Jordan Peterson interview on C4

El_Duderino 09

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Meanwhile, the SWM who can sort out his own crap loves this message, since it means he doesn't need to concern himself with all the institutional discrimination against people who are not just like him until they sort out their own crap first.

That’s a really important part of the Peterson sermon. Don’t attempt to change the world/society/anything except yourself. Young people know nothing ‘literally nothing’.

“Get your own house in PERFECT order before you criticise the world” - Peterson, adnausium.

Mountainsandh

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That’s a really important part of the Peterson sermon. Don’t attempt to change the world/society/anything except yourself. Young people know nothing ‘literally nothing’.

“Get your own house in PERFECT order before you criticise the world” - Peterson, adnausium.

Not really, it's get your house in order before you can change the world, usually he uses the phrase "to be a force for good"in the world.

Looking at it cynically and doubting the person's good faith is the easy, conspiratorial way out of this conundrum for people who feel threatened by his attempts to make people think.

You can choose to look at the world that way, or maybe just to present the world that way, or you can actually try and listen, and learn.

The man is a lecturer. His purpose is to make people think.

Evidently he's failing with some.

Zubeneschamali

Mountainsandh wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The man is a lecturer. His purpose is to make people think.

He used to be a lecturer, but this new celebrity self-help for dudes who don't need help and want to believe no-one else does either gig pays much better.

Mountainsandh

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Mountainsandh wrote: »

He used to be a lecturer, but this new celebrity self-help for dudes who don't need help and want to believe no-one else does either gig pays much better.

Well yeah. So ? I don't understand what the big deal is, about him making money. Would you like him to lecture for free, or live like a recluse ?
He's still lecturing, not full on myths, religion and psychology anymore, but actually, using all of that still. Making great money, and not so shackled by uni anymore.
How is that a problem ? He's not stealing money from people, he's not fooling them into buying something. He's selling a book, and explaining the contents of the book to lots of people who are happy to pay a ticket to hear him.

The book is only part of what he's at by the way. The talks with Russel Brand are not about the book at all. He had debates with Sam Harris, an example of a theme was "what is the nature of truth?". There are many talks in universities, and since it appears that it's the unis who decide what the theme will be, it's not necessarily his book that he discusses.

Look, it's fine to be cynical, I'm cynical on some things too,; and the guy cannot be everyone's cup of tea but I would highly recommend listening to other talks before anyone making their minds up, the book stuff is just the book stuff, breadwinner sort of thing.

Zubeneschamali

Mountainsandh wrote: »

he's not fooling them into buying something.

Of course he is. The 3 arena full of the poor saps.

Mountainsandh

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Of course he is. The 3 arena full of the poor saps.

Fooling them into what ? Please explain.

Zubeneschamali

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Fooling them into what ?

Paying him for inane advice their mother gives them free. Pick up your room. Stand up straight. Stop your moaning.

But by sprinkling some own the libs magic on it and using big words, he gets them to pay to hear advice they have no notion of following simply because it makes them feel superior.

He is putting his psychology expertise to good use.

On the suckers who pay him.

Professor Moriarty

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Paying him for inane advice their mother gives them free. Pick up your room. Stand up straight. Stop your moaning.

But by sprinkling some own the libs magic on it and using big words, he gets them to pay to hear advice they have no notion of following simply because it makes them feel superior.

He is putting his psychology expertise to good use.

On the suckers who pay him.

You're having a very good day.

alaimacerc

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

“Get your own house in PERFECT order before you criticise the world” - Peterson, adnausium.

There's a whole lot of Lobsterians out there with perfectly ordered houses, then.

By their own assessment, at least.

alaimacerc

Parker Fat Ladyfinger wrote: »

Can you define concretely any institutional discrimination you're referring to?

This'll be the passage of the play where you expect everyone else to do Feminism and Racism 101 for you, while you fold your arms and mutter how you're not buying any of it.

backspin.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Not banned, just not his intended audience.

His message is all about individuals taking control of their own lives and forging their own path. This is a message aimed at your single white male, playing life at the easiest setting. He is absolutely able to take control of his own stuff, stand up straight, clean his own room and find himself on top of the world.

Because he was born on top of the world, and only his own screw-ups put him anywhere else.

Black women, facing all sorts of personal and institutional discrimination, are not so receptive to the message that if they just sort out their own crap they'll succeed.

Life at the easiest these days is if you are born a middle class white western woman. Peterson is not afraid to highlight this along with so much of the other modern feminist victimhood nonsense. He is also not afraid to highlight the excesses and dangers of identity politics and the attacks on so called white privilege. Its these things that have attracted people to Peterson and not the clean your room stuff. He had a large following on youtube long before his 12 rules for life book.

Btw your post above highlights fairly well why he has a good following of white men. This idea that men have it made and don't have any real problems, they should just shut the hell up because a black woman has it harder.

Zubeneschamali

backspin. wrote: »

Btw your post above highlights fairly well why he has a good following of white men

Since my entire point was to explain how he has a good following of white men, this is not By The Way. You make Peterson sad.

backspin.

I don't have his book and don't intent to get it. I'm not really interested in the self help angle. I'm just glad he has an audience that gets to listen to him deconstruct modern feminism, political correctness and identity politics. There aren't many journalists or public figures brave enough to broach the subject so its down to a few people like Peterson to put into words what many men already know in their marrow.

Anyone who thinks his popularity is down to clean your room and stand up straight stuff is really missing the point.

Mountainsandh

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Paying him for inane advice their mother gives them free. Pick up your room. Stand up straight. Stop your moaning.

But by sprinkling some own the libs magic on it and using big words, he gets them to pay to hear advice they have no notion of following simply because it makes them feel superior.

He is putting his psychology expertise to good use.

On the suckers who pay him.

You can look at it this way, or simply you can acknowledge that people may be happy and willing to pay to hear things that they find valuable. Never mind that your granny or your mother told you that, how is that relevant ?

Do you go around admonishing people for paying for traditional cuisine recipe books ? Do you scoff at people in Eason's who are browsing the self help aisle ?

Just thinking out loud here, and I think just as I typed that I thought well yeah, alright, we all do a bitta that, a bit of wtf wondering about others' choices.
That's not what I've a problem with actually.
What I think is nonsensical is that you there and then decide that these people are being "fooled" into something. They're simply not : they like to hear/read what he says, they are happy to pay for it.

I don't get "fooled" into buying a Taylor Swift album. I don't get "fooled" into buying a "Grandma's best sponges" recipe book. They don't get "fooled" into buying a ticket to a talk, or a book.

There is simply no manipulation or evil intent there. The guy wrote a book, people like it, people buy it. He does talks, people are interested, they buy a ticket. Where's the catch ? Simply that you think he's talking BS. Ok, it's your prerogative, isn't it great that you are not being tricked into paying for these.

alaimacerc

backspin. wrote: »

There aren't many journalists or public figures brave enough to broach the subject so its down to a few people like Peterson to put into words what many men already know in their marrow.

Or more realistically: those people are ten-a-penny. The tabloids, the airwaves and a motley selection of political parties are stuffed full of them. JP has in effect carved out a niche by throwing rather more words at the problem, so that he can appeal to much the same male "marrow" as your run of the mill reactionaries, but keep it vaguely deniable. As we can see in this very thread, with his various apologists on the one hand going with the "shut up, SJWs!" tacks, and on the other, denying him being of the political right at all.

Which isn't to write off the possible value of his clinical psychology, self-help, and the alleged nuance of some of his less headline-grabbing and hyperbolic output. But those seem rather limited for people with no interest in them. Who're happy just to cheer him on the basis of what they evidently perceive as an "anti-identity politics" brand of identity politics.

Junkyard Tom

The guys at Zero Books who are actual Marxists, and critical theorists, challenged JP to a debate and his people said they'd get back to them. In the months since JP was on Joe Roganjosh saying [paraphrasing] 'the leftists won't debate me' like they're afraid of his intellect.

He's a pound-shop intellectual.

backspin.

backspin. wrote: »

Life at the easiest these days is if you are born a middle class white western woman.

Tell us again about the travails of life as a middle-class white man in a rich country.

I love that tune.

Mountainsandh

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The guys at Zero Books who are actual Marxists, and critical theorists, challenged JP to a debate and his people said they'd get back to them. In the months since JP was on Joe Roganjosh saying [paraphrasing] 'the leftists won't debate me' like they're afraid of his intellect.

He's a pound-shop intellectual.

Meh, these are extrapolations from dealings with a management team whose workload must have gone exponential from the time the book was released, I wouldn't really go down the road of "he refuses to debate with them" on something like that.
I would guess they prioritize bigger venues and better known profiles, no harm in resending those emails once things have calmed down somewhat.

RandomName2

alaimacerc wrote: »

This'll be the passage of the play where you expect everyone else to do Feminism and Racism 101 for you, while you fold your arms and mutter how you're not buying any of it.

This is an interesting and clever variant on the idea that evidence isn't required.

Wait, are you currently folding your arms and muttering?

This could get very meta-analytical.

alaimacerc wrote: »

"anti-identity politics" brand of identity politics.

This really is meta. Oh I bet you don't say anything of substance in the last few pages. Sigh.. letmecheck

..

..

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Okay, so going back far enough you actually talk about some of the things that Pererson actually said, instead of railing against white men in general.

alaimacerc wrote: »

"Clearly", eh? Why do you think I put in quotes? Enforced means "not enforced at all" when that suits him, and "actually enforced" when that does. It's either deliberate bait-and-switch on his part, or -- gasp! -- lamentably imprecise use of language.

I'm getting deja vu.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107516092&postcount=9073

You lost this argument man. Let it go. Wait, I hope you don't think that me calling you man was a microaggression.

El_Duderino 09

alaimacerc wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

“Get your own house in PERFECT order before you criticise the world” - Peterson, adnausium.

There's a whole lot of Lobsterians out there with perfectly ordered houses, then.

By their own assessment, at least.

Presumably so. Can I take it for granted that Peterson and his followers have their houses in PERFECT order before he could criticise the left and the young people? Or is he immune from this own advice, I wonder?

El_Duderino 09

backspin. wrote: »

He is also not afraid to highlight the excesses and dangers of identity politics and the attacks on so called white privilege. Its these things that have attracted people to Peterson and not the clean your room stuff. He had a large following on youtube long before his 12 rules for life book.

It's amusing to see some of his followers say the interesting part of Peterson's sermon is the self help part, and other followers say the interesting thing is the anti left anti young people part. He can't lose with some people as long as he keeps up the Tony Robbins part and the Fox News part. As I've said a dozen times, it's entertainment for the conservative man dressed up as self help - the left and the young should heed Peterson's advise because they're doing g it all wrong

El_Duderino 09

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

He's a pound-shop intellectual.

In the 99p shop, the pound shop intellectual is king.

Mountainsandh

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It's amusing to see some of his followers say the interesting part of Peterson's sermon is the self help part, and other followers say the interesting thing is the anti left anti young people part. He can't lose with some people as long as he keeps up the Tony Robbins part and the Fox News part. As I've said a dozen times, it's entertainment for the conservative man dressed up as self help - the left and the young should heed Peterson's advise because they're doing g it all wrong

You evidently haven't listened to a lot of him, since really the bulk of his videos online are about stories, myths, and their relation to religion, and clinical psychology of personality. (I'm not sneering here, just saying)

If you do wish to become acquainted with this, ignore the flamboyant youtube profiteers links to short videos, click on his channel, and scroll down. Lots to choose from. Depending on what you're into, I find the talks on personality more interesting than the myths/religion stuff myself, but I have somewhat developed an interest in that too now that I sort of understand the basic concepts.

Really anything under 10 minutes is not representative. The Q&A are alright but do tend to be scattered. The lectures and interviews on his specialist topics are the best.

Please do listen, if you have an open mind.


https://www.youtube.com/user/JordanPetersonVideos

Mountainsandh

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Presumably so. Can I take it for granted that Peterson and his followers have their houses in PERFECT order before he could criticise the left and the young people? Or is he immune from this own advice, I wonder?

The guy looks healthier and handsomer at whatever age he is now than he looked in his 40s. He's on an all meat diet and reckons it has cleared his depression and a number of other ailments he suffered from. He has finished his first book, and written another one, with another one in the pipeline if I understand right. He's fit and travelling the world, and making a lot of money. His family are well.

I think he pretty much has that house in order thing sussed out, but if he hasn't he'll be the first to admit it.

El_Duderino 09

Mountainsandh wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Presumably so. Can I take it for granted that Peterson and his followers have their houses in PERFECT order before he could criticise the left and the young people? Or is he immune from this own advice, I wonder?

The guy looks healthier and handsomer at whatever age he is now than he looked in his 40s. He's on an all meat diet and reckons it has cleared his depression and a number of other ailments he suffered from. He has finished his first book, and written another one, with another one in the pipeline if I understand right. He's fit and travelling the world, and making a lot of money. His family are well.

I think he pretty much has that house in order thing sussed out, but if he hasn't he'll be the first to admit it.

That sounds like a true zealot speaking.

Doesn’t the term ‘get your own house in PERFECT order before you criticise the world’ suggest it’s a constant work in progress? Perfection is surely something which can never be achieved so you can never actually criticise the world -even though he spends a lot of his sermons criticising the left and the young people.

If his followers actually took him seriously, they wouldn’t be telling other people to heed Peterson because they would be so busy getting their own house in PERFECT order.

Mountainsandh

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That sounds like a true zealot speaking.

Doesn’t the term ‘get your own house in PERFECT order before you criticise the world’ suggest it’s a constant work in progress? Perfection is surely something which can never be achieved so you can never actually criticise the world -even though he spends a lot of his sermons criticising the left and the young people.

If his followers actually took him seriously, they wouldn’t be telling other people to heed Peterson because they would be so busy getting their own house in PERFECT order.

Ok whatever, about the house in order thing, I said before I think the 12 rules are the breadwinner, and I don't think they are as important as the other things he talks about.

Define me as zealot if you like, all this effort spent in trying to personalize things when you could maybe just go on his channel, have a look at other stuff than the political stuff, and get a fairer picture of the guy behind the persona while learning something.
Just forget about all the political stuff for a minute, and go see if there's something on there you might like or be interested in. I did so at first just to get a broader picture and suss out the guy, and now I just listen to the lectures because they're interesting (I play Candy Crush and other thoughtless games on Facebook at the same time ).

I don't mean this in an incendiary way, and neither do I mean it in a "I've won the battle nah nah nah nah" way, but I really do not care much how people on here want to define me, and I'm not interested in explaining whether I'd jump off a cliff if he said to do so.


edit : tonight I'm on "2016 Personality Lecture 08: Existentialism: Nietzsche, Dostoevsky and Social Hierarchy". There's bits about babies becoming social beings, with some passing reference to breast feeding, and now he's gone on to Nietzsche, that's a bit harder to follow but I just get what I get out of that and don't feel under pressure to understand or remember everything. Don't listen to that one if you listen to anything actually, he goes on to the lobsters, you'd only be getting your blood pressure up.

Raging_Ninja

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That sounds like a true zealot speaking.

Doesn’t the term ‘get your own house in PERFECT order before you criticise the world’ suggest it’s a constant work in progress? Perfection is surely something which can never be achieved so you can never actually criticise the world -even though he spends a lot of his sermons criticising the left and the young people.

If his followers actually took him seriously, they wouldn’t be telling other people to heed Peterson because they would be so busy getting their own house in PERFECT order.

I think you're placing too much importance on a single word and basing your opinions of the guy on that single word.

El_Duderino 09

Mountainsandh wrote: »

edit : tonight I'm on "2016 Personality Lecture 08: Existentialism: Nietzsche, Dostoevsky and Social Hierarchy". There's bits about babies becoming social beings, with some passing reference to breast feeding, and now he's gone on to Nietzsche, that's a bit harder to follow but I just get what I get out of that and don't feel under pressure to understand or remember everything. Don't listen to that one if you listen to anything actually, he goes on to the lobsters, you'd only be getting your blood pressure up.

I've never mentioned a problem with the lobster stuff.

I challenge Peterson's followers to claim they understand a tenth of the tricky stuff. Metaphysical substrates, the god nonsense, and especially the Nietzsche stuff. If you're claiming to understand it, you're fooling yourself. It's like a postmodern random word generator.

Peterson's followers never challenge the tricky stuff because they don't understand it and there's no way they could discuss it let alone argue about it. They swallow that stuff whole and presume Peterson is fierce clever alltogether. He throws in some easily digestible stuff like young people know nothing and the left is doing it all wrong and BINGO! He's a hit with people who are conservative and don't actually have a clue what he's talking about.

El_Duderino 09

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That sounds like a true zealot speaking.

Doesn’t the term ‘get your own house in PERFECT order before you criticise the world’ suggest it’s a constant work in progress? Perfection is surely something which can never be achieved so you can never actually criticise the world -even though he spends a lot of his sermons criticising the left and the young people.

If his followers actually took him seriously, they wouldn’t be telling other people to heed Peterson because they would be so busy getting their own house in PERFECT order.

I think you're placing too much importance on a single word and basing your opinions of the guy on that single word.

'Be precise in your speech' is one of his commandments.
If his followers took him seriously it would be a problem. But they don't so it's not too bad. They just go on about how other people should watch his lectures which is harmless enough.

backspin.

El_Duderino what is dangerous about Jordan Peterson? What has you exercised enough to try so hard to rubbish him?

If he is just a pound shop intellectual spouting nonsense to the plebs why are you even bothered enough to talk about it.