Jordan Peterson interview on C4

CruelCoin · 04-09-2018 1:02pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

That's the racism and misogyny vote.

That's simple to the point of stupidity.

It's vastly moreso a disenfranchisement vote. An entire generation of angry young men who feel like the American dream is not working out as promised, and that all the hopey changey clap-trap of the past bore no fruit, and that now a genuine dark-horse was needed.
Whether Trump was a good and decent manifestation of that is up for debate, but they certainly didn't want more of the same via Hillary.

**** as Trump was, how bad did Hillary and her message need to be to lose to that?

CruelCoin · 04-09-2018 1:06pm

xckjoo wrote: »

He might not say "I'm against right wing extremism" in every interview, but that doesn't mean he isn't.

He's repeatedly made that point. But absolutely, he doesn't need to repeat it at every oportunity. It would be absurd to have to preface every talk, every book, ever discussion with a lengthy disclaimer.

xckjoo · 04-09-2018 1:09pm

Giraffe Box wrote: »

If he's an admirer of Solzhenitsyn, and named one of his children after Gorbachev - as stated in the piece below this post - then he has obviously been 'studying' left-wing extremism for some time.

Also, if 'we all tend to drift in that direction as we age' then perhaps JP needn't worry too much about young folk and their attraction to the dreaded 'collectivism'. They'll grow out of it, no need to fret.

I'll take a wild guess and say that the reason the poster 'dislikes' Petersen is because he disagrees with most of his utterances....unless of course he knows him personally....come in El Dude!

What would you say about people who gave Petersen a standing ovation before he even opened his mouth (as happened at the 3Arena recently)......minds already made up do you think?....or perhaps they just like him!

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/feb/07/how-dangerous-is-jordan-b-peterson-the-rightwing-professor-who-hit-a-hornets-nest

I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. Are you asking if I think the people that spent money to see the guy in the 3Arean might already like him and be biased towards agreeing with whatever he said? Yup. I'm sure they were. They probably wouldn't have bought tickets if they didn't like him and agree with what he says.

Maybe I'm misreading you but you seem to be equating personal feelings towards a person with the "correctness" of your interpretation of their words. Unfortunately they aren't related. Just because I like/dislike you, doesn't make what you say any more/less correct. I'll admit that I like the guy and therefore am more likely to find agreeable things in what he says, but El Duderino seems to have a strong dislike for the guy and is liable to find fault and attribute blame where others wouldn't. That's basically my point.

Edit: Forgot to mention that there's a general belief that people become more conservative as they age. I thought that was widely known but perhaps not. I'm not sure if that has been 100% confirmed, but there's an old saying along the lines of "If You Are Not a Liberal at 25, You Have No Heart. If You Are Not a Conservative at 35 You Have No Brain"

El_Duderino 09 · 04-09-2018 1:19pm

CruelCoin wrote: »

xckjoo wrote: »

He might not say "I'm against right wing extremism" in every interview, but that doesn't mean he isn't.

He's repeatedly made that point. But absolutely, he doesn't need to repeat it at every oportunity. It would be absurd to have to preface every talk, every book, ever discussion with a lengthy disclaimer.

It’s basically exactly what he does. He gives an interview about how bad the young and the left are, and then issues a line or 2 as a disclaimer that he doesn’t like the right wing such as racial supremacists. Then back to rubbishing the left and he young for the rest of the interview.

CruelCoin · 04-09-2018 1:24pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It’s basically exactly what he does. He gives an interview about how bad the young and the left are, and then issues a line or 2 as a disclaimer that he doesn’t like the right wing such as racial supremacists. Then back to rubbishing the left and he young for the rest of the interview.

I get the impression you've seen an excert from one interview and left it at that.

I'm watching a 2 hour lecture here, and he's mentioned left/right young/old once. Once. I'm 80 minutes in.
The same repeats in other lectures he's given. What you're saying he says, has not been said, and you're either cherry picking or you're lying.

xckjoo · 04-09-2018 1:31pm

CruelCoin wrote: »

I get the impression you've seen an excert from one interview and left it at that.

I'm watching a 2 hour lecture here, and he's mentioned left/right young/old once. Once. I'm 80 minutes in.
The same repeats in other lectures he's given. What you're saying he says, has not been said, and you're either cherry picking or you're lying.

Don't forget his lectures will have a different tone to his interviews. The interviews will be lead (somewhat) by the interviewer and his opinions on youth and the left are what gets the click throughs these days.

Giraffe Box · 04-09-2018 1:33pm

xckjoo wrote: »

I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. Are you asking if I think the people that spent money to see the guy in the 3Arean might already like him and be biased towards agreeing with whatever he said? Yup. I'm sure they were. They probably wouldn't have bought tickets if they didn't like him and agree with what he says.

Maybe I'm misreading you but you seem to be equating personal feelings towards a person with the "correctness" of your interpretation of their words. Unfortunately they aren't related. Just because I like/dislike you, doesn't make what you say any more/less correct. I'll admit that I like the guy and therefore am more likely to find agreeable things in what he says, but El Duderino seems to have a strong dislike for the guy and is liable to find fault and attribute blame where others wouldn't. That's basically my point.

But it was you who brought your own personal interpretation of another poster's - El_Duderino 09 - reasons for disagreeing with JP into the debate, and I think you were incorrect to so do.

I could just as easily say that you yourself only agree with Petersen because you like him, but that would be equally as silly.

El_Duderino 09 · 04-09-2018 1:40pm

xckjoo wrote: »

I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. Are you asking if I think the people that spent money to see the guy in the 3Arean might already like him and be biased towards agreeing with whatever he said? Yup. I'm sure they were. They probably wouldn't have bought tickets if they didn't like him and agree with what he says.

Maybe I'm misreading you but you seem to be equating personal feelings towards a person with the "correctness" of your interpretation of their words. Unfortunately they aren't related. Just because I like/dislike you, doesn't make what you say any more/less correct. I'll admit that I like the guy and therefore am more likely to find agreeable things in what he says, but El Duderino seems to have a strong dislike for the guy and is liable to find fault and attribute blame where others wouldn't. That's basically my point.

I don’t doubt that he’s right about done things. Just like the way Fox News is right about sone things.

What he said is a subset of what might be true AND is against the left and the young.

Has he ever had a lecture series that focuses on the problems of the right? Maybe he just can’t think of any problems with the right up to racial supremacy. Maybe he thinks the problems with identity politics on the right are insignificant compared to left wing identity politics.

Or maybe he could talk about those problems with the old and the right but that’s not what his audience wants to hear.

He doesn’t explicitly say there are no problems on the right. He only wants to talk about the problems on the left as if they were the only significant issues.

When he’s pressed he’ll say ‘of course there are problems on the right, like racial supremacy’

When people are really impressed with Peterson I think it’s about as clever as someone who’s really impressed by Bill O Reilly.

Peterson designs and creates content you already agree with and hey-presto, you think he’s very clever for creating such great content.

El_Duderino 09 · 04-09-2018 1:47pm

CruelCoin wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It’s basically exactly what he does. He gives an interview about how bad the young and the left are, and then issues a line or 2 as a disclaimer that he doesn’t like the right wing such as racial supremacists. Then back to rubbishing the left and he young for the rest of the interview.

I get the impression you've seen an excert from one interview and left it at that.

I'm watching a 2 hour lecture here, and he's mentioned left/right young/old once. Once. I'm 80 minutes in.
The same repeats in other lectures he's given. What you're saying he says, has not been said, and you're either cherry picking or you're lying.

The most recent interview I listened to is the BBC radio 4 interview on morality from yesterday morning. I think
I’m still the only person here who listened to it.
It’s all about the young songs the left.

On bbc4 which has an older and more middle class audience... I wonder why he used that interview gave a dig at young people and the left...?

His flock are pretty sure he doesn’t tailor his content to sell to the audience so that can’t be the reason, right?

7aubzxk43m2sni · 04-09-2018 1:48pm

I must have missed his lecture series on the problems of the left?

Comparing Jordan Peterson to Bill O Reilly shows where you're at. There's really no comparison.

7aubzxk43m2sni · 04-09-2018 1:49pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The most recent interview I listened to is the BBC radio 4 interview on morality from yesterday morning. I think
I’m still the only person here who listened to it.
It’s all about the young songs the left.

On bbc4 which has an older and more middle class audience... I wonder why he used that interview gave a dig at young people and the left...?

His flock are pretty sure he doesn’t tailor his content to sell to the audience so that can’t be the reason, right?

Because he was invited to an interview on the show? Because he's consistent in his belief that the left are leading society to a dangerous place?

I'll listen to the interview in full later and give you a better answer on it

xckjoo · 04-09-2018 1:52pm

Giraffe Box wrote: »

But it was you who brought your own personal interpretation of another poster's - El_Duderino 09 - reasons for disagreeing with JP into the debate, and I think you were incorrect to so do.

I could just as easily say that you yourself only agree with Petersen because you like him, but that would be equally as silly.

When I said that I think his dislike of the guy taints all his opinions of what he says? I clearly say that it's my personal interpretation of things so not sure why it would be "incorrect to do so". Maybe you disagree but that's a different thing.

Was your point that he dislikes Peterson because of what he says and not the other way around? Maybe. But the tone of his posts have not changed since early in the thread so I don't see much evolution in opinion going on. Maybe he had watched and read enough by then to have formed such strong opinions but that rarely seems to be the case these days.

You'd be right to question if I only agree with Peterson because I like the guy. You should always question that (from either side of the coin). People opinions are fickle and very open to bias so it would be unwise to just trust the opinions of a random internet stranger. I am still open to the idea that he could be a complete lunatic, but so far I haven't seen anything to make me come down on that side.

P.S I don't "agree with Peterson". I agree with some of what he says (as far as I've seen/heard to date). I also don't agree with left or right extremism in case that needs to be explicitly stated

El_Duderino 09 · 04-09-2018 1:56pm

Parker Fat Ladyfinger wrote: »

Because he was invited to an interview on the show? Because he's consistent in his belief that the left are leading society to a dangerous place?

I'll listen to the interview in full later and give you a better answer on it

Just the left as leading somewhere dangerous? Not the right?

The right is only worth a disclaimer line in every interview but the dangers of the left are worth the entire rest of the interview?

I think you’re being had.

El_Duderino 09 · 04-09-2018 2:03pm

Parker Fat Ladyfinger wrote: »

I must have missed his lecture series on the problems of the left?

Comparing Jordan Peterson to Bill O Reilly shows where you're at. There's really no comparison.

They both only push the subset of things that could be true AND are negative about the left.

If something might be true and is negative about the right, it only gets a quick mention, then back to the primary topic of rubbishing the left.

Listen to the interview and see what you think. The entire interview’s subtext is ‘the left and young people are doing it wrong’

CruelCoin · 04-09-2018 2:07pm

xckjoo wrote: »

I also don't agree with left or right extremism in case that needs to be explicitly stated

"phew" you nearly weren't credible there!

CruelCoin · 04-09-2018 2:10pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Just the left as leading somewhere dangerous? Not the right?

The right is only worth a disclaimer line in every interview but the dangers of the left are worth the entire rest of the interview?

I think you’re being had.

He's not putting himself forward as a "dude with all the answers to all of societies woes".

He mostly speaks about freedom of speech and expression, which are under threat mostly from the left who feel as though their right not to be upset trumps everyones elses right to communicate.

It's not entirely surprising when a lecture/interview on the topic of free speech targets the side of the political spectrum that's attacking it the most.

Provided what he says is valid, then he's under no obligation to be neutral is the content he puts out.

Giraffe Box · 04-09-2018 2:14pm

xckjoo wrote: »

When I said that I think his dislike of the guy taints all his opinions of what he says? I clearly say that it's my personal interpretation of things so not sure why it would be "incorrect to do so". Maybe you disagree but that's a different thing.

Was your point that he dislikes Peterson because of what he says and not the other way around? Maybe. But the tone of his posts have not changed since early in the thread so I don't see much evolution in opinion going on. Maybe he had watched and read enough by then to have formed such strong opinions but that rarely seems to be the case these days.

You'd be right to question if I only agree with Peterson because I like the guy. You should always question that (from either side of the coin). People opinions are fickle and very open to bias so it would be unwise to just trust the opinions of a random internet stranger. I am still open to the idea that he could be a complete lunatic, but so far I haven't seen anything to make me come down on that side.

P.S I don't "agree with Peterson". I agree with some of what he says (as far as I've seen/heard to date). I also don't agree with left or right extremism in case that needs to be explicitly stated

Good post. You seem like a reasonable person who's unashamedly unsure of Petersen, and definitely not a reverential acolyte.
Speaking of which, you might want have a listen to this interview which is very interesting, it includes a surprisingly candid remark from JP, which, in my opinion, is dictionary definition 'bite the hand that feeds you': ''18 year old students don't know anything, they seriously don't know anything''.
12.29 approx.
Enjoy.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/play/b0b3fk63

El_Duderino 09 · 04-09-2018 2:33pm

CruelCoin wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Just the left as leading somewhere dangerous? Not the right?

The right is only worth a disclaimer line in every interview but the dangers of the left are worth the entire rest of the interview?

I think you’re being had.

He's not putting himself forward as a "dude with all the answers to all of societies woes".

He mostly speaks about freedom of speech and expression, which are under threat mostly from the left who feel as though their right not to be upset trumps everyones elses right to communicate.

It's not entirely surprising when a lecture/interview on the topic of free speech targets the side of the political spectrum that's attacking it the most.

Provided what he says is valid, then he's under no obligation to be neutral is the content he puts out.

The topic of the radio 4 interview was morality. But don’t worry, the conclusion is exactly the same as always. It’s the lefts fault no matter what topic he’s asked about.

xckjoo · 04-09-2018 3:16pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The topic of the radio 4 interview was morality. But don’t worry, the conclusion is exactly the same as always. It’s the lefts fault no matter what topic he’s asked about.

I listened to the half the BBC show. I said above that it seemed to move focus to on-the-street type stuff after that so didn't listen through to the end.

The topic of that episode is "Responsibility" which matches with Petersons mantra of taking personal responsibility ("clean your room"). It's not surprising that they then focused on that side of things and the kids they interviewed after seemed to find truth in his words. I don't think he generally "blames" young people either. He's got enough sense to know that they're a product of their surroundings and upbringing. Unfortunately, no matter how your parents raise you, the rest of the world is under no obligation to carry that on when you're an adult.

Out of interest and away from the Peterson discussion for a second; do you think there's been a trend towards abdicating personal responsibility in recent years? It seems like there has been to me but I'll admit that's based on anecdotal evidence. Young adults seem to need a lot more hold handing than in the past.

CruelCoin · 04-09-2018 4:19pm

xckjoo wrote: »

Out of interest and away from the Peterson discussion for a second; do you think there's been a trend towards abdicating personal responsibility in recent years? It seems like there has been to me but I'll admit that's based on anecdotal evidence. Young adults seem to need a lot more hold handing than in the past.

Yes.

My friends wife came out recently with something along the line of "if my parents hadn't gaslighted me all those years, then I wouldn't so ****ed up".
Gaslighting apparently is scolding your children when they pull on the cats tail, saying no to them when they ask for your phone, etc. That's a bad thing it seems, and now she's raising her kid with no scolding at all.

A part of me looks forward to seeing how ****ed up and degenerate that child is going to become. If only so that she can be a warning to others going down the "snowflaking for new parents" track.

kunst nugget · 04-09-2018 4:57pm

CruelCoin wrote: »

Yes.

My friends wife came out recently with something along the line of "if my parents hadn't gaslighted me all those years, then I wouldn't so ****ed up".
Gaslighting apparently is scolding your children when they pull on the cats tail, saying no to them when they ask for your phone, etc. That's a bad thing it seems, and now she's raising her kid with no scolding at all.

A part of me looks forward to seeing how ****ed up and degenerate that child is going to become. If only so that she can be a warning to others going down the "snowflaking for new parents" track.

That's not what gaslighting is at all. It's using psychological manipulation and misdirection to make a person question their own memory and perception of events so that they no longer know what's true or not. It's a form of psychological abuse.

Outlaw Pete · 04-09-2018 5:43pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I have the wrong video. He’s just banging on about religion.

lol. How convenient. Multiple links, time stamps, but somehow you can't seem to find it.

I even typed out what he said from the video, is there some reason you can't read it?

Again, you said:

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

But he would never voluntarily make that point about conservatives. He only makes the point about how the left does these things.

His audience doesn’t want to hear about how they’re wrong. They only want to hear about how the left are wrong.

Clearly, to anyone that has listened to Petterson, that is not the case, the following a prime example:

Peterson: "[Identity politics] opens the door to the radical right wingers..."
Shapiro: "Yes and that's the danger of the actual alt-right as the alt-right is a reactionary identity politics movement and the left doesn't want acknowledge its own role in helping to drive the emergence of a reactionary identity politics movement, which by the way, I find despicable as I think all identity politics movements are despicable"
Peterson: "That's exactly what i think too. I don't care if they're on the right or the left."

johnp001 · 04-09-2018 5:54pm

Giraffe Box wrote: »

Good post. You seem like a reasonable person who's unashamedly unsure of Petersen, and definitely not a reverential acolyte.
Speaking of which, you might want have a listen to this interview which is very interesting, it includes a surprisingly candid remark from JP, which, in my opinion, is dictionary definition 'bite the hand that feeds you': ''18 year old students don't know anything, they seriously don't know anything''.
12.29 approx.
Enjoy.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/play/b0b3fk63

This is just an example of someone not pandering to their audience. And pandering is so widespread that some people actively seek out a message like his that doesn't pander to them.

Giraffe Box · 04-09-2018 6:14pm

johnp001 wrote: »

This is just an example of someone not pandering to their audience. And pandering is so widespread that some people actively seek out a message like his that doesn't pander to them.

Well, it was a one-on-one with a 69 year old writer and broadcaster.
Maybe he really does believe that 18-year-old students don't know anything, maybe he'll change his mind if questioned about that quote at some future time, who knows.
These things slip out sometimes, as I said 'biting the hand that feeds', and he's feeding very well lately thanks to a hell of a lot of know-nothing 18-year-old students.
Some might call that hypocrisy, but I think we're all fallible, aren't we, even JP?

johnp001 · 04-09-2018 6:27pm

Giraffe Box wrote: »

Well, it was a one-on-one with a 69 year old writer and broadcaster.
Maybe he really does believe that 18-year-old students don't know anything, maybe he'll change his mind if questioned about that quote at some future time, who knows.
These things slip out sometimes, as I said 'biting the hand that feeds', and he's feeding very well lately thanks to a hell of a lot of know-nothing 18-year-old students.
Some might call that hypocrisy, but I think we're all fallible, aren't we, even JP?

There's obviously a market for telling people that they know nothing. Nothing intrinsically hypocritical about providing that service. He might sincerely believe that the 18 year olds benefit from hearing this message. I have heard him express the same sentiment on several occasions.

Giraffe Box · 04-09-2018 6:48pm

johnp001 wrote: »

There's obviously a market for telling people that they know nothing. Nothing intrinsically hypocritical about providing that service. He might sincerely believe that the 18 year olds benefit from hearing this message. I have heard him express the same sentiment on several occasions.

Do you agree with him on that?

CruelCoin · 04-09-2018 7:18pm

kunst nugget wrote: »

That's not what gaslighting is at all. It's using psychological manipulation and misdirection to make a person question their own memory and perception of events so that they no longer know what's true or not. It's a form of psychological abuse.

Ah. Well that's what she thinks is gaslighting (and me through her)
Cheers for the clarification.

El_Duderino 09 · 04-09-2018 7:30pm

xckjoo wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The topic of the radio 4 interview was morality. But don’t worry, the conclusion is exactly the same as always. It’s the lefts fault no matter what topic he’s asked about.

I listened to the half the BBC show. I said above that it seemed to move focus to on-the-street type stuff after that so didn't listen through to the end.

The topic of that episode is "Responsibility" which matches with Petersons mantra of taking personal responsibility ("clean your room"). It's not surprising that they then focused on that side of things and the kids they interviewed after seemed to find truth in his words. I don't think he generally "blames" young people either. He's got enough sense to know that they're a product of their surroundings and upbringing. Unfortunately, no matter how your parents raise you, the rest of the world is under no obligation to carry that on when you're an adult.

Out of interest and away from the Peterson discussion for a second; do you think there's been a trend towards abdicating personal responsibility in recent years? It seems like there has been to me but I'll admit that's based on anecdotal evidence. Young adults seem to need a lot more hold handing than in the past.

You're right. The topic was responsibility. So when he talks about freedom of expression or responsibility, he really only talks about them as left problems. He could use Colin Kapernick as as example of someone who has been shut out of his job and 'no platformed'. Bullied by the POTUS who traditionally upheld the right to free speech. But I wouldn't hold my breath because his audience doesn't want to hear that so he won't be selling it. He'll package 'the left' as the problem because that's the product he's selling.

On the interview, don't you think it's amusing that he spent so much time giving g out about young people and then they had young people who explicitly agreed with everything he said? If 'the kids today' are such responsibility dodging little cretins as Peterson describe them, why didn't they get some of those responsibility Dodgers to take part in the discussion?

Do I believe that the young people today abdicate responsibility? I've no idea. I don't actually have any way to compare it. I know 'young people today aren't as good as back in my day' is something old people say. It's said by every generation, ever.

This quote is attributed to Sacrates about 400BC: "The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room"

I suppose the most interesting thing about old people being so intent on talking down the youth, is the fact that they think they're discovering something new. They don't seem to know that they're assuming the most cliche mantra of old people. The day will never come when Peterson can't flog 'young people and the left are doing it wrong' to old conservative people.

El_Duderino 09 · 04-09-2018 7:35pm

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I have the wrong video. He’s just banging on about religion.

lol. How convenient. Multiple links, time stamps, but somehow you can't seem to find it.

I even typed out what he said from the video, is there some reason you can't read it?

Again, you said:

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

But he would never voluntarily make that point about conservatives. He only makes the point about how the left does these things.

His audience doesn’t want to hear about how they’re wrong. They only want to hear about how the left are wrong.

Clearly, to anyone that has listened to Petterson, that is not the case, the following a prime example:

Peterson: "[Identity politics] opens the door to the radical right wingers..."
Shapiro: "Yes and that's the danger of the actual alt-right as the alt-right is a reactionary identity politics movement and the left doesn't want acknowledge its own role in helping to drive the emergence of a reactionary identity politics movement, which by the way, I find despicable as I think all identity politics movements are despicable"
Peterson: "That's exactly what i think too. I don't care if they're on the right or the left."

The link didn't work on the boards app. I googled a Shapiro Peterson Interview and went to the time stamp another poster gave. I must have had the wrong interview because it was still on religion after 15 mins.

Just post the web address and I'll copy and paste it into my browser.

johnp001 · 04-09-2018 7:47pm

Giraffe Box wrote: »

Do you agree with him on that?

History has many examples of people who made big impacts on society at a young age so I would not agree with anyone who said "no 18 year old knows anything and attempts by them to effect change in society are either futile or destructive". In the context of that show and on the subject of responsibility though he is correct to say that people are generally better served by accepting personal responsibility for their situation and trying to improve themselves as a first step before deciding that society needs to be reconstructed to remedy their problems.

Jordan Peterson interview on C4

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