The Kerry Babies Case

sunbeam · 19-01-2018 9:22pm

The mother of a friend of mine had a baby that died in the early 70s and the hospital was extremely reluctant to let her take him home to bury him. The child was a few months old and baptised. I've no idea if they they were simply thought it would be less traumatic for the family to have him buried in the angels plot or if some other twisted logic was involved.

The mother stood her ground, bought a grave and had a proper funeral for her son.

Galwayguy35 · 19-01-2018 9:23pm

I was 10 back in 1984, I remember it being all over the news at the time.

I don't know how anyone can go to sleep every night for the past 34 years knowing they stabbed a 3 day old baby to death.

I hope baby John's killer is brought to justice but it's hard to see it happening after all this time.

RustyNut · 19-01-2018 9:23pm

splinter65 wrote: »

But Baptise she did....

Your point being?

splinter65 · 19-01-2018 10:01pm

RustyNut wrote: »

Your point being?

If a priest said that to me, called me a slut and my baby a bastard, I’d have decked him.
Now or in 1984.

splinter65 · 19-01-2018 10:04pm

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I was 10 back in 1984, I remember it being all over the news at the time.

I don't know how anyone can go to sleep every night for the past 34 years knowing they stabbed a 3 day old baby to death.

I hope baby John's killer is brought to justice but it's hard to see it happening after all this time.

That couple in Texas went to bed every night and slept for 30 years knowing their many children were dirty cold and hungry.
They’re not dirty cold or hungry themselves you’ll notice.
Not all parents are good, or even sane.

Atoms for Peace · 19-01-2018 10:14pm

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I was 10 back in 1984, I remember it being all over the news at the time.

I don't know how anyone can go to sleep every night for the past 34 years knowing they stabbed a 3 day old baby to death.

I hope baby John's killer is brought to justice but it's hard to see it happening after all this time.

More than likely it was somebody that found themselves in an extremely confusing and difficult situation with not many options. The Kerry babies case and others that happened at that time show how vindictive the actions of official Ireland could be to those who found themselves in such a situation.

WHIP IT! · 19-01-2018 10:18pm

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

More than likely it was somebody that found themselves in an extremely confusing and difficult situation with not many options. The Kerry babies case and others that happened at that time show how vindictive the actions of official Ireland could be to those who found themselves in such a situation.

I can't think of any situation, no matter how hard I try, where the only option is to stab a baby to death...

Wombatman · 19-01-2018 10:21pm

WHIP IT! wrote: »

I can't think of any situation, no matter how hard I try, where the only option is to stab a baby to death...

.... 28 times.

QueenRizla · 19-01-2018 11:55pm

There were theories that Baby John might have washed up from another county/country and that the stab wounds could have been caused by bird attack.
No idea the weight if any of that.
The confusion around the Hayes babies fate was Judge saying baby was beaten with a brush and strangled yet Harbison stating no evidence of such injuries on baby.

BENDYBINN · 20-01-2018 11:36am

Seems the long arm of the law will now be going around Cahersiveen
lookin for dna samples from everyone. If I lived there I’d tell them where to go!

tayto lover · 20-01-2018 11:44am

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Seems the long arm of the law will now be going around Cahersiveen
lookin for dna samples from everyone. If I lived there I’d tell them where to go!

So you don't want a baby killer found?

up for anything · 20-01-2018 12:27pm

Wombatman wrote: »

I wonder what the thinking was behind having the baby in a field?

I suppose her family didn't know she was pregnant - they'd accepted the first child but she may have felt they would not be so quick to accept another. So when push came to shove the most private place she may have been able to find on a farm would have been a field where she could scream a little without being overheard, or perhaps she found herself suddenly in pushing mode without much warning.

Who knows what went on in her head after a very stressful pregnancy, actually very stressful doesn't even begin to cover it. I very much doubt she was thinking if I have the baby out here it'll die or I can kill it and hide/bury the body and no one will be any the wiser. Girls and women didn't tend to think out their predicament, most who had no way out kept putting off the thinking until they really had to or it was too late.

BENDYBINN · 20-01-2018 12:30pm

tayto lover wrote: »

So you don't want a baby killer found?

Who’s going to be stitched up this time?

Ralf and Florian · 20-01-2018 12:38pm

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Seems the long arm of the law will now be going around Cahersiveen
lookin for dna samples from everyone. If I lived there I’d tell them where to go!

Why? Do you have something to hide?

tayto lover · 20-01-2018 12:57pm

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Who’s going to be stitched up this time?

So you don't want a baby killer found??

BENDYBINN · 20-01-2018 1:24pm

tayto lover wrote: »

So you don't want a baby killer found??

But has Joanne and her family not already confessed to this murder?

tayto lover · 20-01-2018 1:26pm

BENDYBINN wrote: »

But has Joanne and her family not already confessed to this murder?

All the wrongs that happened to that poor girl were terrible as everyone agrees.
Now do you not want the murderer found?

Buford T. Justice XIX · 20-01-2018 1:28pm

BENDYBINN wrote: »

But has Joanne and her family not already confessed to this murder?

There was no murder.

The baby was ruled to have been stillborn and no evidence of any description was found to the contrary.

The Caherciveen baby had nothing to do with the Hayes family in any way, shape or form!

BENDYBINN · 20-01-2018 1:39pm

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

There was no murder.

The baby was ruled to have been stillborn and no evidence of any description was found to the contrary.

The Caherciveen baby had nothing to do with the Hayes family in any way, shape or form!

Absolutely correct.
But Joanne was charged with the Cahersiveen murder after she and her family confessed.Why?

goose2005 · 20-01-2018 1:50pm

tayto lover wrote: »

So you don't want a baby killer found?

even if you did somehow find someone who was possibly the mother/father of John, I don't think it would be possible to prosecute

tayto lover · 20-01-2018 2:05pm

goose2005 wrote: »

even if you did somehow find someone who was possibly the mother/father of John, I don't think it would be possible to prosecute

Why?

QueenRizla · 20-01-2018 2:28pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Why?

Well it is possible the mother/father had nothing to do with the death. Father possibly not aware of pregnancy, or fate of baby taken out of Mothers hands?.. The circumstances could be far removed than anything that’s been speculated.

It is very emotive and the previous witch hunt on the Hayes family and the desire to nail down a verdict could mean anyone with matching DNA could be ‘stitched up’ to match a narrative that is more imagined than real. I would not be confident of a fair trail or presumption of innocence if DNA matches or it yielding the truth of what happened. Not saying it might not reveal the truth but not sure, it is also possible DNA match could be dragged through the mud and accused of all sorts they might not have done.

groovyg · 20-01-2018 2:43pm

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Absolutely correct.
But Joanne was charged with the Cahersiveen murder after she and her family confessed.Why?

She was charged with murder because the gardai beat the crap out of them and forced them to confess to it. When the baby on the Hayes farm was found this was confirmed as Joanne’s baby as it matched her bloody type. The baby washed up in the beach was a different blood type to Joanne Hayes which meant she wasn’t the mother. But gardai wanted to have somebody to blame so they came with up the theory of superfecundation, that JH had sex with two different men within the space of 48hrs and had twins. This was total bull**** and the DPP instructed the the case to be dropped. After this a tribunal of inquiry was set up supposedly to investigate the whole case which turned into a trial of JH more than the conduct of the gardai. If you want to find out more in the case there is a good book called A woman to blame by Nell McCafferty.

QueenRizla · 20-01-2018 2:52pm

I think the point Bendybinn is making is the Baby John case could be another witch hunt. The tribunal (Judge Lynch) and O’Carroll didnt drop the narrative of JH being a murderer despite contrary physical evidence....is a DNA match going to be enough to make a murder suspect where there is none? Just my take, I might be off track.

Wombatman · 20-01-2018 2:52pm

up for anything wrote: »

I suppose her family didn't know she was pregnant - they'd accepted the first child but she may have felt they would not be so quick to accept another. So when push came to shove the most private place she may have been able to find on a farm would have been a field where she could scream a little without being overheard, or perhaps she found herself suddenly in pushing mode without much warning.

Who knows what went on in her head after a very stressful pregnancy, actually very stressful doesn't even begin to cover it. I very much doubt she was thinking if I have the baby out here it'll die or I can kill it and hide/bury the body and no one will be any the wiser. Girls and women didn't tend to think out their predicament, most who had no way out kept putting off the thinking until they really had to or it was too late.

That tribunal in January 1985 was some witch hunt.

Q. I have to put this to you, because it has been raised in evidence, Jeremiah Locke said that when he began to make love with you that he said that in answer to questions he said that you were not a virgin at that time?

A. That is correct.

Q. Is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. You told the tribunal that when you became pregnant the last time you think your family suspected and there is some evidence that Kathleen did suspect but you didn’t tell any of them?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Why didn’t you tell them?

A. Well, they were good enough to care for Yvonne. I did not feel like telling them I was pregnant again by the same man when he was married.

Q. Take Kathleen your sister, you didn’t even tell Kathleen?

A. No.

Q. Was there any reason why you didn’t go to a doctor?

A. No.

Q. Do you not think it was rather foolish?

A. Yes, very silly.

Q. Perhaps, even stupid?

A. Yes, very stupid.

Q. What did you intend to do after the baby was born?

A. I intended to get a flat for Yvonne and myself here in Tralee.

Q. Here in town?

A. Yes.

Q. Why was that?

A. I don’t think it was fair to the lads at home and I would get as much social welfare at home as if I was out on my own.

Q. Is the Unmarried Mothers Allowance?

A. Yes.

Q. Was that the reason why you didn’t tell your family you were pregnant.

A. It is possible.

Q. You said that you kept it to yourself but we heard the staff in the sports centre or at least the female members of the staff were aware of the fact that you were pregnant?

A. That is correct.

Q. It was drawn to Mr Bohen’s attention and he talked to you about it?

A. Yes, that is correct.

Q. Did you believe that they suspected you were pregnant at the time. Were you able to conceal it?

A. Possibly they knew.

Q. Was there any reason why you didn’t go along and apply for maternity leave?

A. I had no intention of coming back to work.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/the-joanne-hayes-tapes-a-young-woman-put-on-trial-466064.html

AudreyHepburn · 20-01-2018 6:42pm

A horrific case for all concerned except of course those who went out of their way to ruin Joanne Hayes life.

What really gets me is that there is 3 day old baby boy lying in grave having suffered a horrific death who may never get justice.

I wholeheartedly support the requesting of DNA samples from locals in Caherciveen and the surrounding area and would be very suspicious of anyone that refuses.

Joanne H has been vindicated. It’s time for baby John to have justice done.

AudreyHepburn · 20-01-2018 6:52pm

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Who’s going to be stitched up this time?

I somehow doubt those same mistakes will be made again.

If you’ve done nothing wrong then you have nothing to fear and frankly I would question the morals of anyone who put their own interests above those of a murdered baby.

RustyNut · 20-01-2018 6:59pm

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

A horrific case for all concerned except of course those who went out of their way to ruin Joanne Hayes life.

What really gets me is that there is 3 day old baby boy lying in grave having suffered a horrific death who may never get justice.

I wholeheartedly support the requesting of DNA samples from locals in Caherciveen and the surrounding area and would be very suspicious of anyone that refuses.

Joanne H has been vindicated. It’s time for baby John to have justice done.

Some effort should also be made to bring the people who attempted to stitch her up to justice.

AudreyHepburn · 20-01-2018 7:02pm

RustyNut wrote: »

Some effort should also be made to bring the people who attempted to stitch her up to justice.

Without question and I don’t care old or infirm they are.

Galwayguy35 · 20-01-2018 7:29pm

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

More than likely it was somebody that found themselves in an extremely confusing and difficult situation with not many options. The Kerry babies case and others that happened at that time show how vindictive the actions of official Ireland could be to those who found themselves in such a situation.

Yes the church still had a grip on the country back then.

However there is no way of excusing the murder of an innocent baby no matter what way you might try to do so.

The Kerry Babies Case

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