The Kerry Babies Case

RustyNut

splinter65 wrote: »

I was 19 in a rural town in Ireland in 1984.
The first female chemist opened a pharmacy in the town and put a display of Durex condoms on the counter. She was also the first divorced person anyone had ever met.
Within weeks all the other chemists were selling condoms, they just didn’t display them .
I did my LC in 1982. Two girls got pregnant in 5th year. Both took a year out. Both returned with their babies, and went back to school, an all girls school.
Unbelievably, they came back and the pregnancies were never mentioned.
There was as much sex going on then as there is now.
I had plenty of sex.
One later gave her baby up for adoption under pressure from her mother who insisted that she’d never get a husband, a fate worse then death.
Everyone went to mass, automatically , every Sunday.
That summer was lovely and sunny, the music was great, good times.

Yes there were a lot of enlightened people around at the time and it was the start of end of the influence of the church over the state thanks to people like the chemist.

The facts remain that the chemist that displayed the condoms would have been breaking the law if they sold the condoms to someone without a prescription.

She didn't get her divorce here in Ireland, that was not a legal option here no matter how abusive the marrage might have been.

The children that the 5th year students had, assuming that they weren't married were "illegitimate" in the eyes of the state and were discriminated against in several ways, inheritance etc. A lot of catholic schools wouldn't enroll bastard illegitimate children and stigmatised their wider families.

Can state funded schools still discriminate against families who choose not to follow the Catholic religion? If not when was that law changed?

We have come a long way, still a way to go.

ohnonotgmail

RustyNut wrote: »

Yes there were a lot of enlightened people around at the time and it was the start of end of the influence of the church over the state thanks to people like the chemist.

The facts remain that the chemist that displayed the condoms would have been breaking the law if they sold the condoms to someone without a prescription.

She didn't get her divorce here in Ireland, that was not a legal option here no matter how abusive the marrage might have been.

The children that the 5th year students had, assuming that they weren't married were "illegitimate" in the eyes of the state and we're discriminated against in several ways, inheritance etc. A lot of catholic schools wouldn't enroll bastard illegitimate children and stigmatised their wider families.

Can state funded schools still discriminate against families who choose not to follow the Catholic religion? If not when was that law changed?

We have come a long way, still a way to go.

they can prioritise baptised children over the non-baptised when a school is over subscribed so yes they can discriminate against non-catholics

Pawwed Rig

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

they can prioritise baptised children over the non-baptised when a school is over subscribed so yes they can discriminate against non-catholics

And do frequently

WHIP IT!

erica74 wrote: »

I have read the posts from people who were teenagers in the 80s in Ireland. I was 12 in 1999 when my brother got his girlfriend pregnant at the age of 17. This was, coincidentally, in Kerry also. When the baby was born, there was a difficulty getting the baby baptised as my brother and his girlfriend weren't married and were so young. The 2 local priests wouldn't do it so they had to travel to a larger town in order to get her baptised.
That was in 1999, nearly 20 years after this case.

Jesus when I read things like this it makes me wonder what the living f*ck goes on down the country at all. My GF and I were same age as your bro and "we" got pregnant the same year. Not even a hint of any of the rubbish that your bro and his partner were subjected to.

Up the Dubs, I suppose!

groovyg

skylight1987 wrote: »

this lady illegally buried her baby on her land .she wouldn't even give him the decency of a proper burial. didn't even register a name .yes she was wronged by the gardai in relation to the other baby but what she did to her own flesh and blood was cruel .no one bothers to mention this now though .the only people I feel sorry for are both babies .

It was 1984 different times to now before 1995 stillborn births were not considered births. Who knows what would have happened if she had the baby in hospital it could have ended up in a mass grave somewhere.
One of my friends told me her mother had a stillbirth back in the 80's she went in to hospital and came home with nothing and it was never spoken about again.

goose2005

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Cruel how?
What is a proper burial and how does it differ from what she did?
What difference does it make to register a name?

It wasn't even possible to register a stillborn child until January 1995.

Since January 1995, parents of a stillborn child in Ireland have been able to register their child's birth, even if he/she was born before that date.

...

All stillbirths occurring in Ireland since 1 January 1995 must be registered, if the baby weighs at least 500 grammes or has a gestational age of at least 24 weeks.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/miscarriage_and_stillbirth/registering_stillbirth.html

goose2005

groovyg wrote: »

It was 1984 different times to now before 1995 stillborn births were not considered births. Who knows what would have happened if she had the baby in hospital it could have ended up in a mass grave somewhere.

But not before our nice catholic doctors had helped themselves to some tissue samples, without asking permission

goose2005

splinter65 wrote: »

In 1978 when I was 13, I clearly recall my 11 year old brother sitting up to the Sunday dinner table to announce that his friends 19 year old sister was having a baby.
An argument quickly ensued between us because I absolutely knew that she simply couldn’t be pregnant because you can’t physically become pregnant unless you are married.
And my poor mortified mother trying to shut us up.
And on your wedding night you wake up in the morning and you have grown breasts. Overnight. Fact.

I remember being confused by the song "Remember me? I'm the one who had your babies" because how could you forget your wife's name, it doesn't make sense.

tayto lover

groovyg wrote: »

It was 1984 different times to now before 1995 stillborn births were not considered births. Who knows what would have happened if she had the baby in hospital it could have ended up in a mass grave somewhere.
One of my friends told me her mother had a stillbirth back in the 80's she went in to hospital and came home with nothing and it was never spoken about again.

Not only that. A man I knew years ago committed suicide and the family were not allowed to bury him in a graveyard because it was consecrated ground. He had to be buried in a field behind it. Awful times then.

ellejay

igCorcaigh wrote: »

What does it matter though? It was her baby, she could bury the child anywhere she wanted. I just wonder why she did what she did.

Maybe she felt she was totally let down by the RCC so thought no way were they going to bury her baby or have anything to do with it.

Call me Al

evolving_doors wrote: »

I presume it was like having a miscarriage back in that day or if the baby dies in birth or before being baptised. It couldn't be buried in consecrated ground and the mother had to be 'cleansed' by the priest.
https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/they-buried-our-baby-for-5-and-nothing-more-was-said-1.561034
probably wasn't that uncommon for babies to be buried 'elsewhere' back in those days (Tuam mass grave and all that too!)

I think this is a point that is being missed by many. Some people are judging a1984 Joanne Hayes with 2018 eyes.
I know within my own rural area that stillborn babies born up to and during the 1960s weren't registered or buried in the traditional ways we are familiar with. They would often just be buried in the garden of the house or farm. It would never be on consecrated ground of a graveyard. Was it still happening in the 80s? Well I wouldn't think it unlikely.

ellejay

Electric Sheep wrote: »

The father of Joanne's baby has always been known, he testified at the tribunal. It was never a mystery.

What is his name please

.......

This post has been deleted.

Ineedaname

tayto lover wrote: »

Not only that. A man I knew years ago committed suicide and the family were not allowed to bury him in a graveyard because it was consecrated ground. He had to be buried in a field behind it. Awful times then.

Three of my fathers siblings died at birth. They weren't baptised so they couldn't be buried in a graveyard. They're buried in a field on our neighbours land. They're not alone either.

ellejay

skylight1987 wrote: »

this lady illegally buried her baby on her land .she wouldn't even give him the decency of a proper burial. didn't even register a name .yes she was wronged by the gardai in relation to the other baby but what she did to her own flesh and blood was cruel .no one bothers to mention this now though .the only people I feel sorry for are both babies .

Who's to say she buried the baby?
Maybe the father buried the baby.
Maybe the baby's grandparents buried the baby.

RustyNut

ellejay wrote: »

What is his name please

jeremiah locke

Purple Mountain

....... wrote: »

Ive a friend in Dublin who gave birth in 1995 and when she called to the priests house to arrange the baptism he told he he didnt baptise bastards of sluts and she could call next door to see if the young priest would.

She went next door and the young priest agreed to do it alright but she says she wishes she had told yer man to **** off and never baptised her son at all.

Oh my God, is that a direct quote from the priest?!

Annasopra

ellejay wrote: »

What is his name please

Not sure it matters really. Google it if you are that curious.

Wombatman

Ms Hayes said she gave birth in a field and her baby died soon after.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/kerry-babies-compensation-issue-should-be-dealt-with-quickly-1.3358640

Ms Hayes had given birth to a baby boy on the family farm. The baby’s body, later determined to have been stillborn, was found in a field on the farm, where she said that, in a panic, she had left him.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kerry-babies-34-years-on-an-apology-for-joanne-465890.html

So was the baby stillborn or did it die soon after birth? Big difference you would think.

I wonder what the thinking was behind having the baby in a field?

Ms Hayes confirmed she hid the baby in some hay in a nearby field but later hid him in a plastic bag in a pool of water and it was there that gardaí found the baby’s remains on May 2nd, 1984 after her family found the baby’s remains and contacted their solicitor, Mr Mann, who in turn notified gardaí.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/garda%C3%AD-apologise-to-woman-at-centre-of-kerry-babies-case-1.3358040

The 25-year-old initially told gardaí she had miscarried after four months, but later said she had a baby boy, which she delivered while standing up in a field.

The baby appeared to be dead and she panicked and went home, and the following morning she returned to the spot and placed it in a drain, she told them.

Gardaí then extracted confessions from other members of the family that Ms Hayes had beaten and stabbed the baby to death, and that her siblings had disposed of the body at Slea Head, suggesting that the baby found on Caherciveen Beach on April 14, 1984, was hers.

Charges were preferred against Ms Hayes and family members, but in a sensational twist the day after their court appearance, the body of a second baby was found in a hole of water on the Hayes’ farm, bearing out Ms Hayes’ story.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/gardai-to-begin-review-into-kerry-babies-case-822962.html

Snickers Man

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Was there not a case of a woman who died giving birth, in a graveyard I think? I remember that. Different story I guess.

Joanne Lovett. In Granard. More true to say she was a girl. Early teens, as I remember.

Electric Sheep

Snickers Man wrote: »

Joanne Lovett. In Granard. More true to say she was a girl. Early teens, as I remember.

Anne Lovett.

RustyNut

splinter65 wrote: »

That summer was lovely and sunny, the music was great, good times.

One from that era. Seems appropriate.

Day Lewin

Snickers Man wrote: »

Joanne Lovett. In Granard. More true to say she was a girl. Early teens, as I remember.

Her father was present. Her sister committed suicide a year later. Draw your own conclusions.

MrJones1973

One of the most beautiful pictures i recently saw was of joanne hayes and her daughter from early 80s . What a brave woman and family to raise her given the times.
Im surprised it took 34 years to apologise.
The guards are still a law onto themselves. That being said any guard i have had dealings with have been pretty decent

MrJones1973

ellejay wrote: »

Who's to say she buried the baby?
Maybe the father buried the baby.
Maybe the baby's grandparents buried the baby.

I think given the times i or anybody with a shread of decency would not condemn her for that . Especially after the tribunal. My reply is geared to person you were replying to

tayto lover

MrJones1973 wrote: »

One of the most beautiful pictures i recently saw was of joanne hayes and her daughter from early 80s . What a brave woman and family to raise her given the times.
Im surprised it took 34 years to apologise.
The guards are still a law onto themselves. That being said any guard i have had dealings with have been pretty decent

Same here.
I suppose that like the priests of the time they did exactly as they were told.
To do otherwise would have caused them trouble.
I still remember Brian Lenihan on the Late Late Show telling the story of when the politicians were in a pub after hours and a garda came in and started to take names. Lenihan asked the garda if he wanted a pint or a transfer and the entire audience nearly broke their holes laughing.

WHIP IT!

tayto lover wrote: »

Same here.
I suppose that like the priests of the time they did exactly as they were told.
To do otherwise would have caused them trouble.
I still remember Charlie Haughey on the Late Late Show telling the story of when the politicians were in a pub after hours and a garda came in and started to take names. Haughey asked the garda if he wanted a pint or a transfer and the entire audience nearly broke their holes laughing.

You don't remember it all that well. Wasn't Haughey

tayto lover

tayto lover wrote: »

Same here.
I suppose that like the priests of the time they did exactly as they were told.
To do otherwise would have caused them trouble.
I still remember Charlie Haughey on the Late Late Show telling the story of when the politicians were in a pub after hours and a garda came in and started to take names. Haughey asked the garda if he wanted a pint or a transfer and the entire audience nearly broke their holes laughing.

Just for correctness, it Was Brian Lenihan who told the story- but he was drinking with Haughey at the time

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/politicians-behaving-very-badly-30134658.html

splinter65

....... wrote: »

Ive a friend in Dublin who gave birth in 1995 and when she called to the priests house to arrange the baptism he told he he didnt baptise bastards of sluts and she could call next door to see if the young priest would.

She went next door and the young priest agreed to do it alright but she says she wishes she had told yer man to **** off and never baptised her son at all.

But Baptise she did....

Electric Sheep

ellejay wrote: »

Who's to say she buried the baby?
Maybe the father buried the baby.
Maybe the baby's grandparents buried the baby.

The baby wasn't buried.