Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

stephen_n

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Because Ulster fans who have been watching many of these players for a few years have seen them cope admirablywith previous defensive systems (including under Barakat not long ago) and international defensive systems, are sceptical about the idea that these players have suddenly become unable to execute a workable defensive system, and are more.minded that the defensive problems are with the system itself, given how extreme the difference on defensive quality has been.

It want long ago Mike McComish,Lewis Stevenson, Michael Allen, Ian Humphreys (!) and Conor Joyce were regularly part of much more robust defence from Ulster.

Do you think Kiss is telling them to go out and tackle like a bunch of girls, who’ve just got their nails done and are afraid they’ll chip them? Lack of line speed isn’t a type of defence. Also using a more passive defence should insure more accuracy in the tackle area, not less. Again maybe Kiss lacks the ability to motivate the team properly, as did Doak, anscombe, Williams etc before him. Who will come in that can motivate them?

prawnsambo

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Because Ulster fans who have been watching many of these players for a few years have seen them cope admirablywith previous defensive systems (including under Barakat not long ago) and international defensive systems, are sceptical about the idea that these players have suddenly become unable to execute a workable defensive system, and are more.minded that the defensive problems are with the system itself, given how extreme the difference on defensive quality has been.

It want long ago Mike McComish,Lewis Stevenson, Michael Allen, Ian Humphreys (!) and Conor Joyce were regularly part of much more robust defence from Ulster.

But it's not happening in a bubble. There have been changes to the laws that have favoured attack more than defense. Changes to the breakdown laws just this season have made it easier for attacking teams. More tries are being scored across the board. Some teams have adapted better than others, but all have seen an increase in tries conceded. Jaco mentioned Bell who went to Gloucester as defense caoch. Gloucester have conceded 35 tries this season so far. Closer to home, Leinster have conceded 23 and Munster 25. Two seasons ago, Leinster conceded just 27 in the entire league season.

And then throw in the huge injury and other losses that Ulster have suffered. Top class players Like Jared Payne, PJ, Olding, Coetzee and Rory Best, who's had two starts all season. Not to mention that other players have missed huge chunks of the season. Experienced guys like Gilroy, Luke Marshall, McCall, Simpson, Ah You etc. And then (as you say) the likes of Henderson, knackered after a Lions tour.

I don't honestly see how you can get any continuity in anything with that kind of buther's bill to deal with. This time last year, Connacht suffered a similar injury crisis and even though they eventually got on top of it, they finished the season having shipped 61 tries.

Paul Smeenus

Think you'll find we had the best defence in the league under Jonny Bell /McLaughlin, and it was excellent under Anscomb. And it was markedly better a couple of years ago under Doak. Don't confuse this whole "underperforming Ulster" thing with actual factual analysis of our defence. Les Kiss is apparently a specialist defensive coach and our defence has never been as poor. We didn't look unmotivated a few years ago. Not winning silverware does not equal not being motivated. You're just flailing about now. We get it, you don't like us blaming Kiss. You are trying g so hard to exonerate him you're just talking nonsense.

Paul Smeenus

My reply was to Stephen N, obvs.

It can t come down to definite decisions, Prawn. The decision to start McCall, Deysel, Ah You and Jones in one pack against Munster was ludicrous. McCall and Deysel has both misses two months of rugby each. Jones was getting his second cap. That's poor coaching.

prawnsambo

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Think you'll find we had the best defence in the league under Jonny Bell /McLaughlin, and it was excellent under Anscomb. And it was markedly better a couple of years ago under Doak. Don't confuse this whole "underperforming Ulster" thing with actual factual analysis of our defence. Les Kiss is apparently a specialist defensive coach and our defence has never been as poor. We didn't look unmotivated a few years ago. Not winning silverware does not equal not being motivated. You're just flailing about now. We get it, you don't like us blaming Kiss. You are trying g so hard to exonerate him you're just talking nonsense.

The above is an exact example of what you're accusing me of. :rolleyes:

No facts, no background, no research, just "you like Les Kiss and therefore you're wrong". If Bell was such a great defence coach, how come Gloucester have shipped 35 tries this season so far? And I don't for a minute think he's the problem there, just using the same criteria that others are using to lambast Kiss..

I have no particular love for Les Kiss. I don't care one way or another. But for the last few years, all I've heard from Ulster posters is "get rid of coach X and the problems will be solved". It was Doak and Clarke that were poison the last tme around and now that they've gone, it's Kiss and when he goes it will be Gibbes.

Edit: Ignore the above, I wish you'd quote the poster you're replyinig to.

prawnsambo

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

My reply was to Stephen N, obvs.

It can t come down to definite decisions, Prawn. The decision to start McCall, Deysel, Ah You and Jones in one pack against Munster was ludicrous. McCall and Deysel has both misses two months of rugby each. Jones was getting his second cap. That's poor coaching.

It's almost always the case that you start the players who are just coming back from injury rather than bench them. That way, you have a ready replacement if the injury recurs early. Because if you bring them on later and the injury recurs, you are in deep doodoo.

Jones was on his fourth cap. He benched against Benetton, started against Dragons and Connacht. Who else was available?

Edit: Just to add on Les Kiss. My only thoughts on Kiss are coloured largely by the high opinion the likes of Joe Schmidt had of him and the fact that; unusually, he was retained by Schmidt after having come in and worked under Declan Kidney. Mostly new coaches clear out the old team when contracts run out. Kiss's contract was renewed during Shmidt's tenure. He was in place as defence coach for three 6N championship wins, including a GS.

molloyjh

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Because Ulster fans who have been watching many of these players for a few years have seen them cope admirablywith previous defensive systems (including under Barakat not long ago) and international defensive systems, are sceptical about the idea that these players have suddenly become unable to execute a workable defensive system, and are more.minded that the defensive problems are with the system itself, given how extreme the difference on defensive quality has been.

It want long ago Mike McComish,Lewis Stevenson, Michael Allen, Ian Humphreys (!) and Conor Joyce were regularly part of much more robust defence from Ulster.

So wait, you're saying it can't be the players fault because they've proven themselves in the past. It must be the coaches fault despite the fact that he's proven himself in the past (and at a higher level than almost all of the guys he's working with at Ulster). Is that correct?

What I'm seeing here is a massive lack of reason or rationale. Personally I haven't a clue who is to blame for this. But I think it's more than fair that, while so many are questioning the coach, that a few question the players too. Especially in light of the fact that this isn't the first coach that Ulster fans have wanted shot of because their teams performances weren't good enough. The common denominator in that scenario is the players.

bilston

Being a glass half full man I thought I'd point out a positive stat.

Last season we scored 68 tries in 22 league matches, this season we have scored 43 in 12 which means we are on course to score 75 tries in 21 games this season. So obviously our attack has improved this year, and that's without our much vaunted half back pairing of Pienaar and Jackson.

DGRulz

Does Payne lead Ulster's defense the way he does Ireland's?

prawnsambo

bilston wrote: »

Being a glass half full man I thought I'd point out a positive stat.

Last season we scored 68 tries in 22 league matches, this season we have scored 43 in 12 which means we are on course to score 75 tries in 21 games this season. So obviously our attack has improved this year, and that's without our much vaunted half back pairing of Pienaar and Jackson.

I'd have to temper that by pointing out that the law changes have led to more tries being scored.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

Paul Smeenus

molloyjh wrote: »

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Because Ulster fans who have been watching many of these players for a few years have seen them cope admirablywith previous defensive systems (including under Barakat not long ago) and international defensive systems, are sceptical about the idea that these players have suddenly become unable to execute a workable defensive system, and are more.minded that the defensive problems are with the system itself, given how extreme the difference on defensive quality has been.

It want long ago Mike McComish,Lewis Stevenson, Michael Allen, Ian Humphreys (!) and Conor Joyce were regularly part of much more robust defence from Ulster.

So wait, you're saying it can't be the players fault because they've proven themselves in the past. It must be the coaches fault despite the fact that he's proven himself in the past (and at a higher level than almost all of the guys he's working with at Ulster). Is that correct?

What I'm seeing here is a massive lack of reason or rationale. Personally I haven't a clue who is to blame for this. But I think it's more than fair that, while so many are questioning the coach, that a few question the players too. Especially in light of the fact that this isn't the first coach that Ulster fans have wanted shot of because their teams performances weren't good enough. The common denominator in that scenario is the players.

Really?

What has Les achieved as a Head Coach before? That's his role (titles notwithstanding). It's his first time as a Head Coach and his defence coaching is suffering. Is that really such an unreasonable observation?

Every Leinster poster on this Ulster thread has the same refrain -"I'm fed up hearing Ulster fans blah blah blah". So I think that a lot of the "analysis" has more to do with exasperation at Ulster fans and our scapegoating than actual understanding of what the problems are. Which is possibly fair enough but a) posters are going g to call you on the obvious gaps in your logic, and b) don't red the Ulster thread then.

Paul Smeenus

molloyjh wrote: »

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Because Ulster fans who have been watching many of these players for a few years have seen them cope admirablywith previous defensive systems (including under Barakat not long ago) and international defensive systems, are sceptical about the idea that these players have suddenly become unable to execute a workable defensive system, and are more.minded that the defensive problems are with the system itself, given how extreme the difference on defensive quality has been.

It want long ago Mike McComish,Lewis Stevenson, Michael Allen, Ian Humphreys (!) and Conor Joyce were regularly part of much more robust defence from Ulster.

So wait, you're saying it can't be the players fault because they've proven themselves in the past. It must be the coaches fault despite the fact that he's proven himself in the past (and at a higher level than almost all of the guys he's working with at Ulster). Is that correct?

What I'm seeing here is a massive lack of reason or rationale. Personally I haven't a clue who is to blame for this. But I think it's more than fair that, while so many are questioning the coach, that a few question the players too. Especially in light of the fact that this isn't the first coach that Ulster fans have wanted shot of because their teams performances weren't good enough. The common denominator in that scenario is the players.

Did the fans want rid of Williams?
Did the fans want rid of Anscomb?
Did the fans want rid of McLaughlin?

prawnsambo

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Did the fans want rid of Williams?
Did the fans want rid of Anscomb?
Did the fans want rid of McLaughlin?

Does it actually matter a damn what the fans want?

Semi serious (if rhetorical) question there. I very much doubt that the PTB in Ulster Towers give a tupenny's worth for what the fans think. Unless it's a stick they can use to beat somebody over the head with. :rolleyes:

stephen_n

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

My reply was to Stephen N, obvs.

It can t come down to definite decisions, Prawn. The decision to start McCall, Deysel, Ah You and Jones in one pack against Munster was ludicrous. McCall and Deysel has both misses two months of rugby each. Jones was getting his second cap. That's poor coaching.

Coincidently the best defensive performance of the season?

I’ve no particular interest in Kiss staying or going, though to me he is just a scapegoat for a piss poor group of players.

awec

stephen_n wrote: »

Coincidently the best defensive performance of the season?

I’ve no particular interest in Kiss staying or going, though to me he is just a scapegoat for a piss poor group of players.

Come off it stephen.

Every man, woman, dog and goldfish could see that McCall and Ah You were not fit and absolutely annihilated in the first half against Munster which contributed massively to one of the most embarrassing and poor performances Ulster have put in in many, many years. Johnno Gibbes also deserves some flak for this but ultimately Kiss is Gibbes' boss, Kiss is the DoR and Kiss is the one ultimately responsible for team selection.

There are not enough straws in the universe for us to grasp at to try and make up excuses about Kiss and his stupid selections.

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

So wait, you're saying it can't be the players fault because they've proven themselves in the past. It must be the coaches fault despite the fact that he's proven himself in the past (and at a higher level than almost all of the guys he's working with at Ulster). Is that correct?

What I'm seeing here is a massive lack of reason or rationale. Personally I haven't a clue who is to blame for this. But I think it's more than fair that, while so many are questioning the coach, that a few question the players too. Especially in light of the fact that this isn't the first coach that Ulster fans have wanted shot of because their teams performances weren't good enough. The common denominator in that scenario is the players.

I keep seeing this on here and I find it really confusing.

Are you under the impression that Ulster fans don't know that we have lots of rubbish players? Do you think we are criticising Kiss because we think the players are beyond critique? Or that we feel like we have to protect the players.

Do you think that we believe removing Kiss is going to just magically fix all our issues?

Ulster have lots of rubbish players. We also have a rubbish head coach. We can talk about the later without having to waffle on about players every single time as well. Kiss has had his chance to fix the player problems at Ulster and has failed spectacularly.

prawnsambo

awec wrote: »

Come off it stephen.

Every man, woman, dog and goldfish could see that McCall and Ah You were not fit and absolutely annihilated in the first half against Munster which contributed massively to one of the most embarrassing and poor performances Ulster have put in in many, many years. Johnno Gibbes also deserves some flak for this but ultimately Kiss is Gibbes' boss, Kiss is the DoR and Kiss is the one ultimately responsible for team selection.

There are not enough straws in the universe for us to grasp at to try and make up excuses about Kiss and his stupid selections.

It's not unusual to start guys coming back from injury rather than have them on the bench. You could be left in the position of having your bench players break down on the pitch, leaving you with nothing to replace them with.

Paul Smeenus

prawnsambo wrote: »

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Did the fans want rid of Williams?
Did the fans want rid of Anscomb?
Did the fans want rid of McLaughlin?

Does it actually matter a damn what the fans want?

Semi serious (if rhetorical) question there. I very much doubt that the PTB in Ulster Towers give a tupenny's worth for what the fans think. Unless it's a stick they can use to beat somebody over the head with. :rolleyes:

Sorry, I was just responding to Molly's assertion that he's sick of Ulster fans wanting rid of coaches. So whether or not anyone in Ulster Towers listens is completely irrelevant. It's about Molloy's mischaracterisation of what Ulster fans have wanted or called for.

Doak and Clarke we wanted rid of, (I see Ospreys are feeling the benefit of Clarke's coaching.) If you're going to invent Ulster fans calling for every coach to go then I can obviously see why you're sick of it. 

But the remedy is to stop imagining it.

awec

prawnsambo wrote: »

It's not unusual to start guys coming back from injury rather than have them on the bench. You could be left in the position of having your bench players break down on the pitch, leaving you with nothing to replace them with.

Why wait until HT to replace them?

He could have asked Ethel the tea lady 10 minutes into the match what he should do and she would have told him the two props were about as useful as tits on a bull and he should haul them both off.

Paul Smeenus

stephen_n wrote: »

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

My reply was to Stephen N, obvs.

It can t come down to definite decisions, Prawn. The decision to start McCall, Deysel, Ah You and Jones in one pack against Munster was ludicrous. McCall and Deysel has both misses two months of rugby each. Jones was getting his second cap. That's poor coaching.

Coincidently the best defensive performance of the season?

I’ve no particular interest in Kiss staying or going, though to me he is just a scapegoat for a piss poor group of players.

McCall, Ah Your and Deysel on - concede 17 points from mauls and scrums in one half.

Black, Herbst and Rea on - concede no points at all.

awec

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

McCall, Ah Your and Deysel on - concede 17 points from mauls and scrums in one half.

Black, Herbst and Rea on - concede no points at all.

Should have been a lot more than 17 points too, lucky Hanrahan couldn't kick snow off a rope.

Paul Smeenus

awec wrote: »

molloyjh wrote: »

So wait, you're saying it can't be the players fault because they've proven themselves in the past. It must be the coaches fault despite the fact that he's proven himself in the past (and at a higher level than almost all of the guys he's working with at Ulster). Is that correct?

What I'm seeing here is a massive lack of reason or rationale. Personally I haven't a clue who is to blame for this. But I think it's more than fair that, while so many are questioning the coach, that a few question the players too. Especially in light of the fact that this isn't the first coach that Ulster fans have wanted shot of because their teams performances weren't good enough. The common denominator in that scenario is the players.

I keep seeing this on here and I find it really confusing.

Are you under the impression that Ulster fans don't know that we have lots of rubbish players? Do you think we are criticising Kiss because we think the players are beyond critique? Or that we feel like we have to protect the players.

Do you think that we believe removing Kiss is going to just magically fix all our issues?

Ulster have lots of rubbish players. We also have a rubbish head coach. We can talk about the later without having to waffle on about players every single time as well. Kiss has had his chance to fix the player problems at Ulster and has failed spectacularly.

No - don't you understand? Because Leinster are a better team than Ulster, their fans know more about rugby than us, and more about what's wrong with Ulster.

prawnsambo

awec wrote: »

Why wait until HT to replace them?

He could have asked Ethel the tea lady 10 minutes into the match what he should do and she would have told him the two props were about as useful as tits on a bull and he should haul them both off.

Yeah, it was obvious they were being minced. But it's a balancing act as to how much time you should give your bench players if they're already a bit knackered from having had multiple starts in the last couple of months due to the others being injured.

And tactically, you don't give the opposition an opportunity to plan and execute a plan B at half time to negate any postives from your replacements. The game was won let's not forget. With a bonus point at the death. In terms of outcomes, it was probably beyond anything anybody could have dreamed of at half time.

I'm not suggesting any tactical genius on Kiss's behalf, or Gibbes' for that matter. But I'm no tactical genius either and that's what I would have done. In fact I suggested they stay out of the arm wrestle and keep the ball, in the match thread just after half time. And that's what they did.

Paul Smeenus

Yes, without those players.

prawnsambo

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Sorry, I was just responding to Molly's assertion that he's sick of Ulster fans wanting rid of coaches. So whether or not anyone in Ulster Towers listens is completely irrelevant. It's about Molloy's mischaracterisation of what Ulster fans have wanted or called for.

Doak and Clarke we wanted rid of, (I see Ospreys are feeling the benefit of Clarke's coaching.) If you're going to invent Ulster fans calling for every coach to go then I can obviously see why you're sick of it.

But the remedy is to stop imagining it.

Well they were on here calling for Anscombe's head as well. Threads are now closed, so I can't quote them directly, but here's a page with a few calls for his head from some of the poeple still posting here:

So, Anscombe out anyone?

Well as I said yesterday I'm not sure he can get us over the line in the big games. I think we are ok next season as far as our player roster is concerned and it will likely see a couple more additions before the new season as well. I'm not convinced about Anscombe. Does he even want to be here anyway?
I don't think he does.

I don't see any progress from us since McLaughlin. I would be happy to see him leave in the next few weeks.

And

Not sad to see the back of Anscombe

awec

I will never forgive Anscombe for bollocksing up the Pro12 semi final against Leinster.

Decided to play Payne at 13 despite him playing 15 all season up to that point. Cost us the match.

I think there is a tendency to look back and forget some of the frustrations from previous regimes. Though in fairness I doubt anyone will be looking back at the Kiss era in 5 years time and thinking how great it was.

molloyjh

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Really?

What has Les achieved as a Head Coach before? That's his role (titles notwithstanding). It's his first time as a Head Coach and his defence coaching is suffering. Is that really such an unreasonable observation?

Every Leinster poster on this Ulster thread has the same refrain -"I'm fed up hearing Ulster fans blah blah blah". So I think that a lot of the "analysis" has more to do with exasperation at Ulster fans and our scapegoating than actual understanding of what the problems are. Which is possibly fair enough but a) posters are going g to call you on the obvious gaps in your logic, and b) don't red the Ulster thread then.

Isn't Gibbs the head coach, not Kiss?

I've said numerous times, including in the post you quoted, that I have no idea where the blame lies. I've also said a few times that Kiss' position is likely becoming untenable regardless. What I'm trying to point out is the fact that certain posters here have their sole focus on Kiss.

You talk about gaps in my logic. Look at your post I quoted where you were happy to trust defenders because they had proven themselves before. Yet you're happy to ignore how Kiss has done exactly the same as a defence coach. You then want to talk about his additional responsibilities taking away from his coaching, but you won't consider or discuss the possibility that the players may struggling to adapt to what they are being asked to do.

That some are blaming Kiss for players falling off tackles is just bizarre to me. If a pro player needs to be coached on how to tackle then they are already in serious trouble. But again, a good few here don't want to discuss that.

Against Munster your forwards let you down, not your defence. And that was down to 2 things. A serious lack of good forwards and a mistake in selection by the coach. Kiss at least corrected what he could at half time. Sometimes you just don't know how a player is going to go until you try him. Sure some of Kiss' selections have been a bit daft, but not everything is down to him and him alone.

I'm not at all sick of Ulster fans moaning. I'm sick of some Ulster fans moaning about a part of the problem while ignoring the majority of it. I want to see Ulster do well. Maybe not as much as an Ulster fan would, but I still don't want to see them do badly. But at some point someone is going to have to start putting the right kind of pressure on the right kind of people. Because if Connacht can start developing native talent then Ulster should be well able to. Les Kiss has his issues, but he has a whole lot more pre-existing issues to contend with himself. If he was gone tomorrow Ulster would still have huge issues in their squad, issues with developing native talent and therefore issues getting results. So why is Les Kiss getting so much more air time than those issues?

prawnsambo

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Yes, without those players.

You don't see the tactical genius in lulling Munster into a false sense of security, unleashing the bench and making mincemeat of them after the lads softened them up in the first half?

Seriously though, there was no option but to play them. Who else have you got? And once you decide to do that, it's just a matter of whether they start or bench. And it worked out better starting them. It may have worked benching them, but what's better than a bonus point win over Munster?

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

I keep seeing this on here and I find it really confusing.

Are you under the impression that Ulster fans don't know that we have lots of rubbish players? Do you think we are criticising Kiss because we think the players are beyond critique? Or that we feel like we have to protect the players.

Do you think that we believe removing Kiss is going to just magically fix all our issues?

Ulster have lots of rubbish players. We also have a rubbish head coach. We can talk about the later without having to waffle on about players every single time as well. Kiss has had his chance to fix the player problems at Ulster and has failed spectacularly.

He's had 2 full seasons so far. You don't just turn these issues around in 2 years unless you are allowed (and can afford) to bring in a large volume of foreign talent. An option that isn't open to Ulster. Leinster has the best Academy in the country and arguably in Europe. And we still had a couple of fallow years where we had a dip in talent and depth. Ulster is a 5 year project, possibly more really. And supporters need to be realistic about that.

Leinster supporters often refer to Cheika as the guy who turned things around at Leinster. He came in in 2005 and didn't win anything until 2008. But there had been work going on in the province before that as well. And we were probably starting from a higher base.

Paul Smeenus

molloyjh wrote: »

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Really?

What has Les achieved as a Head Coach before? That's his role (titles notwithstanding). It's his first time as a Head Coach and his defence coaching is suffering. Is that really such an unreasonable observation?

Every Leinster poster on this Ulster thread has the same refrain -"I'm fed up hearing Ulster fans blah blah blah". So I think that a lot of the "analysis" has more to do with exasperation at Ulster fans and our scapegoating than actual understanding of what the problems are. Which is possibly fair enough but a) posters are going g to call you on the obvious gaps in your logic, and b) don't red the Ulster thread then.

Isn't Gibbs the head coach, not Kiss?

I've said numerous times, including in the post you quoted, that I have no idea where the blame lies. I've also said a few times that Kiss' position is likely becoming untenable regardless. What I'm trying to point out is the fact that certain posters here have their sole focus on Kiss.

You talk about gaps in my logic. Look at your post I quoted where you were happy to trust defenders because they had proven themselves before. Yet you're happy to ignore how Kiss has done exactly the same as a defence coach. You then want to talk about his additional responsibilities taking away from his coaching, but you won't consider or discuss the possibility that the players may struggling to adapt to what they are being asked to do.

That some are blaming Kiss for players falling off tackles is just bizarre to me. If a pro player needs to be coached on how to tackle then they are already in serious trouble. But again, a good few here don't want to discuss that.

Against Munster your forwards let you down, not your defence. And that was down to 2 things. A serious lack of good forwards and a mistake in selection by the coach. Kiss at least corrected what he could at half time. Sometimes you just don't know how a player is going to go until you try him. Sure some of Kiss' selections have been a bit daft, but not everything is down to him and him alone.

I'm not at all sick of Ulster fans moaning. I'm sick of some Ulster fans moaning about a part of the problem while ignoring the majority of it. I want to see Ulster do well. Maybe not as much as an Ulster fan would, but I still don't want to see them do badly. But at some point someone is going to have to start putting the right kind of pressure on the right kind of people. Because if Connacht can start developing native talent then Ulster should be well able to. Les Kiss has his issues, but he has a whole lot more pre-existing issues to contend with himself. If he was gone tomorrow Ulster would still have huge issues in their squad, issues with developing native talent and therefore issues getting results. So why is Les Kiss getting so much more air time than those issues?

Because when we talk about those we don't have Leinster fans descending on the thread and dragging the discussion on and on by telling us we are wrong to make those criticisms.

If we weren't still bloody arguing about Les Kiss we could be talking about the U19 development team that beat Canada last week, with players from Lettekenny and Newry RFC, and what a talent Callum Reid could be at LH.

Instead, we're defending our criticisms of Les Kiss from multiple Leinster fans.