Does opposing a United Ireland automatically make you unpatriotic?

FrancieBrady

I am out of the economic discussion here by the way. Totally off topic. There is a thread in Politics discussing this already.

suicide_circus

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Early retirement incentives, no new recruitment, moving people who wish to go. And also, unfortunately, redundancies, which are going to happen anyway.
On top of that there is no particular reason that NI cannot become more productive, in agriculture and manufacturing. Investment and incentives will bring changes too.

The system has to change, we all agree on that. These things need to be done anyway if NI is not to get worse.

Do you think the Irish government can achieve any of the above? Really? Look at the HSE for an example of a civil bureaucracy in the republic that is in desperate need of change. It is in a permanent state of chaos. Numbers of administrative staff rise as the number of frontline staff falls. It is a basket case which no one has the first clue how to fix. Youre talking about removing all funding from the entire NI public service, transitioning to funding from the republic (show me the money!) while also managing monumental systematic changes including mass redundancies. Are you completely off your rocker???!

Bridge93

Another thing I'd like to see if this was to go to a vote is an absolute resolution not just a vote for simple majority. This is too devisive and has too many potential social ramifications to be simply 50.1%. Again Brexit would show us what can happen but the ill feeling could be ten times worse here.

I've no idea if that's actually possible though or whether simple majority is the only allowable method

suicide_circus

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I am out of the economic discussion here by the way. Totally off topic. There is a thread in Politics discussing this already.

Good move.

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Early retirement incentives, no new recruitment, moving people who wish to go. And also, unfortunately, redundancies, which are going to happen anyway.
On top of that there is no particular reason that NI cannot become more productive, in agriculture and manufacturing. Investment and incentives will bring changes too.

The system has to change, we all agree on that. These things need to be done anyway if NI is not to get worse.

Tesco vouchers? or would that cost real money to pay people off then pay their pensions?

Moving people who wish to go? Moving them where?

Redundancies? Won't there be redundancy payments in the Shinner UI or will people just be happy to leave for the sake of the country?

Investment? Who is going to fund it? Do we borrow or fund from any surpluses? And what about opportunity costs - what are we going to forego to pay for NI's economic re-structuring?

......and why can't all that be done before there is any vote on a UI? Why can't that process start tomorrow?

markodaly

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

what is unpatriotic about opposing something that would destroy your country. You sound like a brexiteer.

The more I see this topic being debated, the more convinced I am that those advocating for a United Ireland draw from the same gene pool as idiotic Brexiteers.

Brexit was essentialy a draw to populism and nationalism in the romantic nostalgic setting.

See the talk about re-uniting Ireland, when Ireland was never united in the first place under Irish rule.
See the talk about being unpatriotic if you go against an aim in the Constitution.
See the lack of data for the economic argument, just like Brexit random figures are banded about.

Just like Brexit, we are faced with an argument that states we will sort it all out after a vote, not to worry at all.

Thankfully we see a trial run with that sort of thinking. We are seeing how hard Brexit negotiations are in the real world. Nevermind seeing how the UK economy will react to it over the next 10.

So, Shinnerbots can spout away, as they can be easily ignored.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

The more I see this topic being debated, the more convinced I am that those advocating for a United Ireland draw from the same gene pool as idiotic Brexiteers.

Brexit was essentialy a draw to populism and nationalism in the romantic nostalgic setting.

See the talk about re-uniting Ireland, when Ireland was never united in the first place under Irish rule.
See the talk about being unpatriotic if you go against an aim in the Constitution.
See the lack of data for the economic argument, just like Brexit random figures are banded about.

Just like Brexit, we are faced with an argument that states we will sort it all out after a vote, not to worry at all.

Thankfully we see a trial run with that sort of thinking. We are seeing how hard Brexit negotiations are in the real world. Nevermind seeing how the UK economy will react to it over the next 10.

So, Shinnerbots can spout away, as they can be easily ignored.

What absolute rubbish>

Ireland was always an island of homogeneous people until it was invaded and planted in order to subdue the natives.
The Irish were not allowed to rule it for themselves from that point. That doesn't remove the fact that they were one island and one people.

Maybe a bit of knowledge and respect for your own history would be appropiate here.

Regarding Brexit, is the lesson there that you cannot partition something away from it's lifeline without destroying it?
Because that is what the partition of this island did, destroyed northern Ireland, socially and economically. Or will you try and deny that too or blame the Shinners. :rolleyes:

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What absolute rubbish>

Ireland was always an island of homogeneous people until it was invaded and planted in order to subdue the natives.
The Irish were not allowed to rule it for themselves from that point. That doesn't remove the fact that they were one island and one people.

Maybe a bit of knowledge and respect for your own history would be appropiate here.

Regarding Brexit, is the lesson there that you cannot partition something away from it's lifeline without destroying it?
Because that is what the partition of this island did, destroyed northern Ireland, socially and economically. Or will you try and deny that too or blame the Shinners. :rolleyes:

Exhibit A:

A call to a romantic nostalgic non-historical and non-factual view on the history of Ireland.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Exhibit A:

A call to a romantic nostalgic non-historical and non-factual view on the history of Ireland.

What is not factual and non historical?

baylah17

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What absolute rubbish>

Ireland was always an island of homogeneous people until it was invaded and planted in order to subdue the natives. NOT TRUE, it was loose association of kingdoms and clans.
The Irish were not allowed to rule it for themselves from that point. That doesn't remove the fact that they were one island and one people.

Maybe a bit of knowledge and respect for your own history would be appropiate here. You should try that yourself

:rolleyes:

FFS with the made up history.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What is not factual and non historical?

The romantic narrative about down trodden Ireland fighting against foreign invaders. Ireland was never a homogenous entity, never.

baylah17

markodaly wrote: »

The romantic narrative about down trodden Ireland fighting against foreign invaders. Ireland was never a homogenous entity, never.

But but but what about the four green fields ...
ah for the love of Finn McKool ya cant be forgettin the four green fields
lol

maccored

Does opposing a United Ireland automatically make you unpatriotic?

i can't see how it could. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

maccored

markodaly wrote: »

The romantic narrative about down trodden Ireland fighting against foreign invaders. Ireland was never a homogenous entity, never.

isn't it more about making the country more profitable in reality? Its nothing to do with romantic narratives

markodaly

maccored wrote: »

isn't it more about making the country more profitable in reality? Its nothing to do with romantic narratives

Perhaps, in the long run. But how do we get there, no one seems to have an answer for that.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

The romantic narrative about down trodden Ireland fighting against foreign invaders. Ireland was never a homogenous entity, never.

I didn't say anything about that. You are a serial mis-quoter at this stage.

We were as homogeneous as any island people anywhere.

What were the differences among us if we were not? Was there a different race living in Clare than there was in Wicklow or Tyrone?

jimmycrackcorm

markodaly wrote:

See the talk about re-uniting Ireland, when Ireland was never united in the first place under Irish rule. See the talk about being unpatriotic if you go against an aim in the Constitution. See the lack of data for the economic argument, just like Brexit random figures are banded about.

Works you argue that Scotland or Wales themselves are not united at present? If Scotland have another independence referendum, is there a part of it that could or should stay in the UK?

Discodog

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well, they have done more than most. They have condemned and apologised for what he did. And they took immediate action to suspend him.

I know people want blood, but in my opinion there is nothing to suggest what he did was malicious. He has a record of this silly carry on and fully admits that this one backfired and hurt victims.

You pulled one line of of my post & ignored the rest which isn't above board. You should quote the whole post & highlight the point.

Have they taken down flags, murals etc ? Have they totally & utterly condemned the actions of the IRA ? No because they can't. Real Peacemakers lead & take chances.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We were as homogeneous as any island people anywhere.

I have Viking blood in me, as well as French Norman blood. Our patron saint is Brit for crying out loud. Homogenous we weren't and aren't.

The onus is on you to prove it otherwise, preferably backed by some evidence not just your own words.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

I have Viking blood in me, as well as French Norman blood. Our patron saint is Brit for crying out loud. Homogenous we weren't and aren't.

The onus is on you to prove it otherwise, preferably backed by some evidence not just your own words.

So the people living here were a collection of individuals? Righty ho, we'll leave it there.

maccored

markodaly wrote: »

Perhaps, in the long run. But how do we get there, no one seems to have an answer for that.

we cant get there without discussion. SF had a green paper on this and tried to get discussions going on it. People prefer to waffle on about how much its going to cost - without having an idea of a plan

ohnonotgmail

maccored wrote: »

we cant get there without discussion. SF had a green paper on this and tried to get discussions going on it. People prefer to waffle on about how much its going to cost - without having an idea of a plan

did the sinn fein green paper have a plan? an actually costed plan?

FrancieBrady

Discodog wrote: »

You pulled one line of of my post & ignored the rest which isn't above board. You should quote the whole post & highlight the point.

Eh? I quoted the entire post.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105780164&postcount=398

Have they taken down flags, murals etc ? Have they totally & utterly condemned the actions of the IRA ? No because they can't. Real Peacemakers lead & take chances.

SF haven't worked for the peace that NI currently enjoys? Adams and McGuinness didn't take risks?
I think in all honesty, that is one of the most unfair assessments I have read on here tbh.
The IRA went away when a deal was reached. And those two worked hard to achieve that and to maintain the peace in very difficult times.
They are not perfect but they cannot be accused of standing still.

There is great work going on on the mural projects by the way, to remove their inflammatory and triumphalist natures.
The flying of flags issue has been tackled too, to make it inline with normal practice elsewhere.

Bridge93

The more I look at it, at the current state of play, anyone who is anti Brexit and pro unification of Ireland is contradicting themselves. Some might even call it hypocritical

Boulevardier

I strongly support Irish unification, but in way that is likely to have me branded in some quarters as not only unpatriotic, but also treasonable.

I believe the best way to unite Ireland would be to ditch republicanism and to re-constitute Ireland as a self-governing dominion within the Commonwealth.

That way, the British identity of the unionist community would be not only recognised, but incorporated in the new Ireland. And we would be united and independent.

However the nationalist majority won't have it. They demand the full panoply of tribal republicanism, however long it puts off unity. They will eventually get their way by out-breeding the Protestants, which for them is unity enough.

FrancieBrady

Boulevardier wrote: »

I strongly support Irish unification, but in way that is likely to have me branded in some quarters as not only unpatriotic, but also treasonable.

I believe the best way to unite Ireland would be to ditch republicanism and to re-constitute Ireland as a self-governing dominion within the Commonwealth.

That way, the British identity of the unionist community would be not only recognised, but incorporated in the new Ireland. And we would be united and independent.

However the nationalist majority won't have it. They demand the full panoply of tribal republicanism, however long it puts off unity. They will eventually get their way by out-breeding the Protestants, which for them is unity enough.

I think nationalists are asking for the corollary of your proposal.
I see nothing in the south for Unionist identity to fear.

Interesting though that you expect nationalists to ditch their identities to appease unionists who you say are becoming a minority.

Bridge93

The last thing I ever want to see is Ireland go back under the commonwealth that has more blood and dirt on its hands than any empire in history. To give those 'Little England' **** who in part voted for brexit what they want would be unforgivable to those in charge at the time.

As a country we're doing better than we ever did as part of the commonwealth. We should never return to being some provincial backwater of the empire. Reinstall a monarchy that abused and humiliated this country as our head of state? No thanks

Apart from appeasing a group of people who make up about 1/7 of the population of the island there are no benefits to rejoining the commonwealth.

Discodog

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think nationalists are asking for the corollary of your proposal.
I see nothing in the south for Unionist identity to fear.

Interesting though that you expect nationalists to ditch their identities to appease unionists who you say are becoming a minority.

NHS for one.

Boulevardier

Yes, we nationalists would ditch part of our identity, but for a very great prize, a united and independent Ireland.

Arthur Griffith stood for something like I describe.

The alternative, as preferred by Bridge93, is to remain pure, unsullied and partitioned.

FrancieBrady

Discodog wrote: »

NHS for one.

Only Unionists use the NHS?. The NHS is part of your identity????