Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

molloyjh

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Because when we talk about those we don't have Leinster fans descending on the thread and dragging the discussion on and on by telling us we are wrong to make those criticisms.

If we weren't still bloody arguing about Les Kiss we could be talking about the U19 development team that beat Canada last week, with players from Lettekenny and Newry RFC, and what a talent Callum Reid could be at LH.

Instead, we're defending our criticisms of Les Kiss from multiple Leinster fans.

I'd rather call myself a rugby fan on this thread than get provincial about it tbh.

Also, am I not trying to drag the conversation away from Kiss by talking about other issues besides Kiss? Isn't my point quite explicitly that Ulster fans should be talking about other things?

prawnsambo

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Because when we talk about those we don't have Leinster fans descending on the thread and dragging the discussion on and on by telling us we are wrong to make those criticisms.

If we weren't still bloody arguing about Les Kiss we could be talking about the U19 development team that beat Canada last week, with players from Lettekenny and Newry RFC, and what a talent Callum Reid could be at LH.

Instead, we're defending our criticisms of Les Kiss from multiple Leinster fans.

Can't we be Ulster fans too? I certainly am. I watch as many Ulster games as I can and don't think I've missed one in the last couple of months.

I'm sure Munster fans won't like me saying this, but I was supporting Ulster in that interpro. I was delighted with that win.

bilston

prawnsambo wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

Being a glass half full man I thought I'd point out a positive stat.

Last season we scored 68 tries in 22 league matches, this season we have scored 43 in 12 which means we are on course to score 75 tries in 21 games this season. So obviously our attack has improved this year, and that's without our much vaunted half back pairing of Pienaar and Jackson.

I'd have to temper that by pointing out that the law changes have led to more tries being scored.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

Well by the same token maybe that explains why our defence isn't as good as it was?

prawnsambo

bilston wrote: »

Well by the same token maybe that explains why our defence isn't as good as it was?

It seems to be a factor all over, yeah.

Leinster and Munster are already close to the number of tries conceded in the whole of the 2015/16 season.

Paul Smeenus

No. You don't drag a conversation away from Les Kiss by starting with "you are wrong in criticising Les Kiss". Though your posts are obviously more nuanced than that

"Did anyone see the U19 game?"
"Did anyone see the Bryn Cunningham interview with him namechecking some of the young forwards? Are any of them likely to make it?"
"Haven't you guys given more starts to Academy forwards this season already than any season under Clarke?"

Any of that would move it on. Instead, it feels like buzzers go off on desks all over Dublin when Ulster fans start posting on this thread about Kiss. "Quick - to boards.ie! Someone is grumbling about Les' rotation policy!"

sydthebeat

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

No. You don't drag a conversation away from Les Kiss by starting with "you are wrong in criticising Les Kiss". Though your posts are obviously more nuanced than that

"Did anyone see the U19 game?"
"Did anyone see the Bryn Cunningham interview with him namechecking some of the young forwards? Are any of them likely to make it?"
"Haven't you guys given more starts to Academy forwards this season already than any season under Clarke?"

Any of that would move it on. Instead, it feels like buzzers go off on desks all over Dublin when Ulster fans start posting on this thread about Kiss. "Quick - to boards.ie! Someone is grumbling about Les' rotation policy!"

sounds like you think an unbiased opinion is worth less than a biased one.

bilston

Alright then...

Any breakthrough players (ie players who by the end of 2018 will be regulars in the matchday squad) expected in 2018?

2 and maybe 3 for me...

Adam McBurney, Rob Lyttle and possibly Matthew Dalton. Not sure about Dalton just because he is VERY young, but his time will come, it's hard to explain but in his two cameos so far he has just looked at home at Pro 14 level. Jonny Stewart might be another.

Hopefully by the end of the year we will begin to see the Academy pay off.

irishfan9

certainly noticeable how much ulster PR team are trying to promote that there are ulster players coming through academy.. just need time

bilston

irishfan9 wrote: »

certainly noticeable how much ulster PR team are trying to promote that there are ulster players coming through academy.. just need time

Aye I saw a piece with your favourite Ulster 10 Michael Lowry today

prawnsambo

bilston wrote: »

Alright then...

Any breakthrough players (ie players who by the end of 2018 will be regulars in the matchday squad) expected in 2018?

2 and maybe 3 for me...

Adam McBurney, Rob Lyttle and possibly Matthew Dalton. Not sure about Dalton just because he is VERY young, but his time will come, it's hard to explain but in his two cameos so far he has just looked at home at Pro 14 level. Jonny Stewart might be another.

Hopefully by the end of the season we will begin to see the Academy pay off.

The little I saw of him in his cameo and from what I saw in the U20s makes me feel that Jonny McPhillips could also be in that number.

awec

The next three games will be the telling thing for the young players. Probably our three hardest games of the season.

How much will they be involved and will they be able to have an impact?

bilston

prawnsambo wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

Alright then...

Any breakthrough players (ie players who by the end of 2018 will be regulars in the matchday squad) expected in 2018?

2 and maybe 3 for me...

Adam McBurney, Rob Lyttle and possibly Matthew Dalton. Not sure about Dalton just because he is VERY young, but his time will come, it's hard to explain but in his two cameos so far he has just looked at home at Pro 14 level. Jonny Stewart might be another.

Hopefully by the end of the season we will begin to see the Academy pay off.

The little I saw of him in his cameo and from what I saw in the U20s makes me feel that Jonny McPhillips could also be in that number.

Yeah possibly, I forgot about him. Actually thinking about it as things stand he will see a lot of gametime between now and the end of the season.

awec

bilston wrote: »

Yeah possibly, I forgot about him. Actually thinking about it as things stand he will see a lot of gametime between now and the end of the season.

Thinks cannot go on as they stand right now.

It would be bad for both Ulster and McPhillips if he suddenly becomes a crucial player at the end of January.

Paul Smeenus

Would really like to see O'Hagan get a cap. Seems to have some real dog about him. Simpson looked like he could fill the bench on occasion.

Would really like to have seen Kane leapfrog Ah You, and disappointed we're not further along that road. They do seem to be much more cautious in bringing through props. Completely understandable, but very hard not to feel impatient.

prawnsambo

awec wrote: »

Thinks cannot go on as they stand right now.

It would be bad for both Ulster and McPhillips if he suddenly becomes a crucial player at the end of January.

Yeah. Wouldn't be ideal to have that level of responsibility thrust on him at this stage.

What are the alternatives? Steve Crosbie to complete his collection of provincial jerseys?

bilston

awec wrote: »

The next three games will be the telling thing for the young players. Probably our three hardest games of the season.

How much will they be involved and will they be able to have an impact?

Not that I really think of him as a young player given he is arguably our best player, but I don't have any concerns over Stockdale.

Big couple of games for Treadwell though.

Of the rest it will be interesting if they get a chance. Lyttle might bench, as may McPhillips. Rea and Timoney will be there or thereabouts.

awec

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yeah. Wouldn't be ideal to have that level of responsibility thrust on him at this stage.

What are the alternatives? Steve Crosbie to complete his collection of provincial jerseys?

Another short term joker signing for the rest of the season with news hopefully coming of PJ at the end of January. Then another signing for next year if needed.

I am not convinced by McPhilips but he deserves his chance and hopefully can force his way onto the bench for a few league games.

bilston

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Would really like to see O'Hagan get a cap. Seems to have some real dog about him. Simpson looked like he could fill the bench on occasion.

Would really like to have seen Kane leapfrog Ah You, and disappointed we're not further along that road. They do seem to be much more cautious in bringing through props. Completely understandable, but very hard not to feel impatient.

Kane was injured for quite a while. It may take him a bit of time to find his form.

bilston

awec wrote: »

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yeah. Wouldn't be ideal to have that level of responsibility thrust on him at this stage.

What are the alternatives? Steve Crosbie to complete his collection of provincial jerseys?

Another short term joker signing for the rest of the season with news hopefully coming of PJ at the end of January. Then another signing for next year if needed.

I am not convinced by McPhilips but he deserves his chance and hopefully can force his way onto the bench for a few league games.

Yeah, you'd rather he was broken in gentley rather than thrown in at the deep end.

If we end up with Cooney at 10 I will be furious.

jacothelad

prawnsambo wrote: »

I suspect that he's at a standard that's capable at international level, but that's his ceiling.

So, not above international standard? Now who has ever claied such stardom?

sydthebeat wrote: »

sounds like you think an unbiased opinion is worth less than a biased one.

Where would you find one of those?

prawnsambo

bilston wrote: »

Yeah, you'd rather he was broken in gentley rather than thrown in at the deep end.

If we end up with Cooney at 10 I will be furious.

I've a feeling that happened at Connacht when they had broken all their out halfs a year or so ago. But it was very short term, if it happened at all.

Hard to see where a short term joker could come from. I suppose the PTB are scouring the world for just such a beast.

prawnsambo

jacothelad wrote: »

So, not above international standard? Now who has ever claied such stardom?

They have strange notions in Cork.

stephen_n

awec wrote: »

Come off it stephen.

Every man, woman, dog and goldfish could see that McCall and Ah You were not fit and absolutely annihilated in the first half against Munster which contributed massively to one of the most embarrassing and poor performances Ulster have put in in many, many years. Johnno Gibbes also deserves some flak for this but ultimately Kiss is Gibbes' boss, Kiss is the DoR and Kiss is the one ultimately responsible for team selection.

There are not enough straws in the universe for us to grasp at to try and make up excuses about Kiss and his stupid selections.

I wouldn’t attempt to defend kiss’s selections, I think Ulster fans have every reason to be bemused and upset by that. There is plenty of reason to give out about him there. Then again the fact is those players inclusion also underline the problems of not being able to replace under performing players, because that’s what’s next in line.

Ultimately the lack of attempt to blood young players is the part I really don’t understand and maybe is the reason he might go.

irishfan9

bilston wrote: »

Aye I saw a piece with your favourite Ulster 10 Michael Lowry today

seen that myself.

prawnsambo

stephen_n wrote: »

I wouldn’t attempt to defend kiss’s selections, I think Ulster fans have every reason to be bemused and upset by that. There is plenty of reason to give out about him there. Then again the fact is those players inclusion also underline the problems of not being able to replace under performing players, because that’s what’s next in line.

Ultimately the lack of attempt to blood young players is the part I really don’t understand and maybe is the reason he might go.

I wouldn't attempt to defend them, but I would attempt to understand them.

For example, starting the players returning from injury instead of benching them. That's a common selection decision because you can't risk your returning player getting crocked, having come off the bench. Better that they get crocked when you've somebody to replace them.

Also, five of the academy lads were capped so far this season. Sixteen caps between them so far.

awec

Black
Best
Ah you
Browne
Henderson
Reidy
Rea
Deysel
Stewart
Lealiffano
Stockdale
Mccloskey
Cave
Trimble
Piutau

From the in-the-know on UAFC. That team selection makes me want to tear my hair out if it's true.

prawnsambo

awec wrote: »

Black
Best
Ah you
Browne
Henderson
Reidy
Rea
Deysel
Stewart
Lealiffano
Stockdale
Mccloskey
Cave
Trimble
Piutau

From the in-the-know on UAFC. That team selection makes me want to tear my hair out if it's true.

Genuine question. What's wrong with that selection? Cooney clearly needs a break and Black was good off the bench. Pete Browne is the only surprise there for me. Been gone for ages afair.

bilston

awec wrote: »

Black
Best
Ah you
Browne
Henderson
Reidy
Rea
Deysel
Stewart
Lealiffano
Stockdale
Mccloskey
Cave
Trimble
Piutau

From the in-the-know on UAFC. That team selection makes me want to tear my hair out if it's true.

To be honest I'm pretty happy with that. While I would definitely have played Cooney, he was never playing 3 games in a row. I'd rather see Stewart start than Marshall or Shannahan.

I don't know why Treadwell/O'Connor and Herbst aren't playing though. That baffles me. I can only assume they are injured.

awec

prawnsambo wrote: »

Genuine question. What's wrong with that selection? Cooney clearly needs a break and Black was good off the bench. Pete Browne is the only surprise there for me. Been gone for ages afair.

Pete Browne hasn't played a game since September but is jettisoned in to start against Leinster?

Stewart appears out of nowhere to start a game.

Ah You retained despite being crap.

Deysel retained despite being crap.

Trimble brought in over Lyttle.


Maybe injuries will explain this when it's actually announced (if this is indeed true), otherwise it's pretty frustrating at face value right now.

prawnsambo

awec wrote: »

Pete Browne hasn't played a game since September but is jettisoned in to start against Leinster?

Stewart appears out of nowhere to start a game.

Ah You retained despite being crap.

Deysel retained despite being crap.

Trimble brought in over Lyttle.

Maybe injuries will explain this when it's actually announced (if this is indeed true), otherwise it's pretty frustrating at face value right now.

Pete Browne may have been doing work ons with the As. I was woindering was he gone forever, but obviously he's back in consideration.

Guys returning from long injury layoffs are always rusty. You don't get rid of rust on the training piitch. Deysel is hardly crap as a baseline.

Somebody needs to deputise for Cooney. He's played seven games on the trot.

Lyttle probably injured himself with that swan dive.

Edit: Treadwell has started 11 games this season and benched 2, O'Connor 12. Out of 16. Somebody else has to step up. Those guys will break.