Electronic bikes - thoughts from anyone using them

Etc

magicbastarder wrote: »

at the risk of derailing the thread, why?
according to the definitions in this article, electronic is a better term in some circumstances:

http://www.differencebetween.info/difference-between-electrical-and-electronics

The bikes are powered by electricity however in many cases the motor is controlled electronically, the "brain" of the bike detects cadence and effort and regulates the amount of power needed to maintain speed / momentum without major a increase in power by the rider. Different bikes have different levels of sophistication in that regard.

CramCycle

To save us going down a rabbit hole here, the OP is asking about pedal assist or e-bikes, lets focus on recommendations, positives, negatives and experiences.

Personally if I was more genetically predisposed to being healthy and well, I would pick an e-bike for commuting. It looks easier, fun, relaxing and you still get the exercise buzz.

Regrettably I don't so regular bike for my own sake, and a big thanks to the e-bikes on my route, as they provide great pace makers.

Apologies for dragging the thread off topic.

Icyseanfitz

i can see them becoming massive in the mtb scene. Having a E DH bike that can get you the top 20 times vs the 5 youd get if you had to push up will be a game changer.

ted1

Deleted

MOD VOICE: Leave the Electric/electronic discussion to elsewhere, they are e-bikes, whatever the e means to you is your interpretation.

schemingbohemia

1bryan wrote: »

so, as someone who has never used an e-bike can you explain this to me. Is it the case that, above 25kph, the battery cuts out? Or is it that you're on your own after that? So any power above 25kph is generated by you?

If the latter, then you could still get up some fast speeds if your contribution only really kicks in above 25kph.

Would be curious to try one out but couldn't ever see myself getting one.

You always have to pedal, it won't kick in unless you pedal. It's like when you were learning to cycle (or me at least) and your parent would have their hand on your back with a little boost.

As someone else pointed out it's particularly useful at traffic lights as you take off quicker than cars for that vital first few metres, makes it safer.

It just makes cycling easier, arrive into work without needing a shower.

The downsides are the weight of the bike and range anxiety which is linked to the first as they're so heavy to cycle when the battery has died.

Duckjob

Have one as well as my regular road bike, and I love it.

As I've mentioned on another thread the real advantage of an ebike for me isnt to get you places faster than a regular bike, it's the utility to get you places with much less hassle.

You may be able to get somewhere just as quick (or even quicker depending on your fitness level) on your regular bike, but whereas in that case you're likely to be needing a cooldown / shower / change of clothes, with an ebike you can generally arrive in your regular clothes with not a drop of sweat if you want to.

Ferris

Recently bought a Cube eMTB as detailed in this thread:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057787362

I got a lot of good advice, particularly about battery size. I ended up with a 500wh battery rather than the 400wh based on the advice I got and I am glad that I did.

Due to the limiter (an indicated 27kmh in my bike) it’s not much faster than the road bike but the commute is far more consistent, hills, fatigue, weather etc. is less of a factor. Thus you are more likely to get up on a sh1tty morning and get on the bike rather than wimping out in the car. In addition the hardtail mtb is MUCH more stable on the road and in traffic than a road bike, as well as being far more comfortable.

Some caveats apply, my bike is over 20kg and is very upright, you have to push really hard to get over 30kmh for any duration. Also, ebikes wear drivetrain components a lot more quickly so prepare to buy chains, sprockets and group sets more frequently. I cannot remember the ebike, maybe in cycle superstore, which had a hub gear, this seems more attractive to me in retrospect for reliability.

I am delighted with the change, I can commute more regularly, get some exercise, save a shed load of time not being in traffic and save on tolls and petrol. Recommended!

kennethsmyth

Just thought i'd throw in my two cents worth as usually i over examine when buying !

Few things, legal electric bikes in ireland are pedelecs and you have to pedal to receive additional power, they are limited to 25kmph and then cut out assistance. Anything over this is a speed pedelec and not road legal. Due to the nature of the electric bicycle you get up to speed quicker and off the lights quicker but you won't essentially travel faster than a fit person on a bike, i usually cruise at 30kmph on the flat 5km above the cut off. This means that you are not any more of a danger than a fit cyclist so long as you pay attention.

I use a bosch performance line center drive and as i live in a very hilly area this gives the best performance for that type of cycling.

Hub drives can suit the commuter but front hubs would not be the best on a hill as no weight under it.

There are 4 types of bosch drive and the 2 newer ones are much more suited to commuter cycling due to no resistance, they are still center drives but use normal chain rings whereas the performance line and cx motors are geared internally and give a little resistance when cycling unassisted.

1. Active line (40NM torque) but no resistance when peddling unassisted (new 2018)
2. Active line plus (50Nm torque) same as above but with more copper windings on motor hence better torque
3. Performance line (63NM) brilliant uphill and works offroad great - good for upmarket commuter or mtb.
4. CX line - (75NM) - best for serious offroad mtb

I have a cube hpa race nyon 29er for the last 2 years with both mtb tyres and big apples for the road, have had it up ticknock and also plenty on the road.

I mention bosch a lot because if you are looking for a system thats solid and proven its hard to go wrong - batteries are standard and its one of the few systems that give a full system (head unit, motor, battery) all by the one company and it can also be hooked up to diagnostics at your suppliers shop if something is not right. All bosch dealers also have to go on a bosch course to be allowed sell and maintain their bikes.

I've found that short of being able to afford a stormer the 29er cube has been infallable and wouldn't go back to killing myself up hills. Also its great fun.

If i can give one piece of advise - bigger wheels roll faster! yea!

schemingbohemia

Just with regard to the "road legal" aspect. My understanding is that speed pedelecs are legal but must be registered, taxed and insured, driving licence etc it essentially is treated as a motorbike, so legal but all the compliance downsides of a car/motorbike with a lot less power.

kennethsmyth

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Just with regard to the "road legal" aspect. My understanding is that speed pedelecs are legal but must be registered, taxed and insured, driving licence etc it essentially is treated as a motorbike, so legal but all the compliance downsides of a car/motorbike with a lot less power.

Hi scheming, you are correct they are legal "if" you could register them.
Someone in the uk has tried and possibly caused issues for other users of speed pedelecs on the road as presently police/gardai seem to ignore them but this person has brought it to the forefront as they wished to register and get insurance etc.

It would be very difficult at present to register them as you point out its technically under the motorbike section.


but the police

Lemming

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

i can see them becoming massive in the mtb scene. Having a E DH bike that can get you the top 20 times vs the 5 youd get if you had to push up will be a game changer.

E-categories already exist for some events here in the UK, but you are not going to see E-bikes mixed in with non E-bikes in a given race. Plus you wont do any better pointed downhill on an e-bike than on a "normal" bike. Not withstanding the fact that e-bikes are heavy; if you're needing to throw a full-suspension e-bike about a lot over the course of a few minutes you're going to be knackered doing it (and contrary to popular belief; downhill racing requires a level of fitness that most people don't realise is required because ... "downhill, no pedalling, how hard can it be?" ... )

Massive and/or a game-changer for mtb racing they will not become.

1bryan

Lemming wrote: »

E-categories already exist for some events here in the UK, but you are not going to see E-bikes mixed in with non E-bikes in a given race.

well, there's the Tour de France

Icyseanfitz

Lemming wrote: »

E-categories already exist for some events here in the UK, but you are not going to see E-bikes mixed in with non E-bikes in a given race. Plus you wont do any better pointed downhill on an e-bike than on a "normal" bike. Not withstanding the fact that e-bikes are heavy; if you're needing to throw a full-suspension e-bike about a lot over the course of a few minutes you're going to be knackered doing it (and contrary to popular belief; downhill racing requires a level of fitness that most people don't realise is required because ... "downhill, no pedalling, how hard can it be?" ... )

Massive and/or a game-changer for mtb racing they will not become.

ive no illusions of the fitness required for DH, used to do it myself. What they will be amazing for is the ability to have a pretty much self contained uplift device. For instance my own local DH track, take about 20-30 minutes of pushing to get to the top for 4 minutes of riding. so over say 4 hours you'd have 8 rides to hone your skills. Then take an ebike that can get you to the top in 10 minutes, you'd be at least doubling your time going down the track, and increasing your skill that much more.

Ebikes will get lighter and more capable over time, just look at trail/enduro bikes these days, not far off the ability of full on DH bikes.

Will they be used in racing, who knows but yeah as you said if they are it will be in their own category and not mixed with regular bikes.

schemingbohemia

kennethsmyth wrote: »

Hi scheming, you are correct they are legal "if" you could register them.
Someone in the uk has tried and possibly caused issues for other users of speed pedelecs on the road as presently police/gardai seem to ignore them but this person has brought it to the forefront as they wished to register and get insurance etc.

It would be very difficult at present to register them as you point out its technically under the motorbike section.


but the police

I think that was actually more to do with a particular issue in Northern Ireland for all electric bikes.

Yes found this
https://cyclingindustry.news/halfords-suspends-electric-bike-sales-in-northern-ireland/

kennethsmyth

schemingbohemia wrote: »

I think that was actually more to do with a particular issue in Northern Ireland for all electric bikes.

Yes found this
https://cyclingindustry.news/halfords-suspends-electric-bike-sales-in-northern-ireland/

Yep that's an additional issue in the north due to no legislation passed because there's no assembly at present. It means that any electric bicycle is not legal on the road at present as the north did not apply eu law sometime back whereas the mainland uk did.

The uk one that I mentioned relates to someone actually tried very stubbornly to fully register a speed pedelec to legally ride it on the road but I've no recollection of the outcome other than some speed pedelec users where annoyed for bringing attention on them.

kennethsmyth

Getting back to OP on whether electric bikes are useful/fun/worthwhile etc.

They are the business!, love it and i go cycling down in full wet gear and still enjoy myself

Canis Lupus

I love mine. It has made my motorbike for commuting essentially redundant to the point I'm now thinking of selling it however my kit isn't road legal (has a a larger than permitted motor and no cutoff) so I can't really say what the legal versions with the 25kph cut offs are like.

They can be very pricey if you want a good, known brand bike. The cheaper they get the shonkier the bike. They're also heavy and obviously have limited ranges so if you're planning on a big ride and your end up with no battery you'll be working hard to cycle home. You are also adding complexity to a bike. More things to break and go wrong and depending on what you get may not be user serviceable.

If you have a bike already I'd suggest looking into a conversion kit if aesthetics aren't too important to you. You can get front or rear hub motor kits or mid drive (best type imo).

Plastik

So what's the standing with these illegal eBikes. There's quite a few of them out there. Users on here, not to single out the last poster, freely admit owning and using them on the road. Is there a penalty if caught? What is it? There's nothing to stop me buying a moped at the weekend, ignoring that I require insurance and tax, putting on a helmet, and simply using it for the work commute. These eBikes are operating in a very dark grey legal area TBH. Do mechanically propelled vehicles that can travel above a certain speed require tax & insurance according to the Road Traffic Act? Do these bikes meet that definition? If so it's interesting to see people use, and be delighted about using them on the road, something I'm sure most wouldn't do with a moped.

Was musing all of the above on pedal powered commute in this morning, after I had been passed by an eBike while doing 30kph up a gradual incline as if I was going backwards. He must have been doing 45kph at least. I think it was the same Haibike that I have seen a few times. TBH I thought it was dangerous and had no business in the cycle lanes. It would easily keep up with, if not be faster than a lot of mopeds.

There's a difference between doing 45-50kph on occasion in cycle lanes, and travelling everywhere at a constant 45-50kph in them, in my opinion.

1bryan

Plastik wrote: »

So what's the standing with these illegal eBikes. There's quite a few of them out there. Users on here, not to single out the last poster, freely admit owning and using them on the road. Is there a penalty if caught? What is it? There's nothing to stop me buying a moped at the weekend, ignoring that I require insurance and tax, putting on a helmet, and simply using it for the work commute. These eBikes are operating in a very dark grey legal area TBH. Do mechanically propelled vehicles that can travel about a certain speed require tax & insurance according to the Road Traffic Act? Do these bikes meet that definition? If so it's interesting to see people use, and be delighted about using them on the road, something I'm sure most wouldn't do with a moped.

Was musing all of the above on pedal powered commute in this morning, after I had been passed by an eBike while doing 30kph up a gradual incline as if I was going backwards. He must have been doing 45kph at least. I think it was the same Haibike that I have seen a few times. TBH I thought it was dangerous and had no business in the cycle lanes. It would easily keep up with, if not be faster than a lot of mopeds.

There's a difference between doing 45-50kph on occasion in cycle lanes, and travelling everywhere at a constant 45-50kph in them, in my opinion.

apologies in advance for posting a link to a Sun article (and feel free not to click and support that sham of a publication), but here's a story about a modified bike being seized by the gardai.

https://www.thesun.ie/news/1281371/gardai-seize-petrol-engine-mountain-bike-from-diy-enthusiast-after-bolting-down-irish-motorway/

At the moment it's probably not that big of an issue so they're not wasting too much effort looking out for it. As it becomes a bigger deal I can see that changing. The bike in the article was a little on the obvious side. I've seen a couple like this about the place myself, as I'm sure have we all.

Lemming

1bryan wrote: »

apologies in advance for posting a link to a Sun article (and feel free not to click and support that sham of a publication), but here's a story about a modified bike being seized by the gardai.

https://www.thesun.ie/news/1281371/gardai-seize-petrol-engine-mountain-bike-from-diy-enthusiast-after-bolting-down-irish-motorway/

At the moment it's probably not that big of an issue so they're not wasting too much effort looking out for it. As it becomes a bigger deal I can see that changing. The bike in the article was a little on the obvious side. I've seen a couple like this about the place myself, as I'm sure have we all.

JEBUS :eek:

No front brake what-so-ever, and only a ****ty cantilever rim brake on the rear. It utterly blows my mind that people slap sh1te like that onto a bike frame and then don't think about being able to stop given they want to travel faster. I'm expecting to see 203mm disc rotors and hydraulic, twin-piston calipers, but evrey time I see one of these bicycle-shaped objects it's a pair of sh1tty old-school rim calipers - so not even V brakes - that wouldn't stop sh1t.

Darwinism at work ...

cdaly_

Plastik wrote: »

So what's the standing with these illegal eBikes. There's quite a few of them out there. Users on here, not to single out the last poster, freely admit owning and using them on the road. Is there a penalty if caught? What is it? There's nothing to stop me buying a moped at the weekend, ignoring that I require insurance and tax, putting on a helmet, and simply using it for the work commute. These eBikes are operating in a very dark grey legal area TBH. Do mechanically propelled vehicles that can travel above a certain speed require tax & insurance according to the Road Traffic Act? Do these bikes meet that definition? If so it's interesting to see people use, and be delighted about using them on the road, something I'm sure most wouldn't do with a moped.

I'd say little enough happens from the enforcement POV but, if you're riding one and involved in a collision, the ensuing investigation decides you were riding an un-registered, un-taxed, un-insured motorcycle and you face in interesting time in both criminal and civil courts.

recedite

1bryan wrote: »

https://www.thesun.ie/news/1281371/gardai-seize-petrol-engine-mountain-bike-from-diy-enthusiast-after-bolting-down-irish-motorway/

At the moment it's probably not that big of an issue so they're not wasting too much effort looking out for it. As it becomes a bigger deal I can see that changing. The bike in the article was a little on the obvious side. I've seen a couple like this about the place myself, as I'm sure have we all.

I have seen that guy around Bray, I'm surprised it took them so long to take it off the road. The engine was so noisy even pedestrians were turning around to see what was coming down the road.

With e-bikes that are powered beyond 25Km/hr its a different story. Not very easy to detect unless the rider is being reckless. I'd imagine if common sense prevails, the Gardai won't want to waste too much of their valuable time on the issue.

ted1

There’s no dark grey area. It’s very black or white

Either they a pedelecs which have no throttle ( engine used related to pedal movement) , where the engine stops asssisting at 25kph and are less than 250watts.

Or they are not classed as pedelecs and require tax etc to be on the road

CramCycle

Lemming wrote: »

JEBUS :eek:

No front brake what-so-ever, and only a ****ty cantilever rim brake on the rear. It utterly blows my mind that people slap sh1te like that onto a bike frame and then don't think about being able to stop given they want to travel faster. I'm expecting to see 203mm disc rotors and hydraulic, twin-piston calipers, but evrey time I see one of these bicycle-shaped objects it's a pair of sh1tty old-school rim calipers - so not even V brakes - that wouldn't stop sh1t.

Darwinism at work ...

No front brake either as far as I can see

recedite wrote: »

I have seen that guy around Bray, I'm surprised it took them so long to take it off the road. The engine was so noisy even pedestrians were turning around to see what was coming down the road.

With e-bikes that are powered beyond 25Km/hr its a different story. Not very easy to detect unless the rider is being reckless. I'd imagine if common sense prevails, the Gardai won't want to waste too much of their valuable time on the issue.

There is another guy around Bray now with a newer looking one, in metallic red. It certainly looks more professional as the colour is matched to the bike but it is essentially the same sh1t show set up to anyone who looks past the paint job. Tipping along past LIDL in town last week.

recedite

CramCycle wrote: »

There is another guy around Bray now with a newer looking one, in metallic red. It certainly looks more professional as the colour is matched to the bike but it is essentially the same sh1t show set up to anyone who looks past the paint job. Tipping along past LIDL in town last week.

Could it possibly be the same guy, now sporting the Lawnmower Frankenbike MkII :pac:

recedite

ted1 wrote: »

There’s no dark grey area. It’s very black or white

Legally yes. But in practice, it would be near impossible to identify a high speed electric model unless you were an expert, or the guy was going 40Kph uphill and not affiliated to any pro team.
It begs the question, why is the shop allowed to sell them, if nobody has ever taxed or insured one? The whole point of the EU pedelec standard was presumably so that only the compliant e-bikes would be on the road?

homer911

http://irishcycle.com/2017/05/27/gardai-warn-bikes-with-petrol-engines-attached-are-low-powered-motorcycles/

Worth a read..

homer911

These things look dangerous...

https://pushbikeengine.ie/

https://www.motorizedbikes.ie/

I suppose its a case of "legal to sell but not legal to use", at least on a public roadway

Corca Baiscinn

Various posters have mentioned the weight of ebikes as being an issue if the battery gives out and you have to pedal home but weight is also a deterrent for older people who might otherwise consider one. I know somebody who likes to cycle and was considering an ebike but having tried one found it far too heavy, to manoeuvre along a pavement to park it or certainly to lift into a car to drive to a Greenway say. I also know older people who are delighted with theirs but they are taller and fitter and live near better PT! Are all models heavy? I understand re weight of battery etc but just wondering if they will get lighter.

Lemming

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

Various posters have mentioned the weight of ebikes as being an issue if the battery gives out and you have to pedal home but weight is also a deterrent for older people who might otherwise consider one. I know somebody who likes to cycle and was considering an ebike but having tried one found it far too heavy, to manoeuvre along a pavement to park it or certainly to lift into a car to drive to a Greenway say. I also know older people who are delighted with theirs but they are taller and fitter and live near better PT! Are all models heavy? I understand re weight of battery etc but just wondering if they will get lighter.

TBH, they're heavy but they're not *that* heavy. When I mentioned weight it's to do with riding off-road; hitting berms, table tops, rollers, and generally flicking a bike around the terrain underneath you over a period of time. That is also in the context of full-suspension mountain bikes being heavier in general than their hard-tail counterparts. Bimbling along a road and mounting a kerb is going to be no more of an issue than on a standard bike.

If someone finds an e-bike too heavy to maneuver along a pavement to park, they've got issues more pressing; such as the ability to open jam jar lids or open fire-doors in a building. Seriously, these bikes are not *that* heavy; they're just heavier than their non e-bike counterparts because ... well battery pack & motor. I've ridden steel frame bikes from the 1990s that were heavier.