Does opposing a United Ireland automatically make you unpatriotic?

ohnonotgmail

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And that sounds like 'your' opinion.
I have seen nothing yet that convinces me that it would 'destroy' our country. It may require some economic austerity but 'destroy' is a complete leap into scaremongering.

it really isnt. Northern ireland requires 10B a year from the british exchequer to function. the biggest employer is the government. where is this 10B a year going to come from? are we going to add these civil servants to our own and make our civil service even less efficient? I've no intention of paying through the nose for your romantic notions.

FrancieBrady

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

it really isnt. Northern ireland requires 10B a year from the british exchequer to function. the biggest employer is the government. where is this 10B a year going to come from? are we going to add these civil servants to our own and make our civil service even less efficient? I've no intention of paying through the nose for your romantic notions.

We cannot even get a concensus on the what the actual subvention is on here, 9, 10, and 12bn have been bandied about.

We need to know how that figure breaks down in detail. How much of it will not be required come a UI and what can be done to rationalise public expenditure in NI (which is going to have to be done anyway if you listen to the Tories and watch the cuts they are making already).

ohnonotgmail

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We cannot even get a concensus on the what the actual subvention is on here, 9, 10, and 12bn have been bandied about.

We need to know how that figure breaks down in detail. How much of it will not be required come a UI and what can be done to rationalise public expenditure in NI (which is going to have to be done anyway if you listen to the Tories and watch the cuts they are making already).

whether it is 9, 10 or 12 is it is money that the republic doesnt have.
By rationalise presumably you mean make a lot of them redundant. thats really going to encourage them to vote for UI.

Discodog

Why are Republicans wasting their time trying to convince us ? It's the Unionists that need convincing. Diplomats would call it a "charm offensive". A United Ireland will never happen if the Unionist don't agree to it & they will never agree whilst they feel threatened.

FrancieBrady

maryishere wrote: »

And that sounds like 'your' opinion.

It is never going to happen, in our lifetime at least, thank God. We have enough political and economic problems in this country without importing a politician and his followers who think its ok to childishly insult and taunt the innocent victims of the Kingsmill massacre on the anniversary.

As somebody who has criticised this man for an appalling lapse of judgement and unawareness I would love to see a society where all offensive symbols and taunts were removed form public view and discourse.
I would also love to see a society where those who get so worked up on behalf of certain 'victims' would recognise that there are other victims who are just as hurt and insulted by effigies burned on bonfires that MP's and MLA's attend and by Taoisigh wearing symbols that honour soldiers who inflicted great suffering on them and their families.

What do you think?

FrancieBrady

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

whether it is 9, 10 or 12 is it is money that the republic doesnt have.
By rationalise presumably you mean make a lot of them redundant. thats really going to encourage them to vote for UI.

Well, let's say we have a timescale of 10 years until a UI happens. Do you think dramatic changes could be made to a public service in 10 years with a minimum of pain?

Discodog

FrancieBrady wrote: »

As somebody who has criticised this man for an appalling lapse of judgement and unawareness I would love to see a society where all offensive symbols and taunts were removed form public view and discourse.
I would also love to see a society where those who get so worked up on behalf of certain 'victims' would recognise that there are other victims who are just as hurt and insulted by effigies burned on bonfires that MP's and MLA's attend and by Taoisigh wearing symbols that honour soldiers who inflicted great suffering on them and their families.

What do you think?

SF could do this now & show a lead. Lead by example.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well, let's say we have a timescale of 10 years until a UI happens. Do you think dramatic changes could be made to a public service in 10 years with a minimum of pain?

Based on the last 10 years for the Irish public service, the answer has to be no. There have been dramatic changes and they have caused huge pain to ordinary public servants and damaged severely public services..

maryishere

FrancieBrady wrote: »

As somebody who has criticised this man for an appalling lapse of judgement and unawareness I would love to see a society where all offensive symbols and taunts were removed form public view and discourse.
I would also love to see a society w...

Whataboutery. At least other MPs, TDs and elected politicians do not wear silly things / slogans on their head on the anniversary of loyalist atrocities eg Greysteele. Or glorify paramilitarism. Or have had "sniper at work" " IRA undefeated army" merchandise on their websites etc.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

As somebody who has criticised this man for an appalling lapse of judgement and unawareness I would love to see a society where all offensive symbols and taunts were removed form public view and discourse.
I would also love to see a society where those who get so worked up on behalf of certain 'victims' would recognise that there are other victims who are just as hurt and insulted by effigies burned on bonfires that MP's and MLA's attend and by Taoisigh wearing symbols that honour soldiers who inflicted great suffering on them and their families.

What do you think?

Sinn Fein need to take a lead on this.

They are all talk about reconciliation and opening up to the other community but protecting McElduff after what he did gives a lie to this sentiment. Pure hypocrisy again from the party most adept at it.

ohnonotgmail

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well, let's say we have a timescale of 10 years until a UI happens. Do you think dramatic changes could be made to a public service in 10 years with a minimum of pain?

with a minimum of pain? no, i dont. make people unemployed in an economy as bad as northern irelands is just condemning them to a life on the dole or emigration.

ohnonotgmail

maryishere wrote: »

Whataboutery. At least other MPs, TDs and elected politicians do not wear silly things / slogans on their head on the anniversary of loyalist atrocities eg Greysteele.

blanch152 wrote: »

Sinn Fein need to take a lead on this.

They are all talk about reconciliation and opening up to the other community but protecting McElduff after what he did gives a lie to this sentiment. Pure hypocrisy again from the party most adept at it.

they are still trying to imply that it was just a coincidence. they think people are pure thick.

FrancieBrady

Discodog wrote: »

SF could do this now & show a lead. Lead by example.

Well, they have done more than most. They have condemned and apologised for what he did. And they took immediate action to suspend him.

I know people want blood, but in my opinion there is nothing to suggest what he did was malicious. He has a record of this silly carry on and fully admits that this one backfired and hurt victims.

FrancieBrady

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

with a minimum of pain? no, i dont. make people unemployed in an economy as bad as northern irelands is just condemning them to a life on the dole or emigration.

Well, I think, given time, any company can be rationalised without causing massive undue pain. The public service is no different.
And if time needs to be given, so be it.

ohnonotgmail

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well, I think, given time, any company can be rationalised without causing massive undue pain. The public service is no different.
And if time needs to be given, so be it.

the public service is very different from a regular company. to think otherwise is just wishful thinking. why dont we give it 40 years? I'll probably be dead by then. or beyond caring if i'm not .

FrancieBrady

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the public service is very different from a regular company. to think otherwise is just wishful thinking. why dont we give it 40 years? I'll probably be dead by then. or beyond caring if i'm not .

I could be persuaded to wait that long if the transition would be smoother but we need a decision on it soon, before NI descends further.
I wouldn't be as selfish as you, I care about what the future holds for my offspring.

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well, I think, given time, any company can be rationalised without causing massive undue pain. The public service is no different.
And if time needs to be given, so be it.

What a joke......

Have a look again at this graph......



You really think that the Republic didn't endure any pain to get from the peak in 2010 to where we are now?

And NI would be starting from a higher and more persistent level of deficit.

Just when you think Shinnernomics has plumbed the absolute depths of fantasy, something like this comes up - that you can somehow plug a deficit equivalent of 25% of GDP in an economy almost 50% dependent on public spending without causing pain :D:D:D

ohnonotgmail

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I could be persuaded to wait that long if the transition would be smoother but we need a decision on it soon, before NI descends further.
I wouldn't be as selfish as you, I care about what the future holds for my offspring.

so we need to unite now with the north before it becomes a bigger basket case? you're really selling it.

ohnonotgmail

Jawgap wrote: »

What a joke......

Have a look again at this graph......



You really think that the Republic didn't endure any pain to get from the peak in 2010 to where we are now?

And NI would be starting from a higher and more persistent level of deficit.

Just when you think Shinnernomics has plumbed the absolute depths of fantasy, something like this comes up - that you can somehow plug a deficit equivalent of 25% of GDP in an economy almost 50% dependent on public spending without causing pain :D:D:D

they can just punitively tax the rich. rich being defined as anybody who earns more than SF think is right.

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

What a joke......

Have a look again at this graph......



You really think that the Republic didn't endure any pain to get from the peak in 2010 to where we are now?

And NI would be starting from a higher and more persistent level of deficit.

Just when you think Shinnernomics has plumbed the absolute depths of fantasy, something like this comes up - that you can somehow plug a deficit equivalent of 25% of GDP in an economy almost 50% dependent on public spending without causing pain :D:D:D

Where did I say that the south's problems were fixed without pain???

What I said was,(why do I have to keep doing this) the public service in NI could be (it has to be) fixed, given time, over a given period of time. (decide for yourself how long it would take) with a MINIMUM of pain.

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I am not an economist, expert or amateur, but shouldn't the figure being bandied about(we have seen 8bn 9bn 10bn and 12 bn mentioned here. Why 11bn wasn't, I am not sure, maybe it doesn't sound scary enough) not be the figure arrived at when you subtract contributions to central UK expenditure?

What is the breakdown of that figure, what is not needed?
What can be achieved by streamlining/rationalising NI's public service.
Why is it that the subvention has risen dramatically since the GFA, almost 4bn I think since the mid 90's.

So many things that cannot be answered or supplied here. Can you explain that dramatic rise in the subvention since the mid 90's?

That is the figure less the contributions - it is a fiscal deficit, not a notional one.

From the NI Assembly's Research and Information Sevice

......the Budget describes the NI fiscal deficit as follows:
The taxes generated within Northern Ireland are considerably less than the level of funding received from HM Treasury.

This shortfall is known as the fiscal deficit and in 2011-12 it was estimated to be £9.6 billion.

FrancieBrady

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

so we need to unite now with the north before it becomes a bigger basket case? you're really selling it.

Eh?

In the event of a vote, are you under the delusion that a UI will happen overnight? More scare stuff. Of course it won't, a timescale will have to be arrived at.

ohnonotgmail

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Where did I say that the south's problems were fixed without pain???

What I said was,(why do I have to keep doing this) the public service in NI could be (it has to be) fixed, given time, over a given period of time. (decide for yourself how long it would take) with a MINIMUM of pain.

how could they do this? you have thought this through then?

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

That is the figure less the contributions - it is a fiscal deficit, not a notional one.

From the NI Assembly's Research and Information Sevice

As I said, we need much much more detail than a graph.

As a matter of interest, why the massive rise since the GFA? Do you know?

ohnonotgmail

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Eh?

In the event of a vote, are you under the delusion that a UI will happen overnight? More scare stuff. Of course it won't, a timescale will have to be arrived at.

go and fix the problems in the north and then talk about a united ireland. a united ireland will not fix those problems. until then the discussion is nonsense.

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Where did I say that the south's problems were fixed without pain???

What I said was,(why do I have to keep doing this) the public service in NI could be (it has to be) fixed, given time, over a given period of time. (decide for yourself how long it would take) with a MINIMUM of pain.

So, how much to make 50% of public servants redundant - to bring public numbers into line with the Republic?

Plus, we don't need to wait for a UI for this to happen - Stormont could start now. It could put its big boy pants on, start cutting the deficit - which would reduce the block grant by the half billion or so required to get control of Corporation Tax - slash the rate of tax then reap some benefit from the growth that will bring......you don't need a UI to do that, just politicians interested in governing instead of grandstanding.

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

As I said, we need much much more detail than a graph.

As a matter of interest, why the massive rise since the GFA? Do you know?

yes.

FrancieBrady

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

how could they do this? you have thought this through then?

Early retirement incentives, no new recruitment, moving people who wish to go. And also, unfortunately, redundancies, which are going to happen anyway.
On top of that there is no particular reason that NI cannot become more productive, in agriculture and manufacturing. Investment and incentives will bring changes too.

The system has to change, we all agree on that. These things need to be done anyway if NI is not to get worse.

gozunda

Does opposing a United Ireland automatically make you unpatriotic?

Would that be a political question?

Bridge93

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

they can just punitively tax the rich. rich being defined as anybody who earns more than SF think is right.

This is the problem. In one sense they may be right. Our super rich could potentially be higher taxed as they pay less than a lot of countries.

The issue is Sinn Fein seem deluded as to how many people actually exist in this wealth bracket and the money they will contribute. Taxing them more won't fill any shortage they feel there is and may drive them off these shores.

They won't do it as it's the majority of their vote but if Sinn Fein want to increase government revenue to fund projects like this they need to be looking at the other end of the income ladder. We've one of the narrowest tax bases in the world. An enormous amount of working people pay no income tax at all.

This squeezes the middle and high earners hard and creates an entitlement among some low earners that the govt need provide everything for them while they contribute next to nothing. We hear a lot of complaints about equality in Irish society but that's not fair either. In most other countries everyone contributes no matter how small the amount is.

We don't have the money to support a unification until either the North sorts its house out or we start generating huge amounts of new revenue to pump in