and alternate depending on the context.

Imo, most of those who dislike the left would like to think that they themselves 'straddle the line'.....wait till the dust settles on this JP phenomenon and we'll see how many of his followers self identify as left-leaning. My guess is very few indeed, though it might be difficult to tell when people (of the right) are at best circumspect, and at worst downright dishonest about their own political leanings, that includes the great man himself by the way.

Why do you think a left-leaning paper such as The Guardian refers to him as a 'Rightwing Professor'?
And why do think right-wingers, or should that be 'classical liberals', like Gavin McInnes and Tucker Carlson are fanboys?
"He that lieth down with dogs shall rise up with fleas''...watch this space.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/feb/07/how-dangerous-is-jordan-b-peterson-the-rightwing-professor-who-hit-a-hornets-nest

7aubzxk43m2sni

Giraffe Box wrote: »

Imo, most of those who dislike the left would like to think that they themselves 'straddle the line'.....wait till the dust settles on this JP phenomenon and we'll see how many of his followers self identify as left-leaning. My guess is very few indeed, though it might be difficult to tell when people (of the right) are at best circumspect, and at worst downright dishonest about their own political leanings, that includes the great man himself by the way.

Why do you think a left-leaning paper such as The Guardian refers to him as a 'Rightwing Professor'?
And why do think right-wingers, or should that be 'classical liberals', like Gavin McInnes and Tucker Carlson are fanboys?
"He that lieth down with dogs shall rise up with fleas''...watch this space.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/feb/07/how-dangerous-is-jordan-b-peterson-the-rightwing-professor-who-hit-a-hornets-nest

What are you trying to say?

Ulysses Gaze

Giraffe Box wrote: »

Imo, most of those who dislike the left would like to think that they themselves 'straddle the line'.....wait till the dust settles on this JP phenomenon and we'll see how many of his followers self identify as left-leaning. My guess is very few indeed, though it might be difficult to tell when people (of the right) are at best circumspect, and at worst downright dishonest about their own political leanings, that includes the great man himself by the way.

Why do you think a left-leaning paper such as The Guardian refers to him as a 'Rightwing Professor'?
And why do think right-wingers, or should that be 'classical liberals', like Gavin McInnes and Tucker Carlson are fanboys?
"He that lieth down with dogs shall rise up with fleas''...watch this space.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/feb/07/how-dangerous-is-jordan-b-peterson-the-rightwing-professor-who-hit-a-hornets-nest

Because the Guardian are now resorting to clickbait due to the fact that they are losing money hand over fist?

flexcon

Im interested in someones response to this.

If the book of a Right lecturer is a Best seller, Trump was voted in, Brexit happened, and now look at the "Right wing" rising in an apparent way - It seems that there are lots more conservatives out there than the media and friendships in life would suggest. Is it just tough for very left leaning individuals to accept this? I find in my daily conversations that I am just shut down now. It's not debating and learning, it's just arguing. This is all antidotal to my life, but, I am sometimes shocked at the Trump conversations. They seem to always go back, that most people voted for Hilary - not Trump. Even if the USA took that number and Hilary was now the president, that's still 49.8% of the USA voted for Trump. It's like those individuals choose to ignore this.

I 100% agree with the suggestion to the dangers of catogorising conservative and thoughtful debate into the same bracket as Nazism is just wrong and doesn't help the progression of society in anyway. This happens in my own weekly odd conversations where it is getting to the point that I feel personally attacked unwarranted if I dare to suggest thought provoking dialogue that is against the norm.

It's sorta Ironic. The Far left shuts down the centre right, as if they were all extremists.

Lastly my own recently formed juncture of this RIGHT vs LEFT debate is the Conservative right relate to JP since most of his lectures seem to be about doing good but not toeing to a line just because that's that. Basically, unsure People who just want to try and get it right in life and make up their own dam mind rather than follow the sheep.

Anyway - My post is all over the place forgive me.

xckjoo

Giraffe Box wrote: »

Imo, most of those who dislike the left would like to think that they themselves 'straddle the line'.....wait till the dust settles on this JP phenomenon and we'll see how many of his followers self identify as left-leaning. My guess is very few indeed, though it might be difficult to tell when people (of the right) are at best circumspect, and at worst downright dishonest about their own political leanings, that includes the great man himself by the way.

Why do you think a left-leaning paper such as The Guardian refers to him as a 'Rightwing Professor'?
And why do think right-wingers, or should that be 'classical liberals', like Gavin McInnes and Tucker Carlson are fanboys?
"He that lieth down with dogs shall rise up with fleas''...watch this space.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/feb/07/how-dangerous-is-jordan-b-peterson-the-rightwing-professor-who-hit-a-hornets-nest

IMO you need to stop trying to identify everything as either black or white. The world is a spectrum of greys. I like The Guardian, but there's no denying it has its own biases. So am I right-wing by your yardstick?

Giraffe Box

Giraffe Box wrote: »

Imo, most of those who dislike the left would like to think that they themselves 'straddle the line'.....wait till the dust settles on this JP phenomenon and we'll see how many of his followers self identify as left-leaning. My guess is very few indeed, though it might be difficult to tell when people (of the right) are at best circumspect, and at worst downright dishonest about their own political leanings, that includes the great man himself by the way.

Why do you think a left-leaning paper such as The Guardian refers to him as a 'Rightwing Professor'?
And why do think right-wingers, or should that be 'classical liberals', like Gavin McInnes and Tucker Carlson are fanboys?
"He that lieth down with dogs shall rise up with fleas''...watch this space.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/feb/07/how-dangerous-is-jordan-b-peterson-the-rightwing-professor-who-hit-a-hornets-nest

Why are you so quick to undermine the stated opinions and political outlooks of strangers whom you do not know, as opposed to simply engaging with the points at hand?

Is it really *that* hard for you to believe that some of us on the Left might actually agree with Jordan Peterson on some issues? As someone who is usually dismissed a wooly liberal leftie, or whatever other adjectives are now in vogue, I find it fascinating to see another genuine left-winger, such as yourself, so quick to play the man and not the ball as soon as you encounter an opinion that is not in accordance with your own.

Is this not exactly the kind of behaviour on the Left that Jordan Peterson warns against, and which many people would argue is damaging to a free and open discourse within the Left?

johnp001

flexcon wrote: »

Im interested in someones response to this.

If the book of a Right lecturer is a Best seller, Trump was voted in, Brexit happened, and now look at the "Right wing" rising in an apparent way - It seems that there are lots more conservatives out there than the media and friendships in life would suggest. Is it just tough for very left leaning individuals to accept this? I find in my daily conversations that I am just shut down now. It's not debating and learning, it's just arguing. This is all antidotal to my life, but, I am sometimes shocked at the Trump conversations. They seem to always go back, that most people voted for Hilary - not Trump. Even if the USA took that number and Hilary was now the president, that's still 49.8% of the USA voted for Trump. It's like those individuals choose to ignore this.

I 100% agree with the suggestion to the dangers of catogorising conservative and thoughtful debate into the same bracket as Nazism is just wrong and doesn't help the progression of society in anyway. This happens in my own weekly odd conversations where it is getting to the point that I feel personally attacked unwarranted if I dare to suggest thought provoking dialogue that is against the norm.

It's sorta Ironic. The Far left shuts down the centre right, as if they were all extremists.

Lastly my own recently formed juncture of this RIGHT vs LEFT debate is the Conservative right relate to JP since most of his lectures seem to be about doing good but not toeing to a line just because that's that. Basically, unsure People who just want to try and get it right in life and make up their own dam mind rather than follow the sheep.

Anyway - My post is all over the place forgive me.

Good point. If you refuse to engage with the arguments that oppose your own because you are part of the "moral majority" and through the mechanism of democracy believe that you don't have to worry about the "extremists" you are then left in a very tenuous position when you find you have become part of a moral minority and the mechanism of democracy is now working against your interests.

Giraffe Box

Mountainsandh wrote: »

I think the comments illustrate pretty well how some people 's vision of the world can be distorted by ... What, exactly ? I think maybe it's adherence to a group, a sense of belonging to an ideology, a sort of group think I guess. It's worrying imo.

...and at odds with an ideological position that would in principle support differences.

Thus spoke one of Jordan Peterson's army of individuals....irony or what?

Giraffe Box

Parker Fat Ladyfinger wrote: »

What are you trying to say?

That's very hurtful.:(

Giraffe Box

xckjoo wrote: »

IMO you need to stop trying to identify everything as either black or white. The world is a spectrum of greys. I like The Guardian, but there's no denying it has its own biases. So am I right-wing by your yardstick?

Why do you need my assessment.
Look into your heart and be honest with yourself as to where you stand.
And if you are right-wing then admit it, it's still not a crime.
If you're not, then grand.

Giraffe Box

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Why are you so quick to undermine the stated opinions and political outlooks of strangers whom you do not know, as opposed to simply engaging with the points at hand?

Is it really *that* hard for you to believe that some of us on the Left might actually agree with Jordan Peterson on some issues? As someone who is usually dismissed a wooly liberal leftie, or whatever other adjectives are now in vogue, I find it fascinating to see another genuine left-winger, such as yourself, so quick to play the man and not the ball as soon as you encounter an opinion that is not in accordance with your own.

Is this not exactly the kind of behaviour on the Left that Jordan Peterson warns against, and which many people would argue is damaging to a free and open discourse within the Left?

Eh no. Peterson wants a 'free and open discourse' with the Left as long as he can define what constitutes the Left and, like yourself in the above post, can set the parameters of the discourse to best suit himself and his opinion.

Giraffe Box

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Because the Guardian are now resorting to clickbait due to the fact that they are losing money hand over fist?

'Rightwing Professor', is that really 'clickbait'?

'Sex Dwarf Lures 100 Disco Dollies to a Life of Vice'...that's clickbait!

Giraffe Box

Giraffe Box wrote: »

Eh no. Peterson wants a 'free and open discourse' with the Left as long as he can define what constitutes the Left and, like yourself in the above post, can set the parameters of the discourse to best suit himself and his opinion.

No idea what you're on about here, sorry. What parameters have I put down, specifically? I'm actually saying that we should be placing as few parameters as possible on the free exchange of opinions and ideas.

That's a pretty crucial part of what most people believe constitutes progressive dialogue.

Giraffe Box

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

No idea what you're on about here, sorry. What parameters have I put down, specifically? I'm actually saying that we should be placing as few parameters as possible on the free exchange of opinions and ideas.

That's a pretty crucial part of what most people believe constitutes progressive dialogue.

I'm talking about you being very quick to chide me for being, quote: ''so quick to undermine the stated opinions and political outlooks of strangers whom you do not know''
Yet you do the same thing to me (whom you do not know) without compunction.
Did you tut-tut the poster who accused me - a stanger to him - of 'bitterness' in my posts? That'll be a no too.
As I said your parameters, in that I can't criticise a stranger, but you of course can.

Mountainsandh

Giraffe Box wrote: »

Thus spoke one of Jordan Peterson's army of individuals....irony or what?

Again, you are just displaying this distorted vision of the world.

You seem to have a very personal dislike for the man, and it seems to really irk you that some people listen to his content and think about the issues he raises.

It seems like you have built this little bubble of "JP and his followers" out of your own imagination, based on a very reticent experience of a minimum of content from him.

If you think he's trying to rally an army of individuals, then you really have not sussed the guy at all.

It seems you are intent on just passing judgment about people rather than engage in discussion, and as you can see from your earlier post on the thread, that shuts down dialogue.

Giraffe Box

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Again, you are just displaying this distorted vision of the world.

You seem to have a very personal dislike for the man, and it seems to really irk you that some people listen to his content and think about the issues he raises.

Again, you are just displaying this distorted vision of the world.

If you think he's trying to rally an army of individuals, then you really have not sussed the guy at all.

It seems you are intent on just passing judgment about people rather than engage in discussion, and as you can see from your earlier post on the thread, that shuts down dialogue.

''You seem to have a very personal dislike for the man''

I don't actually, but would it be terribly wrong if I did?

---

''Again, you are just displaying this distorted vision of the world.''

Distorted vision ...of the world no less, that's a bit melodramatic.
I'm not sure that I even have a 'vision of the world' at all, frankly it sounds
rather grand, or even a bit dangerous.
Show me in my posts where I've displayed 'this vision thing' please.

---

''It seems you are intent on just passing judgment about people''

Given that you lined up three of my posts, had a pop, and accused me
of bitterness.
It seems the most succinct answer to that one would be 'SNAP'!

---

But these posts are tit for tat, pointless and derailing the thread. You may freely decide what my political leanings are, I don't really care that you do, and let's just let people chat about JP and the interview.

Who posted the above only two days ago I wonder?
What happened, perhaps you saw a post that was critical of me and were
sufficiently emboldened to have another pop.

That's my 'vision' of your contribution..

Mountainsandh

Giraffe Box wrote: »

''You seem to have a very personal dislike for the man''

I don't actually, but would it be terribly wrong if I did?

---

''Again, you are just displaying this distorted vision of the world.''

Distorted vision ...of the world no less, that's a bit melodramatic.
I'm not sure that I even have a 'vision of the world' at all, frankly it sounds
rather grand, or even a bit dangerous.
Show me in my posts where I've displayed 'this vision thing' please.

---

''It seems you are intent on just passing judgment about people''

Given that you lined up three of my posts, had a pop, and accused me
of bitterness.
It seems the most succinct answer to that one would be 'SNAP'!

---

But these posts are tit for tat, pointless and derailing the thread. You may freely decide what my political leanings are, I don't really care that you do, and let's just let people chat about JP and the interview.

Who posted the above only two days ago I wonder?
What happened, perhaps you saw a post that was critical of me and were
sufficiently emboldened to have another pop.

That's my 'vision' of your contribution..

Ok. I think other posters understood my post above, so yeah, the kind of dialogue above is not what I'm looking for, you're right on that one.

7aubzxk43m2sni

Giraffe Box wrote: »

But these posts are tit for tat, pointless and derailing the thread. You may freely decide what my political leanings are, I don't really care that you do, and let's just let people chat about JP and the interview.

Who posted the above only two days ago I wonder?
What happened, perhaps you saw a post that was critical of me and were
sufficiently emboldened to have another pop.

That's my 'vision' of your contribution..

You do nothing but sneer at whatever Peterson says, denounce him because he's "right wing", and denounce anyone who likes anything he says because they must be right wing too, and since they're nor part of your group they must be wrong.

I haven't seen you address a single actual point, and I'm beginning to think you're a troll.

xckjoo

Giraffe Box wrote: »

Why do you need my assessment.
Look into your heart and be honest with yourself as to where you stand.
And if you are right-wing then admit it, it's still not a crime.
If you're not, then grand.

lol. What part of my post did you interpret as anybody "needing your assessment"? I wanted to get a sense of how you're thinking about things, but from your replies I don't think you've fully formed these thoughts and are just reactionary.