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Child Item

The Kerry Babies Case

irishguitarlad

What do you think of it? As the son of an Abbeydorney woman I take an interest in it as I kept on hearing about it growing up. I reckon the gardaí were covering up for someone when they blamed Joanna Hayes. Anyways, what's your opinion?

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[Deleted User]

up for anything wrote: »

You had to be there!

Having a baby out of wedlock back then was probably one of the worst things that could happen to a woman. Joanne Hayes while still unmarried had given birth to second baby who was born dead. At a guess I would say she was traumatised by hiding the pregnancy, traumatised by probably giving birth outside and in secret with the memory of Ann Lovett's death only two months previously fresh in her mind and the baby was dead so a proper burial wasn't first and foremost in her mind I would imagine. As for registering a name... seriously you have absolutely no idea of what it was like back then.

thanks for writing this.
I wasn't born when this all happened, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that this is what it was like for that girl at the time.

some people here questioning why she kept it all secret. she kept it secret because her situation was a 'dirty little secret':(

[Deleted User]

At the time, the Irish Independent published a selection of Ned Hayes' Inter Cert results (they weren't too good) in an attempt to belittle him and the family.

Sardonicat

Day Lewin wrote: »

Her father was present. Her sister committed suicide a year later. Draw your own conclusions.

Where did you get the information that her father was present? Ann was found, dying of blood loss and exposure, next to the body of her stillborn son, by some school boys. They went to raise the alarm.

Ann died shortly after in hospital. She was 15 years old.

Her sister, Patricia, took her own life three months later. She was 14 years old.

I remember this case and the Kerry Babies case well. I was thirteen years old at the time.

Truly horrific events and a damnimg reflection of our society at the time. A few months after the country voted for protection of life of the unborn our news papers and broadcasts were dominated by stories featuring dead babies and children.

daithi1970

Owta Control wrote: »

I've heard of it.. haven't a clue what it is though... enlightenment would be lovely

As Catholics,we are all born with the original sin of Eve upon our souls. The only way to be cleansed of this original sin is to be baptised with the rites of the Roman Catholic Church. Those who die before baptism is possible still have the original sin of Eve on their souls, and as such their souls can never go to Heaven,but must remain in Limbo.,a place of nothingness,which is neither heaven,purgatory, or hell.
Recently, the RCC have said that the whole limbo doctrine may be in question,by saying that the mercy and love of God may save souls from limbo. However,the docrtine of limbo has never been fully repudiated. Interestingly, it was believed during the Middle Ages that all unbaptised babies were damned to Hell........

Odhinn

Owta Control wrote: »

Have you done something wrong?

Why do you ask?

Owta Control

Odhinn wrote: »

There's never been any attempt to seriously address failings in the Gardai, eg
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/nicky-kelly-still-seeks-answers-for-sallins-train-robbery-arrest-1.2598157
As a result, I'd be quite fearful indeed.

Have you done something wrong?

Odhinn

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I somehow doubt those same mistakes will be made again.

If you’ve done nothing wrong then you have nothing to fear ........

There's never been any attempt to seriously address failings in the Gardai, eg
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/nicky-kelly-still-seeks-answers-for-sallins-train-robbery-arrest-1.2598157
As a result, I'd be quite fearful indeed.

RustyNut

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I somehow doubt those same mistakes will be made again.

If you’ve done nothing wrong then you have nothing to fear and frankly I would question the morals of anyone who put their own interests above those of a murdered baby.

I think anyone who read the evidence that the Gardai gave in the Jobstown water protesters case would have good reason to be afraid of getting stitched up.

The best predictor of future behavior is … past behavior

Odhinn

RustyNut wrote: »

Some effort should also be made to bring the people who attempted to stitch her up to justice.

They were "sidelined" which is about as good as it gets in this state. Generally its seen as far easier to hang the victim than face up to the problem with agents of the state. Senior gardai, due to their role in intelligence gathering, tend to have a certain immunity, given that they often know the "dirt" on various political and civil service figures, and of course each other.

Odhinn

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Absolutely correct.
But Joanne was charged with the Cahersiveen murder after she and her family confessed.Why?

They went down, slapped them round a bit and the family confessed to the story the gardai gave them. They were then charged in light of this.

Owta Control

daithi1970 wrote: »

..I assume you're familiar with the doctrine of Original Sin?

I've heard of it.. haven't a clue what it is though... enlightenment would be lovely

daithi1970

Dakota Dan wrote: »

So whoever followed the Catholic Church at the time are all guilty of a crime they didn't commit.

..I assume you're familiar with the doctrine of Original Sin?

Galwayguy35

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

More than likely it was somebody that found themselves in an extremely confusing and difficult situation with not many options. The Kerry babies case and others that happened at that time show how vindictive the actions of official Ireland could be to those who found themselves in such a situation.

Yes the church still had a grip on the country back then.

However there is no way of excusing the murder of an innocent baby no matter what way you might try to do so.

AudreyHepburn

RustyNut wrote: »

Some effort should also be made to bring the people who attempted to stitch her up to justice.

Without question and I don’t care old or infirm they are.

RustyNut

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

A horrific case for all concerned except of course those who went out of their way to ruin Joanne Hayes life.

What really gets me is that there is 3 day old baby boy lying in grave having suffered a horrific death who may never get justice.

I wholeheartedly support the requesting of DNA samples from locals in Caherciveen and the surrounding area and would be very suspicious of anyone that refuses.

Joanne H has been vindicated. It’s time for baby John to have justice done.

Some effort should also be made to bring the people who attempted to stitch her up to justice.

AudreyHepburn

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Who’s going to be stitched up this time?

I somehow doubt those same mistakes will be made again.

If you’ve done nothing wrong then you have nothing to fear and frankly I would question the morals of anyone who put their own interests above those of a murdered baby.

AudreyHepburn

A horrific case for all concerned except of course those who went out of their way to ruin Joanne Hayes life.

What really gets me is that there is 3 day old baby boy lying in grave having suffered a horrific death who may never get justice.

I wholeheartedly support the requesting of DNA samples from locals in Caherciveen and the surrounding area and would be very suspicious of anyone that refuses.

Joanne H has been vindicated. It’s time for baby John to have justice done.

Wombatman

up for anything wrote: »

I suppose her family didn't know she was pregnant - they'd accepted the first child but she may have felt they would not be so quick to accept another. So when push came to shove the most private place she may have been able to find on a farm would have been a field where she could scream a little without being overheard, or perhaps she found herself suddenly in pushing mode without much warning.

Who knows what went on in her head after a very stressful pregnancy, actually very stressful doesn't even begin to cover it. I very much doubt she was thinking if I have the baby out here it'll die or I can kill it and hide/bury the body and no one will be any the wiser. Girls and women didn't tend to think out their predicament, most who had no way out kept putting off the thinking until they really had to or it was too late.

That tribunal in January 1985 was some witch hunt.

Q. I have to put this to you, because it has been raised in evidence, Jeremiah Locke said that when he began to make love with you that he said that in answer to questions he said that you were not a virgin at that time?

A. That is correct.

Q. Is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. You told the tribunal that when you became pregnant the last time you think your family suspected and there is some evidence that Kathleen did suspect but you didn’t tell any of them?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Why didn’t you tell them?

A. Well, they were good enough to care for Yvonne. I did not feel like telling them I was pregnant again by the same man when he was married.

Q. Take Kathleen your sister, you didn’t even tell Kathleen?

A. No.

Q. Was there any reason why you didn’t go to a doctor?

A. No.

Q. Do you not think it was rather foolish?

A. Yes, very silly.

Q. Perhaps, even stupid?

A. Yes, very stupid.

Q. What did you intend to do after the baby was born?

A. I intended to get a flat for Yvonne and myself here in Tralee.

Q. Here in town?

A. Yes.

Q. Why was that?

A. I don’t think it was fair to the lads at home and I would get as much social welfare at home as if I was out on my own.

Q. Is the Unmarried Mothers Allowance?

A. Yes.

Q. Was that the reason why you didn’t tell your family you were pregnant.

A. It is possible.

Q. You said that you kept it to yourself but we heard the staff in the sports centre or at least the female members of the staff were aware of the fact that you were pregnant?

A. That is correct.

Q. It was drawn to Mr Bohen’s attention and he talked to you about it?

A. Yes, that is correct.

Q. Did you believe that they suspected you were pregnant at the time. Were you able to conceal it?

A. Possibly they knew.

Q. Was there any reason why you didn’t go along and apply for maternity leave?

A. I had no intention of coming back to work.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/the-joanne-hayes-tapes-a-young-woman-put-on-trial-466064.html

QueenRizla

I think the point Bendybinn is making is the Baby John case could be another witch hunt. The tribunal (Judge Lynch) and O’Carroll didnt drop the narrative of JH being a murderer despite contrary physical evidence....is a DNA match going to be enough to make a murder suspect where there is none? Just my take, I might be off track.

groovyg

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Absolutely correct.
But Joanne was charged with the Cahersiveen murder after she and her family confessed.Why?

She was charged with murder because the gardai beat the crap out of them and forced them to confess to it. When the baby on the Hayes farm was found this was confirmed as Joanne’s baby as it matched her bloody type. The baby washed up in the beach was a different blood type to Joanne Hayes which meant she wasn’t the mother. But gardai wanted to have somebody to blame so they came with up the theory of superfecundation, that JH had sex with two different men within the space of 48hrs and had twins. This was total bull**** and the DPP instructed the the case to be dropped. After this a tribunal of inquiry was set up supposedly to investigate the whole case which turned into a trial of JH more than the conduct of the gardai. If you want to find out more in the case there is a good book called A woman to blame by Nell McCafferty.

QueenRizla

tayto lover wrote: »

Why?

Well it is possible the mother/father had nothing to do with the death. Father possibly not aware of pregnancy, or fate of baby taken out of Mothers hands?.. The circumstances could be far removed than anything that’s been speculated.

It is very emotive and the previous witch hunt on the Hayes family and the desire to nail down a verdict could mean anyone with matching DNA could be ‘stitched up’ to match a narrative that is more imagined than real. I would not be confident of a fair trail or presumption of innocence if DNA matches or it yielding the truth of what happened. Not saying it might not reveal the truth but not sure, it is also possible DNA match could be dragged through the mud and accused of all sorts they might not have done.

tayto lover

goose2005 wrote: »

even if you did somehow find someone who was possibly the mother/father of John, I don't think it would be possible to prosecute

Why?

goose2005

tayto lover wrote: »

So you don't want a baby killer found?

even if you did somehow find someone who was possibly the mother/father of John, I don't think it would be possible to prosecute

BENDYBINN

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

There was no murder.

The baby was ruled to have been stillborn and no evidence of any description was found to the contrary.

The Caherciveen baby had nothing to do with the Hayes family in any way, shape or form!

Absolutely correct.
But Joanne was charged with the Cahersiveen murder after she and her family confessed.Why?

Buford T. Justice XIX

BENDYBINN wrote: »

But has Joanne and her family not already confessed to this murder?

There was no murder.

The baby was ruled to have been stillborn and no evidence of any description was found to the contrary.

The Caherciveen baby had nothing to do with the Hayes family in any way, shape or form!

tayto lover

BENDYBINN wrote: »

But has Joanne and her family not already confessed to this murder?

All the wrongs that happened to that poor girl were terrible as everyone agrees.
Now do you not want the murderer found?

BENDYBINN

tayto lover wrote: »

So you don't want a baby killer found??

But has Joanne and her family not already confessed to this murder?

tayto lover

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Who’s going to be stitched up this time?

So you don't want a baby killer found??

Ralf and Florian

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Seems the long arm of the law will now be going around Cahersiveen
lookin for dna samples from everyone. If I lived there I’d tell them where to go!

Why? Do you have something to hide?

BENDYBINN

tayto lover wrote: »

So you don't want a baby killer found?

Who’s going to be stitched up this time?