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Gangland Shootings [Mod Note in Post #1]
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Thesomersarms wrote: »Some very good points, I have thought that a lot as in how much is this guy really responsible for, it’s questionable however on the flip side I find it odd that he has never taken any legal action against the papers or even the writers of a book were he is repeatedly named as the head of the gang responsible for all sorts of illegal activity, why wouldn’t he sue?
Perhaps he just doesn't want any more bad publicity, or thinks there's enough evidence to make any such case a bit shaky. Or, perhaps he doesn't want to draw any more attention to himself or his family - or perhaps, given the price on his head, he couldn't bring himself to set foot in Ireland to show up in our courts for such a case anyway
I'm not in any way saying that I personally believe him to be an innocent victim of a media smear campaign, but I've seen firsthand how the media can take their story from one side with an axe to grind and just run with it, becoming essentially a "smear for hire" outfit if someone is able to spin them a good yarn which will make some nice headlines, regardless of veracity. And I've been told by multiple people involved in the justice system that Paul Williams in particular is full of sh!t and firstly treats the Gardai as a 100% credible source with no need to fact check anything they tell him, and secondly is more than willing to sacrifice reality for jucier fiction if given the choice. Even the term "Crumlin-Drimnagh feud" which he himself coined to describe the Rattigan vs Thompson gang war and which was adopted universally by the Irish media has been described by people living locally as inaccurate - according to them, most of the alleged participants actually lived in Dolphin's Barn and Rialto.
There have also been multiple people who seem to actually know some of the people involved, comment in this thread and in other forums that the real feud is between the Hutch faction and the Byrne faction, not the Kinahans. I wouldn't see any reason to believe those people, but likewise anonymous gangsters talking to journalists don't rank much higher on my own list of what I'd consider credible sources of information. So if that statement by one of the gunmen singling out Daniel Kinahan is actually the original source of the term "Hutch-Kinahan feud", which it seems to be based on my own research into news stories from the time, I'd take it with at least some pinch of salt.
At the end of the day, the only thing we can reliably go on in these situations is our tried and tested justice system involving fair trials, burdens of proof, and juries of our peers. So in that context, I personally just find it distasteful that a person can lose their job, their business and be exiled from their colleagues and livelihood in the absence of a conviction. I'd regard it as no different to people tagged by #metoo losing their jobs and acting roles on the basis of accusations, without ever having actually been convicted in court - in my view, it just gives too much power in society to vindictive people who would be willing to lie about somebody they had a grudge against, just to hurt them. History has shown us that there are plenty of humans who are more than capable of that. Therefore, any system which relies on "someone said you did X, therefore you should be punished for doing X" and gives the accused no recourse to contest that, is something I personally find dystopian as it pertains to where society is headed in general.
I'd apply that to most of these cases tbh. All of us were fairly united a few years ago in regarding Seanie Fitz as a crook who deserved to be run over the coals for what happened to our banking system, but as it turned out he wasn't found guilty when those accusations were tested in court. The lead-up to that - in that particular case, apparently an incompetent investigation - is kinda irrelevant, the fact is that by our standards of justice he should be allowed to live his life and not face further penalty over those allegations. And rightly so - because the alternative, if you think of everything from the witch hunts, to Guantanamo Bay, to the Guildford Four, is horrific and unthinkable.0 -
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hatrickpatrick wrote: »Perhaps he just doesn't want any more bad publicity, or thinks there's enough evidence to make any such case a bit shaky. Or, perhaps he doesn't want to draw any more attention to himself or his family - or perhaps, given the price on his head, he couldn't bring himself to set foot in Ireland to show up in our courts for such a case anyway
I'm not in any way saying that I personally believe him to be an innocent victim of a media smear campaign, but I've seen firsthand how the media can take their story from one side with an axe to grind and just run with it, becoming essentially a "smear for hire" outfit if someone is able to spin them a good yarn which will make some nice headlines, regardless of veracity. And I've been told by multiple people involved in the justice system that Paul Williams in particular is full of sh!t and firstly treats the Gardai as a 100% credible source with no need to fact check anything they tell him, and secondly is more than willing to sacrifice reality for jucier fiction if given the choice. Even the term "Crumlin-Drimnagh feud" which he himself coined to describe the Rattigan vs Thompson gang war and which was adopted universally by the Irish media has been described by people living locally as inaccurate - according to them, most of the alleged participants actually lived in Dolphin's Barn and Rialto.
There have also been multiple people who seem to actually know some of the people involved, comment in this thread and in other forums that the real feud is between the Hutch faction and the Byrne faction, not the Kinahans. I wouldn't see any reason to believe those people, but likewise anonymous gangsters talking to journalists don't rank much higher on my own list of what I'd consider credible sources of information. So if that statement by one of the gunmen singling out Daniel Kinahan is actually the original source of the term "Hutch-Kinahan feud", which it seems to be based on my own research into news stories from the time, I'd take it with at least some pinch of salt.
At the end of the day, the only thing we can reliably go on in these situations is our tried and tested justice system involving fair trials, burdens of proof, and juries of our peers. So in that context, I personally just find it distasteful that a person can lose their job, their business and be exiled from their colleagues and livelihood in the absence of a conviction. I'd regard it as no different to people tagged by #metoo losing their jobs and acting roles on the basis of accusations, without ever having actually been convicted in court - in my view, it just gives too much power in society to vindictive people who would be willing to lie about somebody they had a grudge against, just to hurt them. History has shown us that there are plenty of humans who are more than capable of that. Therefore, any system which relies on "someone said you did X, therefore you should be punished for doing X" and gives the accused no recourse to contest that, is something I personally find dystopian as it pertains to where society is headed in general.
I'd apply that to most of these cases tbh. All of us were fairly united a few years ago in regarding Seanie Fitz as a crook who deserved to be run over the coals for what happened to our banking system, but as it turned out he wasn't found guilty when those accusations were tested in court. The lead-up to that - in that particular case, apparently an incompetent investigation - is kinda irrelevant, the fact is that by our standards of justice he should be allowed to live his life and not face further penalty over those allegations. And rightly so - because the alternative, if you think of everything from the witch hunts, to Guantanamo Bay, to the Guildford Four, is horrific and unthinkable.
I thought a lot of the Rattigan gang were from Drimnagh , pretty certain Rattigan is from Cooley Road and the first victim , Gavin was from either Galtymore or Mourne road.Fairly there's quite a few more from Drimnagh too.
Freddy Thompson is from Cork street or Maryland.0 -
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