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Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,774 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Could also be that they won't be getting much from the Russians from now on. So US is the way to go.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭sparky42


    And yet you have spent the weekend suggesting we should be buying Russian hardware?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,774 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    I did point out that MIGs might be really, really cheap. Anyway we are in a totally different situation to Ukraine they need a lot of latest tech fighters that can be supplied by a friendly ally. We on the other hand need at most a handful of competent interceptors and parts from any nation (except Russia and that is still a lot) getting out of theirs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,471 ✭✭✭Sgt. Bilko 09




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,774 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    The Rafale is probably beyond our need. Expensive too at 115M each! You could get 12 MIGs for that..



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 142 ✭✭Nighttime22


    Is everyone that goes against you and your little clique of lifers on this thread a troll? You and the other 3 have literally been on this thread for years and add nothing constructive to the topic bar petty insults and trying to discredit people you disagree with because you cant debate the topic.

    some of ye have been on this thread for the bones of 5 years... don't yeah think its time to let it go... and you've the neck to try call other people out lol sad



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,918 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Yes.

    Your post there is the very definition of trolling.

    Bog off.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 142 ✭✭Nighttime22


    Define trolling please, cause i'd argue what you and your clique try to do to people that try to discuss the topic on here as trolling, incessant pettiness and insults with 0 facts... only you get butt hurt when people dont march to your beat.

    Take your own advice and bog off.... here 5 years ffs get a life..

    Post edited by Nighttime22 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,894 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    Good call here, they also mention that they want to upgrade quite a bit and that includes the air force.

    Positive signs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    Yep. People who have spent their working days sifting and deleting Twitter posts are ideally qualified to develop composite materials, weapons guidance systems, fly-by-wire controls and all the necessary avionics to produce a modern day jet fighter.

    Why didn't we think of this before?

    Are many, or indeed ANY, of the people laid off by the likes of Twitter and Facebook in Ireland in any way technical? I suspect most of them are "back-office" types. Accountants, clerks, possibly even ad salespeople.

    And in any case: I think calling the likes of Facebook, Twitter, Airb'nb, Uber etc "Technology companies" is a misnomer. They are technology-enabled companies, not technology developers.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 142 ✭✭Nighttime22


    I cant wait to see the next phase of our strategy by the commission and there plans after we have to use said fighter jets that they want to procure,

    Everyone IN favor of jets on here believe we need them because the UK and US will not aid us and cant be relied upon.

    I want to know what we do when we've had to defend our airspace from the... lets say Russians they seem to be a favorite here.. come on armchair generals and the commission what's the plan now lad's do we summon our 9000 troops and put our 10 jets on high alert lol what's the game plan.

    Im laughing already at the responses or lack of them its hilarious when you point out the moronic logic of paid "professionals" such as on that commission and wannabe armchair generals on here that believe themselves so elite they are above responding but have been sitting here for 5-6 years of there lives.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,894 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    Criticizes those who want better defence as being armchair generals and then goes on and on about how we should let other nations protect us.. fantastic bit of military planning right there.

    That's the laughable part for me :)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,354 ✭✭✭EchoIndia


    Regardless of the Commission's report, then why would any small country such as, say, Belgium, Denmark or the Netherlands bother to have its own armed forces (including air defence fighters) when (a) they could easily be overcome by an aggressor and (b) their bigger neighbours would surely come to their aid of they were attacked?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Or the ones that suggest instead of investing in defence in case of attack we all pretend it's 1920 and fight with a few rifles to sort out an attack, much more sensible than "wasting money on defence"!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭sparky42




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 142 ✭✭Nighttime22


    More like criticizing those that think we can actually defend on our own against Russia and the likes as seriously mentioned in this thread its laughable, if they were serious about defense we'd be joining NATO to get the help off the big dogs not trying to keep up with them in the most moronic way possible. If we feel that threatened and believe a threat is imminent we should be joining not playing solider and relying on combat inexperienced commission and there delusional tactics.

    It's quite literally a waste of money we would be better off letting the Russians fly harmlessly by as they have done over the years than going up trying to be macho with our few jets and confronting them and risk a potential incident, in fact id argue us having fighter jets with the small man syndrome that runs thru this thread and by the looks of it the commission places our country in more danger than it protects us from.

    Imagine these morons actually try to "defend us" from a Russian aircraft and shoot it down... imagine the consequences as they sit there wondering what to do next lmao



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 142 ✭✭Nighttime22


    You cant compare Ireland's unique position with any other small country we have such low level of threat here i mean ridiculously low in military terms we could actually get by without military nearly.

    We are so far removed from danger its ridiculous we have fantastic relations with the US and were there any threat to this nation and aid was requested only the most delusional of people would believe we wouldn't receive instant help from the US and UK.

    But the real truth of the matter is Ireland simply does not have the capacity to defend itself from a serious threat militarily on its own and would 100% rely on aid from bigger nations, and thats what the commission should be saying not having us waste billions on fighter jets out of irrational paranoia... the housing crisis is more of a threat than the Russians ffs lmao



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 142 ✭✭Nighttime22


    We haven't a fighter jet to our name since 1998 and yet somehow miraculously we are still here and without any incident in that time! its almost as if we have 0 threats as a nation!

    But hey don't let the facts get in the way!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 142 ✭✭Nighttime22


    I offer real fact base reason's as to why Ireland shouldn't waste billions on fighter jets.

    The lads here cant offer up any realistic rationale or proven situations in which we have desperately required the use of modern fighter jets that we absolutely cant live without em.

    The challenge has been put out to all the lifers here:

    SGT.Biko

    Labre

    dohville

    bear1

    Not one of em can contest what im saying in a factual manner all they have is petty insults and avoidance which speaks volumes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,774 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Will it always be that way? I don't think that we need many but a few to at least show our presence to those coming into our airspace without permission and the ability to intercept a rogue airliner.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 142 ✭✭Nighttime22


    The US has been spending billions and billions on air defense and even they couldn't stop a rouge airliner, at what point do we know its a rogue airliner? at what point do we decide to shoot it down even if we have jets? Irelands a small country the timeframe to make the decisions to kill everyone on board the airliner because they aren't communicating or responding...what if there communications are down and we decide to kill 100s of people when there was no terrorist? who makes that call?

    If we had the best Fighter Jets in the world I don't think we could stop that scenario taking place so i dont think its a strong enough reason to invest billions into Fighter Jets.

    To answer your orignal question i Think it will always be that way between our geographical location and the relations we have with other countries i would find it very hard to find a nation that would be hell bent on attacking us we are a very friendly and reasonable nation that gets along very well with other nations we dont really have realistic threats if we are being totally honest nor will we with the way we conduct ourselves as a nation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,136 ✭✭✭purplepanda


    No one has suggested that Ireland should spend "billions" on "fighter jets", there are no such suggestions in the recent Defence Commission report either. You obviously haven't read any of the previous proposals regarding this issue nor the DC report for the financial costs.

    As for potential rogue hijacked airliners / other aircraft refusing to communicate with Irish air traffic control, what do you suggest, let the British government / military make the decision instead, because their actions could potentially be fully against Irish interests. Ireland should be making the ultimate decision as it would affect Ireland. A sovereign nation state of Ireland's population & income in any other part of Europe has the exact same responsibility.

    If you are happy with Britain continuing to defend Irish airspace carry on so. But don't claim to be pacifist, non aligned or neutral, in the next sentence.

    Your last paragraph is totally naive, it is the duty of a sovereign nation to defend itself against all identified potential threats. If you don't want to spend much money actually doing this you could join a military alliance for less financial outlay such as Iceland has done. Being non aligned or neutral works out as more defence spending, that is if you actually want to defend the nation & pay for Ireland's overseas United Nations missions.

    If you are a pacifist & don't believe Ireland should have any military / or advocate much reduced or very limited defence capability, why are you then suggesting that Ireland can rely on others, such as the USA, UK & EU partners, that should do it for free?

    Post edited by purplepanda on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 319 ✭✭mupper2


    Huh...next you'll be saying you have house and car insurance like some sort of weirdo!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 93 ✭✭RavenP


    There are two arguments that tend to be made by people who believe Ireland should not have any significant defence capability.

    1. That military capacity and military actions are morally unjustifiable and that Ireland should only have some kind of gendarmerie.
    2. Ireland has few threats.
    3. That Ireland has not the capacity to defend itself because it is too poor or too small.

    The first point is, in one sense, true. Aggressive military actions are morally unjustifiable. The war in Ukraine is an example of a morally unjustifiable invasion. The US invasion of Iraq is another example. Defensive military actions are not immoral, however. The UK probably was morally justified in the Falklands, and I think only a small minority would sugest that the Ukraine has no right to resist the Russian invasion.

    The second point, that Ireland has no threats, has been true for much of the 20th and early 21st centuries. The Irish Army was scaled back considerably in the 30s when the threat of war with the UK was no longer considered imminent. Also in the early 60s, when the cold war looked like it was unlikely to become hot, the Irish military was slashed its capacity to reflect this. Likewise in the post troubles period the Defence Forces were able to significantly scaled back. In between these periods, however, there were episodes of threat. The Army underwent an enormous expansion in the early 40s, in response to the threat of German (or rarely stated possible British) invasion. By 1942 the British Army were so impressed by the Irish army's buildup, that they considered Ireland to be at no risk of succumbing to any likely German invasion! A less significant military buildup occurred post-1969, when the troubles in the north caught Ireland by surprise. We are entering a new era however. There are credible threats on the horizon. The world is destabilising, not just Russia, our nearest neighbour has been going through an existential crisis. A breakup of the UK and even internal unrest, even conflict in Britain, is not impossible. Problems can spill over. Also in an international east-west conflict Ireland is a target, even as a neutral state. Ireland is a valuable hub for data, high value IT services, world class manufacturing. Simply put, Ireland is a very important cog in the western machine and if any wide scale European or world war broke out Ireland would be on any target list for a state actor. In fact, because of its relative lack of defence, Ireland may be an easy target, and as a non-NATO member, a small act of agression, such as destroying data cables for instance, may not occasion a NATO military response, but have a huge economic effect. A severing of Ireland's data cables would cost many years defence spending in repairs and lost revenue, jobs etc. And before anyone thinks that this is all targeted at Russia, Ireland has has had its data cables interfered with before, during the Brexit negotiations when the Irish Navy found that a device to intercept Irish diplomatic communications had been placed on a cable in the Irish sea. Irish military intelligence, quietly, believes a "five eyes" power to be responsible.

    Likewise the air to the west of Ireland is regularly being flown through by foreign militaries. NATO forces usually let Irish ATC know of their passage through the Irish controlled region, but other forces, namely the VVS, do not. This is not just a military risk, but is a risk to air transport. These aircraft do not fly with transponders on, they do not follow air traffic controllers. They need to be detected and escorted as much for health and safety of air travel as much as anything else. Again these flights have only appeared skirting Ireland in the last few years. There was no risk of this 20 years ago.

    Thirdly, The idea that Ireland is too small or too poor is utter nonsense. Ireland is in fact geographically lucky. It is relatively easy to defend, but it must have some credible defence. It does not need to be a great lion, because even a lion will not tackle a little hedgehog, it is just not worth the trouble. That is all Ireland has to achieve, becoe a hedgehog. With regard to the Air Corps, two squadrons of 4th Gen fighters, the three sets of pilots per plane, hangers, radars, over their life will only cost a few hundred million per annum, it is actually money well spent, and the good will from our neighbours , who will see Ireland stepping up to the plate, will be worth the investment. It would also give Ireland a credible air defence, they could be used in UN missions also (UN is increasingly wanting air forces), and be a diplomatic multiplier for Ireland's international posture.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 142 ✭✭Nighttime22


    Just a genius here lmao

    I could potential be struck by lightning i should never leave the house.

    Planet Earth could be hit by an asteroid i shouldn't go to work tomorrow.


    Your strawman attempts are very comparable to what we are discussing and certainly add great depth...🤣🙄



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 142 ✭✭Nighttime22


    How much should we spend then? do you realize how much these things cost? then you have maintenance, training programs, munitions, facilities all the supporting equipment ect And all for what ? to play a game we cant win? Any one capable of hypothetically invading us is a superpower and we wouldn't be able to compete with them anyway using inferiors second hand outdated jets we bought off them in the first place.

    Overall it is just a stupid endeavor.

    We could afford to not buy any jets or join any alliance and we would be perfectly fine and that's just the reality of it and its backed up factually too since its what we've been doing for decades and we have never had an incident ever... but now all of a sudden we need all these expensive fighter jets to fight phantom threats and soothe the paranoia of a commission that is claiming we are under severe threat with no actually basis for this in fact or reality.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 142 ✭✭Nighttime22


    Its almost like....house fire's and flood damage and car crashes occur regularly and have done for decades... and then its almost like Ireland getting invaded by the likes of Russia never happens.... hmmm strange indeed isn't it? its almost as if the they aren't comparable.. and what you are saying is nonsensical.

    I'm literally laughing out loud at the stupid logic but what makes it funnier is the smugness that you think your right 🤣



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 142 ✭✭Nighttime22


    So wait let me get this straight and correct me if im wrong.

    Britain is going to implode and fight itself and we should have a military because it will somehow spill over into Ireland.???

    Also no one is going to help defend us... but we are an important cog in the western machine in a conflict in an west vs east scenario.. one could argue that is exactly why we would be highly defended.??

    But in the scenario that either came true the level of build up that it would require for us to be able to consistently sustain a defense against nations that can attack us isn't feasible its not as simple as "here paddy there's a gun now defend" where are we getting munitions from?? explain the supply chain, explain how big the army will be ?

    You sound like a captain price wannabe if im honest what you on about "a great lion wont attack a hedgehog", Christ above man come back to reality and put the war fantasies away.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,471 ✭✭✭Sgt. Bilko 09


    “Any one capable of hypothetically invading us is a superpower and we wouldn't be able to compete with them anyway using inferiors second hand outdated jets we bought off them in the first place’’

    I’d say you are great at defending yourself.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 142 ✭✭Nighttime22


    Man up and state your opinion on the actual topic rather than taking pot shots at posters that disagree with you.



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