Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

Nighttime22

I offer real fact base reason's as to why Ireland shouldn't waste billions on fighter jets.

The lads here cant offer up any realistic rationale or proven situations in which we have desperately required the use of modern fighter jets that we absolutely cant live without em.

The challenge has been put out to all the lifers here:

SGT.Biko

Labre

dohville

bear1

Not one of em can contest what im saying in a factual manner all they have is petty insults and avoidance which speaks volumes.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882224#Comment_119882224

Will it always be that way? I don't think that we need many but a few to at least show our presence to those coming into our airspace without permission and the ability to intercept a rogue airliner.

Nighttime22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882298#Comment_119882298

The US has been spending billions and billions on air defense and even they couldn't stop a rouge airliner, at what point do we know its a rogue airliner? at what point do we decide to shoot it down even if we have jets? Irelands a small country the timeframe to make the decisions to kill everyone on board the airliner because they aren't communicating or responding...what if there communications are down and we decide to kill 100s of people when there was no terrorist? who makes that call?

If we had the best Fighter Jets in the world I don't think we could stop that scenario taking place so i dont think its a strong enough reason to invest billions into Fighter Jets.

To answer your orignal question i Think it will always be that way between our geographical location and the relations we have with other countries i would find it very hard to find a nation that would be hell bent on attacking us we are a very friendly and reasonable nation that gets along very well with other nations we dont really have realistic threats if we are being totally honest nor will we with the way we conduct ourselves as a nation.

Dohvolle

My house has never been broken into. But I still lock the doors when I'm away.

My house has never gone on fire, but I'm still glad there is a fire brigade not too far away.

purplepanda

No one has suggested that Ireland should spend "billions" on "fighter jets", there are no such suggestions in the recent Defence Commission report either. You obviously haven't read any of the previous proposals regarding this issue nor the DC report for the financial costs.

As for potential rogue hijacked airliners / other aircraft refusing to communicate with Irish air traffic control, what do you suggest, let the British government / military make the decision instead, because their actions could potentially be fully against Irish interests. Ireland should be making the ultimate decision as it would affect Ireland. A sovereign nation state of Ireland's population & income in any other part of Europe has the exact same responsibility.

If you are happy with Britain continuing to defend Irish airspace carry on so. But don't claim to be pacifist, non aligned or neutral, in the next sentence.

Your last paragraph is totally naive, it is the duty of a sovereign nation to defend itself against all identified potential threats. If you don't want to spend much money actually doing this you could join a military alliance for less financial outlay such as Iceland has done. Being non aligned or neutral works out as more defence spending, that is if you actually want to defend the nation & pay for Ireland's overseas United Nations missions.

If you are a pacifist & don't believe Ireland should have any military / or advocate much reduced or very limited defence capability, why are you then suggesting that Ireland can rely on others, such as the USA, UK & EU partners, that should do it for free?

mupper2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882603#Comment_119882603

Huh...next you'll be saying you have house and car insurance like some sort of weirdo!

RavenP

There are two arguments that tend to be made by people who believe Ireland should not have any significant defence capability.

1. That military capacity and military actions are morally unjustifiable and that Ireland should only have some kind of gendarmerie.
2. Ireland has few threats.
3. That Ireland has not the capacity to defend itself because it is too poor or too small.

The first point is, in one sense, true. Aggressive military actions are morally unjustifiable. The war in Ukraine is an example of a morally unjustifiable invasion. The US invasion of Iraq is another example. Defensive military actions are not immoral, however. The UK probably was morally justified in the Falklands, and I think only a small minority would sugest that the Ukraine has no right to resist the Russian invasion.

The second point, that Ireland has no threats, has been true for much of the 20th and early 21st centuries. The Irish Army was scaled back considerably in the 30s when the threat of war with the UK was no longer considered imminent. Also in the early 60s, when the cold war looked like it was unlikely to become hot, the Irish military was slashed its capacity to reflect this. Likewise in the post troubles period the Defence Forces were able to significantly scaled back. In between these periods, however, there were episodes of threat. The Army underwent an enormous expansion in the early 40s, in response to the threat of German (or rarely stated possible British) invasion. By 1942 the British Army were so impressed by the Irish army's buildup, that they considered Ireland to be at no risk of succumbing to any likely German invasion! A less significant military buildup occurred post-1969, when the troubles in the north caught Ireland by surprise. We are entering a new era however. There are credible threats on the horizon. The world is destabilising, not just Russia, our nearest neighbour has been going through an existential crisis. A breakup of the UK and even internal unrest, even conflict in Britain, is not impossible. Problems can spill over. Also in an international east-west conflict Ireland is a target, even as a neutral state. Ireland is a valuable hub for data, high value IT services, world class manufacturing. Simply put, Ireland is a very important cog in the western machine and if any wide scale European or world war broke out Ireland would be on any target list for a state actor. In fact, because of its relative lack of defence, Ireland may be an easy target, and as a non-NATO member, a small act of agression, such as destroying data cables for instance, may not occasion a NATO military response, but have a huge economic effect. A severing of Ireland's data cables would cost many years defence spending in repairs and lost revenue, jobs etc. And before anyone thinks that this is all targeted at Russia, Ireland has has had its data cables interfered with before, during the Brexit negotiations when the Irish Navy found that a device to intercept Irish diplomatic communications had been placed on a cable in the Irish sea. Irish military intelligence, quietly, believes a "five eyes" power to be responsible.

Likewise the air to the west of Ireland is regularly being flown through by foreign militaries. NATO forces usually let Irish ATC know of their passage through the Irish controlled region, but other forces, namely the VVS, do not. This is not just a military risk, but is a risk to air transport. These aircraft do not fly with transponders on, they do not follow air traffic controllers. They need to be detected and escorted as much for health and safety of air travel as much as anything else. Again these flights have only appeared skirting Ireland in the last few years. There was no risk of this 20 years ago.

Thirdly, The idea that Ireland is too small or too poor is utter nonsense. Ireland is in fact geographically lucky. It is relatively easy to defend, but it must have some credible defence. It does not need to be a great lion, because even a lion will not tackle a little hedgehog, it is just not worth the trouble. That is all Ireland has to achieve, becoe a hedgehog. With regard to the Air Corps, two squadrons of 4th Gen fighters, the three sets of pilots per plane, hangers, radars, over their life will only cost a few hundred million per annum, it is actually money well spent, and the good will from our neighbours , who will see Ireland stepping up to the plate, will be worth the investment. It would also give Ireland a credible air defence, they could be used in UN missions also (UN is increasingly wanting air forces), and be a diplomatic multiplier for Ireland's international posture.

Nighttime22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882603#Comment_119882603

Just a genius here lmao

I could potential be struck by lightning i should never leave the house.

Planet Earth could be hit by an asteroid i shouldn't go to work tomorrow.

Your strawman attempts are very comparable to what we are discussing and certainly add great depth...🤣🙄

Nighttime22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882630#Comment_119882630

How much should we spend then? do you realize how much these things cost? then you have maintenance, training programs, munitions, facilities all the supporting equipment ect And all for what ? to play a game we cant win? Any one capable of hypothetically invading us is a superpower and we wouldn't be able to compete with them anyway using inferiors second hand outdated jets we bought off them in the first place.

Overall it is just a stupid endeavor.

We could afford to not buy any jets or join any alliance and we would be perfectly fine and that's just the reality of it and its backed up factually too since its what we've been doing for decades and we have never had an incident ever... but now all of a sudden we need all these expensive fighter jets to fight phantom threats and soothe the paranoia of a commission that is claiming we are under severe threat with no actually basis for this in fact or reality.

Nighttime22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882771#Comment_119882771

Its almost like....house fire's and flood damage and car crashes occur regularly and have done for decades... and then its almost like Ireland getting invaded by the likes of Russia never happens.... hmmm strange indeed isn't it? its almost as if the they aren't comparable.. and what you are saying is nonsensical.

I'm literally laughing out loud at the stupid logic but what makes it funnier is the smugness that you think your right 🤣

Nighttime22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882774#Comment_119882774

So wait let me get this straight and correct me if im wrong.

Britain is going to implode and fight itself and we should have a military because it will somehow spill over into Ireland.???

Also no one is going to help defend us... but we are an important cog in the western machine in a conflict in an west vs east scenario.. one could argue that is exactly why we would be highly defended.??

But in the scenario that either came true the level of build up that it would require for us to be able to consistently sustain a defense against nations that can attack us isn't feasible its not as simple as "here paddy there's a gun now defend" where are we getting munitions from?? explain the supply chain, explain how big the army will be ?

You sound like a captain price wannabe if im honest what you on about "a great lion wont attack a hedgehog", Christ above man come back to reality and put the war fantasies away.

Sgt. Bilko 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882825#Comment_119882825

“Any one capable of hypothetically invading us is a superpower and we wouldn't be able to compete with them anyway using inferiors second hand outdated jets we bought off them in the first place’’

I’d say you are great at defending yourself.

Nighttime22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882945#Comment_119882945

Man up and state your opinion on the actual topic rather than taking pot shots at posters that disagree with you.

purplepanda

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882825#Comment_119882825

Why should I repeat what others have already costed in great detail contained in this thread previously, also including the Defence Commission which consisted of military experts from home & abroad? If you haven't managed to read the suggestions given & not noticed the media reports over the last years, that's not my issue.

Suggesting that a €billion is to be spent on squadrons of fighter jets is your fantasy & nobody else's.

You are just on here to abuse other posters & have no serious proposals nor debating skills to make regarding defence & military expenditure.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882923#Comment_119882923

Britain is still the most likely agressor especially if it becomes destabilized. I'm sure we would have support from some foreign power in this situation but we would have to defend ourselves first and a few modern jets would be a part of this initially. The key is to make it not worth any enemy's while. Back to the aircraft there is no need to spend billions a few hundred million for a few interceptors to shoo off intruders or rogue aircraft. I know the US didn't stop all the airliners (one may have been shot down) but for some reason they weren't expecting an attack of this type. We now know better. As for who makes that call that would have to be decided by the proper authorities using hopefully a prearranged protocol and an actual aircraft flying alongside could make direct contact with the suspect aircraft.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882771#Comment_119882771

Its worse than that. I have "Health" insurance.

Nighttime22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883118#Comment_119883118

I am literally uncontested on here in terms of factual debate, if you want to be factually correct i suggest you go back thru the posts and you will notice a select group of posters that have been on this thread 5 years plus that infact started attacking me as soon as i said that Fighter jets arent in fact needed in this country.

Of course they have no thoughts of there own and just regurgitate that "commission said so" to which i retorted it as nonsense and sited several key facts to back my points.

Notable Key facts include.

1) Irelands Geographical Location and proximity to nations with good ties and strong militaries that would without doubt aid us in the extremely unlikely event we were invaded.

2) The futility of us shooting down a Russian aircraft that refused to obey a weak, underfunded outdated token irish airforce.

3) Our inability to cope with the response from countries like Russia if we did in fact use Fighter Jets to shoot down there aircraft thus leading to the point why even have them in the first place?

4) The billions the program would cost and it would unless you think the jets will pay for themselves and in there spare time build there own facilities, radar, buy munitions and train pilots.

5) Our Global presence and the fact we conduct ourselves well and are well liked by other nations, no need for fancy fighter jets if you get along with everyone which we do.

6) And last but not least we have got by without jets for decades without any incident or need for them why should we all of a sudden allocate over a billion or more to something that would be a token effort at best at air defense when we could use that money far better in the country.

I have an open challenge to alot of know it all posters on here to answer these points with any decent level of sense and logic all have failed to do so.

I can therefor conclude that these people are bluffing and just regurgitating stuff they read online and will defend there war/top gun fantasies to last.

Nighttime22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883166#Comment_119883166

Ill just entertain the idea that Britain overnight implodes and randomly decides it wants to attack us again. We have bought our 10-15 outdated jets great. Britain launches several preemptive strikes and cripples them instantly at the start of the war, with air superiority achieved they now run sorties relentlessly over Ireland crippling key infrastructure and military bases to which we have no reply. They then thru the north start a ground attack to mob up the rest they are in Dublin in a couple of days and the country is occupied in a week.

Key points there first strike ability is superior to our nonexistent one and there army is vastly superior to ours in everyway = quick end for our standing army and were back to the good old days of guerilla warfare.

Please explain to me how 10-15 outdated jets helped?

AS for the rouge Airline, once its in the air its basically too late if thats what you are concerned about airport security would be a far better investment.

Random acts of terror are nearly impossible to stop regardless of equipment.

bear1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883044#Comment_119883044

You're literally doing what you don't want done to you, taking pot shots and acting as if you know better than the defence forces.

You clearly haven't got a clue, and i find It somewhat laughable that your only line of defence is that other countries should protect us.

Would ya ever feck off what that shite, you couldn't string a proper argument together if your life depended on it.

You have literally no counter as to why Ireland doesn't need a defence nor can you in any way shape or form provide a scenario where you can back up why Ireland should rely on other nations.

Taking your rants on a questionable whole, Ireland as a sovereign state should not engage in any sort of defence spending because the UK and the US are there to protect us.

Utter gibshiterry

bear1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883547#Comment_119883547

How does airport security bring a hikacked airliner down? How does that stop it happening?

So you admit that we have no control over our airspace then if a country can take it over easily... Have ya found an exit to the circle you keep running in?

So random acts of terrorism can't be stopped so may as well just say feck it and do nothing at all to stop it.

Jaysis :D

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883504#Comment_119883504

Lets go through your 'facts' ...

1) Irelands Geographical Location and proximity to nations with good ties and strong militaries that would without doubt aid us in the extremely unlikely event we were invaded.

As I said before they may help but we have to fight back first Also the UK is still the most likely enemy, would other nations look on it as an internal matter?

2) The futility of us shooting down a Russian aircraft that refused to obey a weak, underfunded outdated token irish airforce.

In these situations a fly by is all that would be necessary how often have the UK shot down a Russian jet in their airspace?

3) Our inability to cope with the response from countries like Russia if we did in fact use Fighter Jets to shoot down there aircraft thus leading to the point why even have them in the first place?

What response could Russia make if this unlikely event occurred? Sanctions? hardly an all out invasion and we show we are prepared to fight them.

4) The billions the program would cost and it would unless you think the jets will pay for themselves and in there spare time build there own facilities, radar, buy munitions and train pilots.

Not Billions as said before. A few jets perhaps on a lease arrangement.

5) Our Global presence and the fact we conduct ourselves well and are well liked by other nations, no need for fancy fighter jets if you get along with everyone which we do.

Really? If a country tries to get along with everyone it is left alone? History does not support this view but precisely the opposite.

6) And last but not least we have got by without jets for decades without any incident or need for them why should we all of a sudden allocate over a billion or more to something that would be a token effort at best at air defense when we could use that money far better in the country. by one..

The Billions again! Yes we did fine without them for a long time but the world is changing fast, look at Ukraine and the threats to peace posed by resource shortages and Glolbal warming coming down the line. You could say that all our regular defence forces are token but that is not to say that they are not necessary. A small force in being can be added to easily starting from scratch is very difficult. There are always ways that money can be 'better' spent but you'll find it hard to get everyone to agree on what.

bear1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883632#Comment_119883632

I fear you've wasted your keyboards keys being typed responding to such idiotic posts.

Myself included. The poster hasn't a clue.

Seems to know better than the actual army don't ya know!

Nighttime22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883624#Comment_119883624

Do you genuinely believe your going to be able to contest the British in a conventional war with a couple of outdated jets? lol

What happened after 9/11? did they put more fighter jets in the air ? oh no they didnt! they increased airport security, these hijackings are the nonsense ye are coming up with to justify Ireland spending a billion or more on a fighter jet program ye seem to be baffled by that number but these things are cheap nor are they free to run lol and all that goes with em.

But then again this is stuff i should be expecting from people who believe

1) Russia is a real threat to Ireland.

2) Britain is gonna implode and randomly invade us.

3) And we are expecting some serious amount of planes to be hijacked coming into Ireland.

bear1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883663#Comment_119883663

Still talking shite

mupper2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883504#Comment_119883504

"I'm literally laughing out loud at the stupid logic but what makes it funnier is the smugness that you think your right"

Your entire argument boils down to "Everyone likes the Paddys"

So a few points.

A. The national security of the county goes beyond "fighter jets" and the idea you keep bringing up about us being physically invaded is not what people involved in the NS area talk about in relation to Ireland...it's just something people like yourself glom onto as some sort of clutch argument because you lack the imagination for anything else.

B. The HSE attack was barely 18 months ago, our health system was brought to its knees by a bunch of Russian/Ukrainian hackers and we had to ask for help from various foreign 3/4 letter acronym OGAs because we didn't have the ability to even process the attack never mind take preventative or investigative measures because "Shure who'd attack us?"

C. Unsecured neutrality is not neutrality..for example their are currently 3 "declared" neutral states in the EU Ireland, Austria, Malta.Austria maintains a sizable military and intelligence/cyber security element, Malta has defence treaties with Italy...we...we hope someone will help. Costa Rica famously demiliterised, except for the defence treaties with the US which they used as a big stick when Nicaragua heated u their border dispute a decade ago

D. In your 5th point "Our global presence....we get along with everyone".... That's nonsense and how a child thinks the World operates

I mean

"“The [...] policies of the Irish Government is something else. There is certainly an unfriendly policy towards Russia and that has been stated quite clearly on many occasions.”

RF Ambassador Yuri Filatov Sept 2022

Smug enough for you?

Nighttime22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883671#Comment_119883671

Still no answer to the facts eh

bear1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883701#Comment_119883701

Ah yeah you'll have that ted

breadmond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882320#Comment_119882320

Tell me more about these rouge airliners

bear1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883722#Comment_119883722

I think he's referring to virgin airlines.

Nighttime22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883680#Comment_119883680

No it boils down to these

1) We have no realistic threats and haven't for decades.

2) We have had a Hijacking in decades and airport security is far stricter than ever before. Not that jets will stop that anyway.

3) We have Fantastic relations with the UK and the US among many other nations.

So you want fighter jets because of a cyber attack? lol talk about strawman arguments and completely irrelevant to the topic of fighter jets as there is a significant difference in a physical military strike and rouge opportunistic cyber attack.

I think its absolutely delusional to believe our country is in any form of danger of military attack or invasion, I worry for people that believe this to be a likely scenario, so much so that they want a vast increase on military spending.

No one seems to be able to answer me though,

What is your vision in detail of the Irish army airforce and navy, what would make you feel "We sure can beat the Russians and Brits now in a war!" go on lads i could do with a laugh tell me your delusions of the mighty irish army.