Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread III

kilns

ELM327 wrote: »

kilns wrote: »

Are you stating the current President of the United States is not a serial liar?

He's a populist. He plays to his voter base. That voter base loved the tears of the liberals when their hero sanders lost to hillary who then lost to Trump.


Show me an honest politician and I'll show you a dry sea, an airbourne fish and a circular square.

The question was are you stating that the President of United States is not a serial liar.  Its a simple yes or no

ELM327

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

So you'll accept a POTUS who is being blackmailed by a foreign government, who had engaged in electoral fraud, engaged in financial fraud and who is a racist. Okay.

According to the anti-trump brigade, the US currently have accepted a president engaging in all of the above.

kilns wrote: »

The question was are you stating that the President of United States is not a serial liar. Its a simple yes or no

I am stating that.
He's not a serial liar.
No doubt now you will provide a proliferation of instances where Trump changed his mind on a myriad of scenarios.

Captain Obvious

ELM327 wrote: »

According to the anti-trump brigade, the US currently have accepted a president engaging in all of the above.

And you are ok with it.

ELM327 wrote: »

I am stating that.
He's not a serial liar.
No doubt now you will provide a proliferation of instances where Trump changed his mind on a myriad of scenarios.

No, he doesn't change his mind, he straight up lies. Makes things up. Fabricates facts.

Leroy42

ELM327 wrote: »

According to the anti-trump brigade, the US currently have accepted a president engaging in all of the above.



I am stating that.
He's not a serial liar.
No doubt now you will provide a proliferation of instances where Trump changed his mind on a myriad of scenarios.

It is not about changing his mind. Changing your mind is "I think the weather will be good tomorrow because it is hot today" and then "it will be raining tomorrow because they are clouds now"

Lying is completely different. You must know the difference.

You complain about credibility yet come out with lines like that!

irishash

ELM327 wrote: »

No doubt now you will provide a proliferation of instances where Trump changed his mind on a myriad of scenarios.

Why would anybody do that. Stating something and then changing your mind and saying something else is not lying.

Lying is saying Reagan never won Wisconsin, when Reagan did win Wisconsin. Lying is saying you are a billionaire, when you are not (and forced to admit to same in front of a judge when you are giving a deposition while suing the author of a book that stated you were not a billionaire).

kilns

ELM327 wrote: »

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

So you'll accept a POTUS who is being blackmailed by a foreign government, who had engaged in electoral fraud, engaged in financial fraud and who is a racist. Okay.

According to the anti-trump brigade, the US currently have accepted a president engaging in all of the above.

kilns wrote: »

The question was are you stating that the President of United States is not a serial liar.  Its a simple yes or no

I am stating that.
He's not a serial liar.
No doubt now you will provide a proliferation of instances where Trump changed his mind on a myriad of scenarios.

Ok It is good to know where you stand on this topic.  It is a proven fact he has lied many many times and you just sum up the people on his side of the fence, where he can do no wrong.  If those tapes with Cohen has Trump suggesting to murder someone, it would be denied by that group.  But thats ok, this side has now backed this guy and they need to stick with him no matter what, if they climb down now it will be untold damage to them for years to come.
On the other far side of that fence, there are people who before he even does something that have decided he has done something wrong.
The problem is there is a tiny minority in the US who hold the middle ground now and can acknowledge he is an unstable liar who is out of his depth but has also done some ok things in the back ground

pixelburp

ELM327 wrote: »

I am stating that.
He's not a serial liar.
No doubt now you will provide a proliferation of instances where Trump changed his mind on a myriad of scenarios.

Yes, he is a serial liar, and aside from the poltifacts link that charts his demonstrable lies, just to take a small sample you have cases where he lies about his own stance within days of the original claim:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/1/17523318/trump-goodlatte-bill-twitter-lie

Within 3 days he denied supporting something an earlier tweet clearly shows. This was not an isolated case, this is part for the course from a man whose tactic is to simply shotgun thoughts, then deny he ever said XYZ. This isn't about changing ones mind, these are clear cases of blatant lies.

ELM327

Leroy42 wrote: »

It is not about changing his mind. Changing your mind is "I think the weather will be good tomorrow because it is hot today" and then "it will be raining tomorrow because they are clouds now"

Lying is completely different. You must know the difference.

You complain about credibility yet come out with lines like that!

I never used the word credibility, except when you and others posted that I had no credibility here. And I retorted that I couldn't care less in this liberal echo chamber. I don't want your credibility.

kilns wrote: »

Ok It is good to know where you stand on this topic. It is a proven fact he has lied many many times and you just sum up the people on his side of the fence, where he can do no wrong. If those tapes with Cohen has Trump suggesting to murder someone, it would be denied by that group. But thats ok, this side has now backed this guy and they need to stick with him no matter what, if they climb down now it will be untold damage to them for years to come.
On the other far side of that fence, there are people who before he even does something that have decided he has done something wrong.
The problem is there is a tiny minority in the US who hold the middle ground now and can acknowledge he is an unstable liar who is out of his depth but has also done some ok things in the back ground

Care to advance any?

Leroy42

ELM327 wrote: »

Care to advance any?

Stormy Daniels.

Trump Jr response to the meeting news.

Claiming Reagan didn't win Wisconsin.

Do you want me to go on?

everlast75

If someone doesn't have a problem with Trump being a racist, why on earth would you think they would have a problem with him being a liar, even if you could convince him/her that Trump is a liar.

What I find interesting is that it differentiates his supporters into being
1) those that will believe what he says, and
2) those that simply don't care whether its true or not.

If he ticks a box on their agenda, then that's good enough for them. They will stomach whatever else comes with.

You're not going to convince them with facts. Facts are either interchangeable, depending on who said what and when, or they simply don't give a sh1t.

Trump is probably winding up all those people that were affronted by the supporter's racism, and that is what matters. Anything else is just gravy.

kilns

ELM327 wrote: »

Leroy42 wrote: »

It is not about changing his mind.  Changing your mind is "I think the weather will be good tomorrow because it is hot today" and then "it will be raining tomorrow because they are clouds now"

Lying is completely different.  You must know the difference.

You complain about credibility yet come out with lines like that!

I never used the word credibility, except when you and others posted  that I had no credibility here. And I retorted that I couldn't care less in this liberal echo chamber. I don't want your credibility.

kilns wrote: »

Ok It is good to know where you stand on this topic.  It is a proven fact he has lied many many times and you just sum up the people on his side of the fence, where he can do no wrong.  If those tapes with Cohen has Trump suggesting to murder someone, it would be denied by that group.  But thats ok, this side has now backed this guy and they need to stick with him no matter what, if they climb down now it will be untold damage to them for years to come.
On the other far side of that fence, there are people who before he even does something that have decided he has done something wrong.
The problem is there is a tiny minority in the US who hold the middle ground now and can acknowledge he is an unstable liar who is out of his depth but has also done some ok things in the back ground

Care to advance any?

You can accept he is a liar and still support him you know

ELM327

Leroy42 wrote: »

Stormy Daniels.

Trump Jr response to the meeting news.

Claiming Reagan didn't win Wisconsin.

Do you want me to go on?

Stormy Daniels. - No one cares about some washed up ex porn star

Trump Jr response to the meeting news. - No idea what this is


Claiming Reagan didn't win Wisconsin. - He mixed up wisconsin with minnesota
Here's a link from well known democrat leaning The Hill http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/394672-trump-incorrectly-says-reagan-didnt-win-wisconsin

Leroy42

ELM327 wrote: »

Stormy Daniels. - No one cares about some washed up ex porn star

Trump Jr response to the meeting news. - No idea what this is


Claiming Reagan didn't win Wisconsin. - He mixed up wisconsin with minnesota
Here's a link from well known democrat leaning The Hill http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/394672-trump-incorrectly-says-reagan-didnt-win-wisconsin

You asked for an example, and I provided you one and you say you don't care. Why ask for an example then?

Trump Jr meeting with Russians, in Trump tower to try to obtain illegally obtain intel on HC. Trump prepared the statement himself, which turn out to full of lies

Wisconsin . He mixed it up? Fair enough. Can you show me where is corrected the record and admitted the mistake?

WinnyThePoo

I don't think there is any point in engaging 'I don't care crowd' . Leave them to their apathy.

Hurrache

I haven't seen his favourite lie being mentioned yet, he had the biggest inauguration crowd ever!

kilns

ELM327 wrote: »

Leroy42 wrote: »

Stormy Daniels.

Trump Jr response to the meeting news.

Claiming Reagan didn't win Wisconsin.

Do you want me to go on?

Stormy Daniels. - No one cares about some washed up ex porn star

Trump Jr response to the meeting news. - No idea what this is


Claiming Reagan didn't win Wisconsin. - He mixed up wisconsin with minnesota
Here's a link from well known democrat leaning The Hill http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/394672-trump-incorrectly-says-reagan-didnt-win-wisconsin

Maybe Melania cares about Stormy.......

Captain Obvious

kilns wrote: »

Maybe Melania cares about Stormy.......

I'm sure her son will when he is older.

Kiith

ELM327 wrote: »

Care to advance any?

Here's a list of 2029 times he said false statements (either outright lies, or lies due to ignorance). Is that enough for you?

http://projects.thestar.com/donald-trump-fact-check/

If even 1/4 of these are true, that's still way too many times he's outright lied. Though I'm sure you'll pick out one or two examples that aren't that bad, and use it as a reason to ignore the absolutely awful things he has said. Or talk about how some of these are just fake news, or deep state conspiracies or whatever other ridiculous excuse you can come up with for the constant "alternative truth's" that come out of Trump's mouth.

everlast75

Kiith wrote: »

Here's a list of 2029 times he said false statements (either outright lies, or lies due to ignorance). Is that enough for you? If even 1/4 of these are true, that's still way too many times he's outright lied.

http://projects.thestar.com/donald-trump-fact-check/

Though I'm sure his direct quotes in some of these are just fake news, or deep state conspiracies or whatever other ridiculous excuse you can come up with for the constant "alternative truth's" that come out of Trump's mouth.

Don't bother.

Trump has lied umpteen times today on twitter.

His supporters don't care.

Captain Obvious

He's on quite the tirade today

Leroy42

ELM327 wrote: »

I never used the word credibility, except when you and others posted that I had no credibility here. And I retorted that I couldn't care less in this liberal echo chamber. I don't want your credibility.

But without any credibility why would you even bother to post? as we don't know each other, we can only judge the posts on what they say and past history.

If you are admitting that lying doesn't matter, fraud doesn't matter, corruption doesn't matter and you don't care if people believe you are not, why are you surprised that people don't believe you?

You call it an echo chamber, yet people have engaged with you time and time again, yet every time you produce no evidence and won't even listen to the facts, making up ideas like "what he really meant to say was".

I get why someone would want to support Trump, but cannot understand why you think it worthwhile to give up any sense of worth just to help him.

And sure, you will pass it off as simply just this thread, or boards or even the internet, but then you would have to be of the view that you behave completely differently in real life. I would find that very hard to believe.

Quin_Dub

ELM327 wrote: »

I never used the word credibility, except when you and others posted that I had no credibility here. And I retorted that I couldn't care less in this liberal echo chamber. I don't want your credibility.





Care to advance any?

Leroy42 wrote: »

Stormy Daniels.

Trump Jr response to the meeting news.

Claiming Reagan didn't win Wisconsin.

Do you want me to go on?

Some samples from Politifact..

Trump Statement - "We had a massive landslide victory in the Electoral College"

Reality - His win was in the bottom quartile of Presidential wins.

Trump Statement - "Many countries (in NATO) owe us a tremendous amount of money for many years back, where they’re delinquent, as far as I’m concerned, because the United States has had to pay for them."

Reality - No they don't , nobody "owes" anybody anything..A deliberate lie to get his way


Trump Statement - "I have watched ICE liberate towns from the grasp of MS-13."

Reality - No , No he hasn't - ever , anywhere

Trump Statement - Says Wisconsin "hadn’t been won by a Republican since Dwight D. Eisenhower, in 1952. And I won Wisconsin. … Ronald Reagan, remember, Wisconsin was the state that Ronald Reagan did not win."

Reality - No , not at all..They've won it 6 times , twice each by Reagan ,Nixon and Eisenhower.

Trump Statement - "Crime in Germany is way up."

Reality - Crime in Germany is at a 30 year low.

Trump Statement - "We got $6 billion for opioid and getting rid of that scourge that’s taking over our country. And the numbers are way down."

Reality - No - Deaths from Opioids are up - "For all opioids, including illegal and prescription drugs, deaths were up 15 percent. For the synthetic opioids alone, such as fentanyl, deaths were up 57 percent."

So - He's either a pathological liar or a misinformed idiot , there isn't a 3rd option here that would make him look good.

rossie1977

Trump is not a populist. He might pretend to be one but all his policies so far have nothing to do with populism. His cabinet is filled with billionaires. His tax cuts are aimed at benefitting huge corporations and the top 1% wealthiest individuals in the US. He tried to remove socialized healthcare which would have had a devastating effect especially in the poorer southern/midwestern states.

Like many authoritarian leaders from Gaddafi to Kim to Putin he uses fake populism to build and maintain support.

Midlife

Why do Irish people bother so much to post in a forum about an American president?

I think many of the people in here are value driven.

For many, Trump's chauvinism, sexism, racism and just plain bad manners offends our values and we care because we don't like the leader of the free world eschewing such values.

Others love it, their racism, sexism, nationalism and all the stuff those libtards told them was wrong is actually fine now, plus they have a champion. White privilege is a myth. The gender pay gap is a misunderstanding of the facts. Etc Etc.

Trump appeals to many people because he legitimises the awful parts of themselves. And he owns off the libtards which they really love.

I mean you have people pretty much saying they have racist driven values on a politics forum. The far right is mainstream again.

everlast75

Captain Obvious wrote: »

He's on quite the tirade today

He has tweeted today re Obama, Crooked Hilary, Iran, Fox and Friends, steele dossier four times, Putin and north Korea and managed to lie in all of them.

An utter joke of a man.

Townton

Oafley Jones wrote: »

I’m still surprised that the politics forum allows new members to post. I’d always thought that a couple months wait (along with a post count of 100 in other areas) would cut down on the sock puppets.

You might be referring to me in which cases feel free to point out whatever it is you taking issue with and I will try and answer. Don't think I have been in any way unreasonable in what I have said pretty sure I haven't insulted anyone, if I have please point it out and I will apologise and withdraw the comment

irishash

Townton wrote: »

You might be referring to me in which cases feel free to point out whatever it is you taking issue with and I will try and answer. Don't think I have been in any way unreasonable in what I have said pretty sure I haven't insulted anyone, if I have please point it out and I will apologise and withdraw the comment

Without even comparing you to other posters, I have no issue with any posts you have made. You have stated facts, given opinion and stayed away from insults. Well done in a thread like this. Long may it continue.

Leroy42

Midlife wrote: »

Why do Irish people bother so much to post in a forum about an American president?

I can't comment on others but for myself it "bothers" me for a number of reasons.

Politics. I take a interest in politics, particularly Ireland, the UK and USA. Trump is significantly different than the politics I was used to so there is a certain interest in trying to understand it.

Values. Yes values makes a difference. I have seen much changing of values over my lifetime, with now a far more (but still lots more to do) equality and openness across much of the Western world. Trump seems to fly in the face of that.

Information. I find it very interesting that in an age that almost every person (certainly in the West) has access to more information that perhaps all previous people had access to combined, that we seem to moving away from facts. IS it information overload? Are religions really way ahead of the game when they realised that people don't really want answers, they simply don't want to think about the question. Not really a Trump thing per se.

Fear of it spreading. Part of the interest is the fear of the reasons behind the success of Trump will spread. We currently have Brexit, which appears to match a lot of the Trump instance ,lack of info, people not caring about actual facts, choosing one side and never moving etc.

US place in the world. I would rather that Trump didn't take up so much bandwidth, we certainly care a lot less of people like Duerte, Chavez etc, simply because their potential impact on the world is much less. Trump could start of nuclear attack at any time. That is concerning

Professor Moriarty

ELM327 wrote: »

According to the anti-trump brigade, the US currently have accepted a president engaging in all of the above.

Yes. Trump, the POTUS, is a misogynistic, racist, fraudulent, blackmailed, lying cheat.

Such is the character of the man they elected. Just because people vote for him doesn't stop him being an odious manchild.

Townton

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

It's time to admit that the men who wrote and signed the Constitution had no clue what the USA would become and/or how large it would be. This idea that we even remotely know what the framers intended is ridiculous.

Read the articles and if you are not sure what the framers intended then I would suggest you might find the federalist papers quite interesting. They are a series of publications where to put it simply those that wrote the constitution then wrote these papers to explain their reasoning. They are not law by any means and its obviously the SC that ultimately interpretates the constitution but they have been referred to in a number of judgments and by academics ect. So if your interested would definitely recommend them. They actually spend quite a lot of time explaining why the various checks and balances likerole of Congress the president and the SC as well as issues like the decentralisation of power is important. Given the time we are in can't help but agree with them.