Posts of Responsibilty

ccazza

The circular for Post Primary schools has finally been published. https://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0003_2018.pdfNot much of an alleviation.

Icsics

ccazza wrote: »

The circular for Post Primary schools has finally been published. https://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0003_2018.pdfNot much of an alleviation.

It's not so much the alleviation thats interesting but the content of this circular & what will be in these posts. It's as if the JMB wrote the circular....!

feedthegoat

An extra 1300 posts, will make a positive impact in many schools.

evolving_doors

Icsics wrote: »

It's not so much the alleviation thats interesting but the content of this circular & what will be in these posts. It's as if the JMB wrote the circular....!

How do you mean?

evolving_doors

I wonder would a school release a teacher to take the post if there's no-one to replace them?

MrJones1973

The vast majority of teachers can do the vast majority of Jobs. Lots of opportunity for brown nosing and divisiveness. Work you did in the past might be disregarded in the Present if you have not kept up with your arse licking!

r93kaey5p2izun

God I dread the cutthroat backstabbing crap we will have to endure over the coming weeks. There won't be enough posts to cover all the people doing year head, TY coordinator, SEN coordinator etc unpaid in my school. And all but a handful have a Masters in management and leadership. It's going to be toxic.

MrJones1973

The old system had one benefit-most teachers eventually got a post usually in their 40s which meant posts turned over within 20 years. This new system means a teacher can lock down a post in their 20s or 30s. This being the public sector you will be stuck with them .
We all know management qualifications are useless in practical terms

MrJones1973

Merrick Prickly User wrote: »

God I dread the cutthroat backstabbing crap we will have to endure over the coming weeks. There won't be enough posts to cover all the people doing year head, TY coordinator, SEN coordinator etc unpaid in my school. And all but a handful have a Masters in management and leadership. It's going to be toxic.

Then perhaps its best to sit back and assume you will get nothing. Make your money elsewhere. If you get it great but no point building a mental torture chamber for yourself.

r93kaey5p2izun

MrJones1973 wrote: »

Then perhaps its best to sit back and assume you will get nothing. Make your money elsewhere. If you get it great but no point building a mental torture chamber for yourself.

I will be resigning my position and leaving teaching at the end of this year. I'm not interested in posts. It won't stop the escalation in people walking all over each other to get ahead before I leave though. It's not only those involved in the competition who have to put up with the fallout!

thefasteriwalk

Merrick Prickly User wrote: »

I will be resigning my position and leaving teaching at the end of this year. I'm not interested in posts. It won't stop the escalation in people walking all over each other to get ahead before I leave though. It's not only those involved in the competition who have to put up with the fallout!

Can I ask why? Are you just fed up? Sadly, I see myself taking this decision in the next few years too.

Does anyone know are the allowances for these new posts the same as for old A and B posts? I'm really hoping it doesn't cause any friction in my place. There certainly aren't enough to go around.

r93kaey5p2izun

thefasteriwalk wrote: »

Can I ask why? Are you just fed up? Sadly, I see myself taking this decision in the next few years too.

Mostly for financial reasons. But also because I feel trapped in a school where I don't see any prospects for myself. And if I have to take a risk on starting from scratch in order to move on, then I feel I might as well give something with better financial potential a shot. I suppose I can always do some subbing if I have to anyway. But I just don't think teaching offers a sufficient standard of living in the Dublin area unless you can rely on a partner or family.

dory

Could anyone hazard a guess what the WTE (Whole Time/Teacher (?) Equivalent) for a school with 800 students would be? Just wondering roughly how many AP posts we should have.

km79

What does holding a POR allowance “on a personal basis “ mean ?
it appears a good few times in the circular

2011abc

‘Whole time equivalents ‘ means the number of teachers that would be in school if there were no part timers /job sharers etc .Its also the pupil teacher ratio divided into number of students in school. ( Principal and some other staff ‘ex quota’)

In a school of around 800 there would be around 6 or 7 A posts /Assistant Principals /AP1s certainly no more than 8

‘On a personal basis ‘ means having a post which could include principalship but due to circumstances like an amalgamation it’s now gone (but they’re still getting paid for it )

And I haven’t even done any aul Management Masters etc !

spurious

1300 posts is roughly 2 per school.
I know in my old school it would barely refill a third of the posts lost through retirement etc..

The spin is strong on this one.

2011abc

Yeah it’s some reflection on his we’ve been duped that giving back something they robbed from us is seen as Manna from heaven .

MrJones1973

spurious wrote: »

1300 posts is roughly 2 per school.
I know in my old school it would barely refill a third of the posts lost through retirement etc..

The spin is strong on this one.

Depending on age demographics it can be more than that. Our school had a lot of retirements last ten years. A lot of B post holders promoted and their posts disappeared. We are down to about 7 posts in total.Thus we are due for our size 700 -about 8 new posts.Other schools not hit so badly. The Ratio of posts to Teachers is proably lower than the boom overall under new criteria.

MrJones1973

Merrick Prickly User wrote: »

Mostly for financial reasons. But also because I feel trapped in a school where I don't see any prospects for myself. And if I have to take a risk on starting from scratch in order to move on, then I feel I might as well give something with better financial potential a shot. I suppose I can always do some subbing if I have to anyway. But I just don't think teaching offers a sufficient standard of living in the Dublin area unless you can rely on a partner or family.

I think this is sad that you have to leave but you are probably right. But its a problem that goes beyond teaching to most sectors. The bloody Government needs to build more houses by whatever means necessary. Vacant site levy doesnt come in until 2019?!

liverpool lad

How are schools dividing out the new POR's in your school? Are you having meetings or are there SIP posts being created?

Icsics

liverpool lad wrote: »

How are schools dividing out the new POR's in your school? Are you having meetings or are there SIP posts being created?

Has to be a review of all posts....interesting times ahead!

ASISEEIT

Schools have become all about PR and therapy. Its all about obesity week or literacy week Its all about dealing with the latest buzz whether its transgender or about helping kids do what they have done for a millennium ie begin first year. Its all PR

In the end has all this PR guff actually improved results? We all know ho chi quinn had his literacy bull-and lo and behold results improved before it had got off the ground (FACT)
Why because kids doing the exam after Quinn took power were told to take the exam seriously this time.

So scramble my darlings for these stipends. There is easier money elsewhere than selling your souls for the latest piece of PR
Bottom line is the teacher who works outside the classroom ,as opposed to inside the classroom will triumph

TheDriver

ASISEEIT wrote: »

Schools have become all about PR and therapy. Its all about obesity week or literacy week Its all about dealing with the latest buzz whether its transgender or about helping kids do what they have done for a millennium ie begin first year. Its all PR

In the end has all this PR guff actually improved results? We all know ho chi quinn had his literacy bull-and lo and behold results improved before it had got off the ground (FACT)
Why because kids doing the exam after Quinn took power were told to take the exam seriously this time.

So scramble my darlings for these stipends. There is easier money elsewhere than selling your souls for the latest piece of PR
Bottom line is the teacher who works outside the classroom ,as opposed to inside the classroom will triumph

Significant parts of issues that some of our students have to deal with are hardly buzz for PR. Education isn't just about results and we ignore all other parts of a child's education at our peril

ASISEEIT

We need year heads to deal with the significant issues. We also need guidance counsellors.
Most teachers are pretty descent to lending a sympathetic ear but we are not doctors or counsellors . A healthy eating week wont change anything. Its all feature article guff.
However there is an unrealistic streak of social engineering going on in dept of education. At present we have to teach kids how to eat ,avoid drugs and have safe sex. Im sure others could add ti the list. All of this assumes you as a teacher have it all together.
I.e you are a paragon of virtue
All of this assumes kids will listen and ignore the messages they get outside of school. One wonders what the hell their parents teach them. What society teaches them.
A lot of the plans drawn up in schools are booker prize entries and not worth the ink they are printed on. So we will no doubt employ a fiction author in a b post for planning
It would be better if posts were designed to support academic achievement rather than more dubious social engineering or PR weeks. Has there ever been any evaluation of these weeks ? Nada
Even when the department fixes on something tangible like literacy it gives no money for books?! George Orwell could not make this up. Kids need to read more pure and simple. Half the new JC curriculum English could be dumped, if they simply gave money for library books and insisted kids read them but hey thats common sense.

Wanderer78

ASISEEIT wrote:

We need year heads to deal with the significant issues. We also need guidance counsellors. However there is an unrealistic streak of social engineering going on in dept of education. At present we have to teach kids how to eat ,avoid drugs and have safe sex. Im sure others could add ti the list. All of this assumes you as a teacher have it all together. I.e you are a paragon of virtue All of this assumes kids will listen and ignore the messages they get outside of school. One wonders what the hell their parents teach them. What society teaches them. A lot of the plans drawn up in schools are booker prize entries and not worth the ink they are printed on. It would be better if posts were designed to support academic achievement rather than more dubious social engineering or PR weeks. Has there ever been any evaluation of these weeks ? Nada

There's a lot more to life than 'academic achievements', kids require support and guidance in life, amongst other things, including academic guidance, but not exclusively. There's too much academia in the world of academia, it's also important to note, some kids are simply not designed for it, and that's ok to, society still requires them, but an educational system that's heavily weighted towards the world of academia, can and does pose a problem for these individuals. We should be creating a system that includes rather than excludes, society requires all to function better, excluding creates dysfunction in society, inclusion reduces dysfunction.

Many parents are in fact highly stressed due to the failures of modern society, including the need for both to work full time etc, our educational system addresses these issues badly, and in some cases not at all, and we wonder why complex social issues occur, and indeed why complex problems such as mental health issues are increasing!

judeboy101

What's the union stance on existing posts being converted to these new ones. My reading of it is that if you have been hired as a year head, then under the new circular your post can be taken from you and you could end up for example as IT, haven't never turned on a computer in your life. I know that in extremis but nothing in circular says that it can't happen as all posts are now competency based not skill based.

ASISEEIT

Wanderer78 wrote: »

There's a lot more to life than 'academic achievements', kids require support and guidance in life, amongst other things, including academic guidance, but not exclusively. There's too much academia in the world of academia, it's also important to note, some kids are simply not designed for it, and that's ok to, society still requires them, but an educational system that's heavily weighted towards the world of academia, can and does pose a problem for these individuals. We should be creating a system that includes rather than excludes, society requires all to function better, excluding creates dysfunction in society, inclusion reduces dysfunction.

Many parents are in fact highly stressed due to the failures of modern society, including the need for both to work full time etc, our educational system addresses these issues badly, and in some cases not at all, and we wonder why complex social issues occur, and indeed why complex problems such as mental health issues are increasing!

I agree academic achievement is not everything in life. A huge amount has been pumped into resource and SNAs. There is a problem with kids who are destined for trades or other careers being forced to sit a leaving cert that really doesnt suit them. We send more kids to college than Germany and many drop out. I never said non academic kids should be ignored but there is a huge middle ground not achieving their potential for various reasons
Their standards are falling and how do we respond -lowering the bar.
There is no evidence that all this social engineering actually works? Can you point to one-just one study that shows this in Ireland? A lot of the material we are forced to pedal is easily accessed by parents online.
The education system is not responsible for the social ills of society. The binge drinking, eating disorders and other mental health issues. Lets not pretend we are che Guevara. We aint social workers or counselors
Kids reaching their full academic potential(even if thats a D) is important for their mental and social health. We need properly funded mental health services for kids not a chapter or two in the SPHE book. We need proper truancy laws and personnel.
We should be evaluating these school social programmes rather than wheeling out yet another tick the box subject. Society needs to get its arse out of box sets,pubs and facebook and faceup to its responsibilities rather than continually passing the buck

TheDriver

judeboy101 wrote: »

What's the union stance on existing posts being converted to these new ones. My reading of it is that if you have been hired as a year head, then under the new circular your post can be taken from you and you could end up for example as IT, haven't never turned on a computer in your life. I know that in extremis but nothing in circular says that it can't happen as all posts are now competency based not skill based.

A school review of posts has always been an option and goes on in most schools.

doc_17

Best practice apparently means that your post wouldn’t be the same for 20/30 years. Otherwise capacity is lost when that person retires.

judeboy101

TheDriver wrote: »

judeboy101 wrote: »

What's the union stance on existing posts being converted to these new ones. My reading of it is that if you have been hired as a year head, then under the new circular your post can be taken from you and you could end up for example as IT, haven't never turned on a computer in your life. I know that in extremis but nothing in circular says that it can't happen as all posts are now competency based not skill based.

A school review of posts has always been an option and goes on in most schools.

But the circular states all posts are competency based, so what's stopping a person who interviewed for a year heads post been told they will now be spending their summer cutting the school pitch?

ethical

Dress it up whatever way you like,it will be still as fcukin corrupt as it has always been.Jobs for the boy,but less work being done,newer,less stable job teachers worked to the bone with feck all follow up support doing more work as well as teaching their classes!

Mardy Bum

Can someone tell me how Bruton is arriving at his 1 in 3 teachers will have a post? Are some schools privileged with extra posts? DEIS, I suppose?

Is this the single most toxic event for an entire staff?

km79

This is a genuine question.
Do people really believe that the old system of next in line getting the next available post was better ?

TheDriver

Review of posts are two fold: needs of the school and consultation with staff. There are unfortunately some schools who will try to make staff do unreasonable things in the same way there are some staff who won't do anything reasonable for their post. I find in the vast majority of schools, posts are well formed, specified and appointed.

Mardy Bum

TheDriver wrote: »

Review of posts are two fold: needs of the school and consultation with staff. There are unfortunately some schools who will try to make staff do unreasonable things in the same way there are some staff who won't do anything reasonable for their post. I find in the vast majority of schools, posts are well formed, specified and appointed.

By something reasonable for their post - do you mean volunteer for a length period of time carrying out said post or simply doing an excellent job in the classroom and helping out from time to time?

TheDriver

Nope, I mean something reasonable for the post as agreed in the school plan for appointed post holders

amacca

Merrick Prickly User wrote: »

God I dread the cutthroat backstabbing crap we will have to endure over the coming weeks. There won't be enough posts to cover all the people doing year head, TY coordinator, SEN coordinator etc unpaid in my school. And all but a handful have a Masters in management and leadership. It's going to be toxic.

Its a pity some people let themselves be duped into free work to the detriment of others...or decide to do it to get ahead and in the process possibly don't even get ahead or stab others directly in the back or all their colleagues indirectly....it reduces working conditions for all.

I wish people just wouldn't do things unpaid if they could help it....its a bad idea especially in the light of how the dept/society/minister for ed has seen fit to treat teachers for a good number of years now

If more held the line on this the Dept might at least be forced to come up with more solutions - maybe acknowledge extra curricular, reduce CP or SS hours to accommodate some of these functions...hell even create more paying positions.

If you can help it and you do this extra work for free you are a mug in the long term imo.....or someone who will do anything for the name on the door to the detriment of others and probably yourself.

ASISEEIT

amacca wrote: »

Its a pity some people let themselves be duped into free work to the detriment of others...or decide to do it to get ahead and in the process possibly don't even get ahead or stab others directly in the back or all their colleagues indirectly....it reduces working conditions for all.

I wish people just wouldn't do things unpaid if they could help it....its a bad idea especially in the light of how the dept/society/minister for ed has seen fit to treat teachers for a good number of years now

If more held the line on this the Dept might at least be forced to come up with more solutions - maybe acknowledge extra curricular, reduce CP or SS hours to accommodate some of these functions...hell even create more paying positions.

If you can help it and you do this extra work for free you are a mug in the long term imo.....or someone who will do anything for the name on the door to the detriment of others and probably yourself.

To be fair people sometimes just enjoy doing things. I took a soccer team for years simply because I enjoyed it and not because I expected reward. However ,there are cases where people expect to get things by doing things that the dept should pay for like IT or Literacy or head of Department. In those cases I see your point
The merit bit is a joke as you have this job for life effectively-if successful- so if you sit back after getting job who will sack you-answer nobody.

This type of stuff has been going on in Community schools for decades. Can people tell me what this type of situation ie "merit" based promotion is like in your school?

km79

km79 wrote: »

This is a genuine question.
Do people really believe that the old system of next in line getting the next available post was better ?

I guess they don’t ......

ASISEEIT

km79 wrote: »

This is a genuine question.
Do people really believe that the old system of next in line getting the next available post was better ?

The old system had a few advantages . Firstly everyone got a post eventually. Nobody retired without one or rarely did. Secondly it avoided back stabbing and arse licking.
There were cases of people doing sweet F all or not being suitable for certain jobs but that was fault of management ,dept and unions for not resolving issue but by and large people did what they were asked to do.
This new system will mean post holders having the job for decades which as i have already pointed out means that once they get it they can sit back and relax. A real merit system would limit their tenure. So its all bull in the end

km79

ASISEEIT wrote: »

This new system will mean post holders having the job for decades which as i have already pointed out means that once they get it they can sit back and relax. A real merit system would limit their tenure. So its all bull in the end

The old system also meant people were in a post for decades ?
And there was ZERO accountability. None.
Now at least in theory there is

ASISEEIT

km79 wrote: »

The old system also meant people were in a post for decades ?
And there was ZERO accountability. None.
Now at least in theory there is

In most schools people got a post . Thats the truth. You would definitely get one under old system. Will you get one now? If you believe an annual report is accountable then you are in for a shock. Booker prize material . Most people i knew with posts did a good job. Bottom line is while schools are thankfully more inclusive places -standards are falling and no boot is being put into students to improve. Thus these new posts wont improve your schools discipline or results. But your paperwork will be done !

There are young people who definitely deserve to be rewarded over some layabouts who never did a tap but most teachers do their best. Depends on their stage of life. I think a lot of women with young kids wont go for posts-because they are at a stage where home is more important. Anyway all the best folks-watch yer backs!

liverpool lad

Hi. Regarding the new post structure - how are the interviews being conducted in different schools? We have been told that the advertisement will merely say "AP1" or "AP11" but the post you would be going for would not be noted on the job advertisement. The successful candidates at either A1 ir A2 level will then be discussed by management and the roles, based on the needs of the school, assigned on that basis?

It seems a bit bizarre that you'd apply for a post, not knowing what exact post you were going for and end up with the possibility of securing a post you had no interest or experience in due to a lack of people going / showing leadership or interest in that role itself? It seems like a way to deter people applying and getting "yes" people who will do anything into the posts and chop and change them year after year.

Does anyone have any information on this? I've read the circular and it doesn't say that it has to be or doesn't have to be done in this way, but just intrigued as to what other school principals are doing.

Looking forward to hearing all,

Thanks

ASISEEIT

liverpool lad wrote: »

Hi. Regarding the new post structure - how are the interviews being conducted in different schools? We have been told that the advertisement will merely say "AP1" or "AP11" but the post you would be going for would not be noted on the job advertisement. The successful candidates at either A1 ir A2 level will then be discussed by management and the roles, based on the needs of the school, assigned on that basis?

It seems a bit bizarre that you'd apply for a post, not knowing what exact post you were going for and end up with the possibility of securing a post you had no interest or experience in due to a lack of people going / showing leadership or interest in that role itself? It seems like a way to deter people applying and getting "yes" people who will do anything into the posts and chop and change them year after year.

Does anyone have any information on this? I've read the circular and it doesn't say that it has to be or doesn't have to be done in this way, but just intrigued as to what other school principals are doing.

Looking forward to hearing all,

Thanks

I think school will first decide on what it needs and then interview-NOT the other way round which your post implied. I think the jobs will be broad ranging. On the one hand it avoids the creation of a job to fit a particular lick arse but on the other hand its quite vague. Its all about leadership baby. Have you shown it? Will you have more in the future. Of course those that simply did their main job-teaching-well-will probably be over looked. Who knows. I find it incredible the cockiness of some 30 year olds who think its a guarantee they will get one. Anybody around long enough-knows you get screwed a few times in a career. Part of life

Mardy Bum

liverpool lad wrote: »

Hi. Regarding the new post structure - how are the interviews being conducted in different schools? We have been told that the advertisement will merely say "AP1" or "AP11" but the post you would be going for would not be noted on the job advertisement. The successful candidates at either A1 ir A2 level will then be discussed by management and the roles, based on the needs of the school, assigned on that basis?

It seems a bit bizarre that you'd apply for a post, not knowing what exact post you were going for and end up with the possibility of securing a post you had no interest or experience in due to a lack of people going / showing leadership or interest in that role itself? It seems like a way to deter people applying and getting "yes" people who will do anything into the posts and chop and change them year after year.

Does anyone have any information on this? I've read the circular and it doesn't say that it has to be or doesn't have to be done in this way, but just intrigued as to what other school principals are doing.

Looking forward to hearing all,

Thanks

There should be a whole staff review of posts before the interviews but some principals don't trust their staff it seems.

liverpool lad

Mardy Bum wrote: »

There should be a whole staff review of posts before the interviews but some principals don't trust their staff it seems.

A list of needs was created at a staff meeting and that has gone back to management. I'm sure finalised list of the current needs of the school will be displayed but it still seems bizarre to me they will identify the lists - I presume state which of those will be at A1 or A2 level and then you will be put through an interview and then your fate will be decided at the end of the process.

Is there even any duty or onus put on the school to state what exact positions will be under A1 and A2 level prior to the interview? I can't understand why it isn't clearly going to be stated that eg. "ICT coordinator" - A2 level / Sports coordinator - A2 level / Year Head - A1 level etc.

liverpool lad

ASISEEIT wrote: »

I think school will first decide on what it needs and then interview-NOT the other way round which your post implied. I think the jobs will be broad ranging. On the one hand it avoids the creation of a job to fit a particular lick arse but on the other hand its quite vague. Its all about leadership baby. Have you shown it? Will you have more in the future. Of course those that simply did their main job-teaching-well-will probably be over looked. Who knows. I find it incredible the cockiness of some 30 year olds who think its a guarantee they will get one. Anybody around long enough-knows you get screwed a few times in a career. Part of life

Schools deciding the needs and then interviews is key for sure, but why once the needs are identified would it not make more sense (with STAFF in mind) to let staff members apply for a post with the actual role and responsibility laid out beforehand - different staff members have different interests and skillsets and surely management would want to assess their leadership skills and abilities in regards to the post they are applying for, and if successful will be undertaking in the school. A post in SSE is very different to a year head post / ICT post and someone who has a huge interest in ICT may have no desire to be involved in the SSE process of a school yet get offered this post following a general interview??

Mainly just wondering if this is the way it will be rolled out in all schools

km79

liverpool lad wrote: »

Schools deciding the needs and then interviews is key for sure, but why once the needs are identified would it not make more sense (with STAFF in mind) to let staff members apply for a post with the actual role and responsibility laid out beforehand - different staff members have different interests and skillsets and surely management would want to assess their leadership skills and abilities in regards to the post they are applying for, and if successful will be undertaking in the school. A post in SSE is very different to a year head post / ICT post and someone who has a huge interest in ICT may have no desire to be involved in the SSE process of a school yet get offered this post following a general interview??

Mainly just wondering if this is the way it will be rolled out in all schools

As outlined in the circular when you get any post now you have to be able to do a range of duties . You can’t pick and choose which post you would like and stay in it for life
This is to help develop a wide range of skills and ensure school is not left with a deficit when postholder retires.
If people are unwilling to do this I guess they shouldn’t apply

pandoraj09

It's actually illegal to advertise a job without a job description...We're putting together a POR review committee to look at the results from the staff meeting about the needs of the school. Are other schools doing this? If so, how did you decide who is on the committee? This is a bone of contention in our staff room at the moment.

r93kaey5p2izun

I don't see how this will be good for schools. In my school there is just one person who is suitably qualified and experienced to be the SEN coordinator - a crucial position in a school like mine (second only to the principal I'd say). This person would not be a good year head or TY coordinator though. They would be totally unsuitable. The notion they should not be given a post to be SEN coordinator just because they aren't the most versatile in terms of general management "just in case" is nonsense I think, and if that's the way it goes then it's the students who will lose out.

Mardy Bum

Merrick Prickly User wrote: »

I don't see how this will be good for schools. In my school there is just one person who is suitably qualified and experienced to be the SEN coordinator - a crucial position in a school like mine (second only to the principal I'd say). This person would not be a good year head or TY coordinator though. They would be totally unsuitable. The notion they should not be given a post to be SEN coordinator just because they aren't the most versatile in terms of general management "just in case" is nonsense I think, and if that's the way it goes then it's the students who will lose out.

Sen coordinator should be spread across a range of people to mitigate the need to make it a post.