So 4 travellers walk into a bar.....

The Fake Sheikh

The Fake Sheikh wrote: »

Rubbish. It’s the nature of travellers.
The reputation didn’t come out of thin air.

I was merely pointing to the obvious, that whenever a group is hated some reason or other is given. And those who agree with the intolerance and bigotry mutter that they kinda deserve it because their reputation was well earned.

So back in the day, those who hated homosexuals would refer to issues about the transient nature of their relationships, immorality, the spread of disease, myths about paedophilia...and you'd have been saying that their reputation didn't come out of thin air...

Omackeral

Deleted User wrote: »

So back in the day, those who hated homosexuals would refer to issues about the transient nature of their relationships, immorality, the spread of disease, myths about paedophilia...and you'd have been saying that their reputation didn't come out of thin air...

Today is what we're speaking about. Nothing else. Why is there, at best, suspicion around Travellers.

Omackeral

Omackeral wrote: »

That didn't answer the question whatsoever. In fact, all you did was repeat it. Speaking strictly about today, why are Travellers the ones who have this dodgy rep in society above everyone else? If everyone that's got negative stuff to say against them is just intolerant and bigoted, they'd have the same feelings towards many other minorities which doesn't seem to be the case on this thread, as many have said they've zero issues with gay/black/whatever people.

Ah come on.

Again, a couple of decades ago, people here hated homosexuals, but probably had never even met black people enough to develop any particular feelings. Did their ambivalence or tolerance of other groups make their bigotry and intolerance of homosexuals sorta more...educated and justifiable?

sbsquarepants

Deleted User wrote: »

Come to South Kerry, Kermit, burn everything you want for as long as you want, tires, hay that's a bit dodgy, rubbish, whole side of mountains and forestries too...you'd be very unlucky to be caught...

Try burning the plastic coating off the copper you've "found" in Tallaght. You'd be very lucky to not get caught, what with the thick black acrid smoke leading the authorities right to you. You know the kind of smoke you see regularly coming from halting sites.

Omackeral

Omackeral wrote: »

Today is what we're speaking about. Nothing else. Why is there, at best, suspicion around Travellers.

They have faced oppression and discrimination for decades. It has been 30 years since the EU said they were the most discriminated against ethnic group in Europe. It hasn't improved. If I was part of that group, at the receiving end of bigotry decade after decade, I'd laugh at your expectation that I should respect your litter laws, your road traffic laws and your education system. Violence, alcoholism...well isn't that how ethnic groups who faced discrimination all over the world have reacted, do you expect some miracle in Ireland whereby the ones we treat with prejudice should learn to love and respect us?

sbsquarepants

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah come on.

Again, a couple of decades ago, people here hated homosexuals, but probably had never even met black people enough to develop any particular feelings. Did their ambivalence or tolerance of other groups make their bigotry and intolerance of homosexuals sorta more...educated and justifiable?

I don't know what people hated decades ago or why they did. All I can tell you is I never hated gays, or foreigners, or northsiders or anyone else. I wouldn't necessarily say I hate travellers, I have just learned from repeated personal experience that as a group they are best avoided. Hate is probably too strong a word, but dislike definitely, distrust absolutely, avoid whenever possible also true.

Everyone I know, who has had any regular dealings with them has come to the same conclusion. Either I know a lot of bigoted people (which I doubt as I see no other evidence of bigotry from them) or travellers are just largely bad eggs.

It seems fairly obvious to me which one is the more likely scenario.

Kimbot

Heres Johnny wrote: »

Thread needs a poll. Who thinks the pub was right?
I know the law doesn't but the law is an ass.
Almost universally hated ethnic group like the Roma gypsies.
Very few, if any, positive qualities to travellers.
Dirty, smelly, littering, inbreeding, family feuding, shooting babies last week, robbing, assaulting, tax dodging, bad workmanship, burglary, crying discrimination, wrecking pubs.

MOD Don't post in this thread again. And keep that kind of hate talk out of AH.

jmayo

Deleted User wrote: »

I always enjoy the whole "travellers drove very fast the other day, if that was you and me there'd be a SWAT team in helicopters" ones.

Come to South Kerry, Kermit, burn everything you want for as long as you want, tires, hay that's a bit dodgy, rubbish, whole side of mountains and forestries too...you'd be very unlucky to be caught...

South Kerry is a different fooking universe.
How else can one explain the healy raes and your old buddy john "the bull" ?

Deleted User wrote: »

They have faced oppression and discrimination for decades. It has been 30 years since the EU said they were the most discriminated against ethnic group in Europe. It hasn't improved. If I was part of that group, at the receiving end of bigotry decade after decade, I'd laugh at your expectation that I should respect your litter laws, your road traffic laws and your education system. Violence, alcoholism...well isn't that how ethnic groups who faced discrimination all over the world have reacted, do you expect some miracle in Ireland whereby the ones we treat with prejudice should learn to love and respect us?

So does that mean in retribution they should target old people living on their own and at best wrangle money out of them for bogus repairs or at worst beat they shyte out of them, tie them up and leave them to die all for a few quid they possess.

Let's be frank here, you work in the legal profession so can you enlighten us as to how many traveller clients you have ?
You do not have to go into specifics, but roughly how many times have you helped them in a legal case, a criminal legal case ?

BTW you claim they shouldn't respect us, well then kindly explain why the fook they don't even respect each other that they can't even have a happy ocassion like a wedding or sorrowful one like a funeral without resorting to tribal warfare and bating lumps of shyte out of each other or even worse killing each other.

As long as people like you are around to excuse their behaviour nothing will change.

sbsquarepants

Deleted User wrote: »

It hasn't improved. If I was part of that group, at the receiving end of bigotry decade after decade, I'd laugh at your expectation that I should respect your litter laws, your road traffic laws and your education system.

Cleanliness is not an act of subjugation to the state, it's basic self respect and respect for your neighbours. I don't clean my house because my neighbours are nice to me, I clean it because I live there and I don't want myself or my kids to live in a shít hole.
I don't educate my kids because the pub serves me, I do it because it's what best for THEM. I want them to be able to get on in life without resorting to victimising old people and stealing anything that's not nailed down.
I follow the rules of the road for my safety and the safety of others around me. If I'm unfortunate enough to hit someone I will stop and help as best I can, not drive off and leave them fúcked because it's the right thing to do - no other reason.

We all know you've led a fairly sheltered life Conor, and that's fine, I'm not in any way mocking you by saying that - but Jesus Christ man open your eyes, see what's going on around you!

blackwhite

kylith wrote: »

It's amazing that pubs still have to be educated on anti-discrimination legislation. 15 years ago I had to tell a bouncer that if he refused me entry based on what I was wearing I'd be off to the solicitor in the morning and sue them. You can't discriminate on gender, dress, sexuality, or ethnicity. If they're not drunk you have to let them in.

When did "dress" get added to the nine grounds for discrimination??

jmayo

jmayo wrote: »

Let's be frank here, you work in the legal profession so can you enlighten us as to how many traveller clients you have ?
You do not have to go into specifics, but roughly how many times have you helped them in a legal case, a criminal legal case.

JMayo, because of your fixation in following me around from thread to thread with references to my job and the Bull, I kinda don't bother with your questions.

I'm being nice here to save you the effort and to explain the lack of reply. You could raise it another 50 times...in fact I expect you will...and you'll probably get the same...indifference.

CosmicJay

Deleted User wrote: »

They have faced oppression and discrimination for decades. It has been 30 years since the EU said they were the most discriminated against ethnic group in Europe. It hasn't improved. If I was part of that group, at the receiving end of bigotry decade after decade, I'd laugh at your expectation that I should respect your litter laws, your road traffic laws and your education system. Violence, alcoholism...well isn't that how ethnic groups who faced discrimination all over the world have reacted, do you expect some miracle in Ireland whereby the ones we treat with prejudice should learn to love and respect us?

So what is the solution?

We all need to be super nice to travellers and let them rob us blind?

We need to keep building them houses and halting sites which they can destroy time and time again.

Let them race up and down on roads because its their culture.

If you see one carting stuff out of your shed say, ah shure well, some lad on the internet said they are horribly oppressed. I should just do nothing.

sbsquarepants

sbsquarepants wrote: »

We all know you've led a fairly sheltered life Conor, and that's fine, I'm not in any way mocking you by saying that...

You are, it is the essence of ad hominem. You don't know the first thing about me.

As with JMayo, is the standard MO to start digging into another poster's personal life and start working off assumptions?

Its a very very lame argument. It suggests you know how poor your position is when you reach for it. It just dilutes any point you are trying to make.

CosmicJay

CosmicJay wrote: »

So what is the solution?

We all need to be super nice to travellers and let them rob us blind?

We need to keep building them houses and halting sites which they can destroy time and time again.

Let them race up and down on roads because its their culture.

If you see one carting stuff out of your shed say, ah shure well, some lad on the internet said they are horribly oppressed. I should just do nothing.

Not at all, we respond to crime each and every time it happens, in any community. We don't profile any group and make assumptions.

I wouldn't really invoke the housing and halting sites stuff when we are not even meeting their basic human rights in that regard. Is it less than 50 sites of the 1,000 it was felt would be necessary?

CosmicJay

Deleted User wrote: »

Not at all, we respond to crime each and every time it happens, in any community. We don't profile any group and make assumptions.

I wouldn't really invoke the housing and halting sites stuff when we are not even meeting their basic human rights in that regard. Is it less than 50 sites of the 1,000 it was felt would be necessary?

It's a very nice soundbite to throw around that we're not meeting their basic human rights.

What rights are we not meeting?

The only one I can think of is the right to accommodation, the state isnt providing enough halting sites to an adequate standard causing overcrowding.

By that logic than anyone who is homeless is having their human rights abused by the state.

Ash.J.Williams

CosmicJay wrote: »

It's a very nice soundbite to throw around that we're not meeting their basic human rights.

What rights are we not meeting?

The only one I can think of is the right to accommodation, the state isnt providing enough halting sites to an adequate standard causing overcrowding.

By that logic than anyone who is homeless is having their human rights abused by the state.

There's absolutely no point in halting sites. If an official government halting site is required than its Time for housing..

sbsquarepants

Deleted User wrote: »

You are, it is the essence of ad hominem. You don't know the first thing about me.

As with JMayo, is the standard MO to start digging into another poster's personal life and start working off assumptions?

Its a very very lame argument. It suggests you know how poor your position is when you reach for it. It just dilutes any point you are trying to make.

Well I apologise if that's the way you took it, it's not how I intended it.

But seeing as we're doing logical fallacies, my making an assumption about you (rightly or wrongly) could in no way effect the legitimacy of a separate argument about travellers!

Deleted User wrote: »

Not at all, we respond to crime each and every time it happens, in any community. We don't profile any group and make assumptions.

I wouldn't really invoke the housing and halting sites stuff when we are not even meeting their basic human rights in that regard. Is it less than 50 sites of the 1,000 it was felt would be necessary?

2 things.

1: Only idiots don't profile groups and make assumptions. You have heard tell no doubt of nice areas and bad areas. If you can't see there is difference in the probability of coming to grief while walking down a leafy street in foxrock at 2am, or an alleyway in Darndale at the same time of night then I just can't help you.
In fact I'm going to say you can see the difference (Stevie Wonder could see it after all), you probably just don't want to admit it!

2: Since when do we have a basic human right to land?
Is there a form I can fill out to claim mine?

CosmicJay

CosmicJay wrote: »

It's a very nice soundbite to throw around that we're not meeting their basic human rights.

Matter was fought out in the Council of Europe, the decision was made.

sbsquarepants wrote: »

1: Only idiots don't profile groups and make assumptions. You have heard tell no doubt of nice areas and bad areas. If you can't see there is difference in the probability of coming to grief while walking down a leafy street in foxrock at 2am, or an alleyway in Darndale at the same time of night then I just can't help you.
In fact I'm going to say you can see the difference (Stevie Wonder could see it after all), you probably just don't want to admit it!

2: Since when do we have a basic human right to land?
Is there a form I can fill out to claim mine?

Actually when it comes to law and order, the Gardai cannot profile people based on race, ethnic group etc. You may think they are idiots and choose to do it all the time, that is your prerogative.

Profiling an area based on crime stats in that area is very very different to profiling based on race, ethnicity. You surely understand that? Your analogy was very poor, particularly as you started with the "only idiots..."!

We don't have a human right to land. But then again, who said there was? The issue is not about providing land, or indeed property. It is the provision of accommodation.

the_syco

Omackeral wrote: »

But why? Why them? Why does it seem that Travellers have an awful reputation to the general public more than any other group?

Because they still trespass on peoples land, on public land, litter said land, intimidate people nearby, and ignore any laws that everyone else lives by.

Deleted User wrote: »

They have faced oppression and discrimination for decades.

They should try staying in school. And should leave their kids in school. As it stands, everyone hates school, but taking their traveller kids out of school ensures that they'll face discrimination by employers who ask everyone for the same; a pass in their LC.

=-=

Where I grew up, I had multiple good experiences with a certain traveller family (known locally as the Castletown travellers, as they worked on the Castletown land). They'd come up ever summer, and work hard. Keep their site clean. They stopped coming after another traveller family started to harass them, and would dump rubbish at their site.

Every single traveller I've met after that family went out of their way to intimidate me, my neighbours, my community. Would destroy any public facilities nearby.

Deleted User wrote: »

I always enjoy the whole "travellers drove very fast the other day, if that was you and me there'd be a SWAT team in helicopters" ones.

Actually, they need the ARU, multiple armed Gardai, etc, if they wanted to arrest one of their ilk!

Deleted User wrote: »

I wouldn't really invoke the housing and halting sites stuff when we are not even meeting their basic human rights in that regard. Is it less than 50 sites of the 1,000 it was felt would be necessary?

They refuse to goto the halting sites if there's a family that they have a feud with is there. Which seems to happen quite often in Maynooth halting site. If they want to be treated equally, they'll take a house offered to them, but hell no; they want to be treated equally, but at the same time they want more stuff than the Irish... a house with land for their horse/caravan/etc, and/or a halting site that they may not use.

end of the road

sbsquarepants wrote: »

If the whole industry was awash with tales of how every time you let a few gays drink in your bar, they smashed the place up, I wouldn't let gays drink in my bar. Simple FACT is the majority of gays will behave themselves, the majority of travellers wont. There are always exceptions to every rule, but as I've repeatedly said it's a numbers game. Travellers have proven time and time again that if you take a chance on them it will likely backfire. Gays haven't proven that, black people haven't.

The place I work in has been robbed literally dozens of times over the years by one of the 3 groups mentioned above - can you guess which group it was?

I have no problem with either gays, nor blacks, travellers I do not want anything to do with. They are bad news as a group, there may well be exceptions, but so what, they are in such a small minority that they aren't worth bothering with. In the off chance that you meet Paddy the decent traveller, you may bet full well that his mate Paddy the scummy traveller will rob you blind or hit you with a hatchet at the drop of a hat. Bad news, end of story.

ultimately that doesn't matter. anti-discrimination laws will always come before a business.

sbsquarepants wrote: »

You say over and over that you've had plenty of dealings with them. I can see only 2 possibilities here - you are lying about the number of times you've had to deal with them, or you are lying about how pleasant an experience it was. Nobody who has had to deal with these people, has too much good to say about them.

well you are wrong, so what possibilities you can see are false and irrelevant to me. i don't actually give a damn whether you do believe me or not, i don't tell lies so if i say i have had plenty of dealings with travelers both good and bad, then i did. nothing you or anyone says can change that fact.

sbsquarepants wrote: »

It's not. It's a too much hassle, it's not like they're going to get jobs and pay taxes anyway so we'd rather not bother issue.

it very much is down to resourcing. it is well known raids have been caried out against travelers.

sbsquarepants

end of the road wrote: »

ultimately that doesn't matter. anti-discrimination laws will always come before a business..

Sense will always prevail over the law in my book.

end of the road wrote: »

well you are wrong, so what possibilities you can see are false and irrelevant to me. i don't actually give a damn whether you do believe me or not, i don't tell lies so if i say i have had plenty of dealings with travelers both good and bad, then i did. nothing you or anyone says can change that fact..

Tell us more about some of these bad experiences you've had. They don't seem to have coloured your views much!

end of the road wrote: »

it very much is down to resourcing. it is well known raids have been caried out against travelers.

They have - but largely speaking, cops just don't want the hassle of dealing with them. Have you ever witnessed a raid on a halting site - it's like invading another country!

Deleted User wrote: »

Actually when it comes to law and order, the Gardai cannot profile people based on race, ethnic group etc. You may think they are idiots and choose to do it all the time, that is your prerogative. .

You don't think the police would proceed differently to a call out from shrewsbury road or labre park?

Deleted User wrote: »

Profiling an area based on crime stats in that area is very very different to profiling based on race, ethnicity. You surely understand that? Your analogy was very poor, particularly as you started with the "only idiots..."!

We don't have a human right to land. But then again, who said there was? The issue is not about providing land, or indeed property. It is the provision of accommodation.

The denial is strong in this one!

The analogy is fine, it's your perception that's poor.
Areas don't commit crimes Conor, the people who live in those areas do.
When we say somewhere is a bad area, we mean the area is full of bad people. We could be grouping them by ethnicity, social class, whatever - but we are referring to people, not geography!

by8auj6csd3ioq

Why does it say the intoxicating liquor act when it is the equal status act that governs travellers refused service on traveller status

end of the road

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Sense will always prevail over the law in my book.

i'm afraid nonsense won't prevail over the law in the law's book. ultimately the law and what it states is all that matters here.

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Tell us more about some of these bad experiences you've had. They don't seem to have coloured your views much!

they haven't coloured my views, that is correct, as i'm not in the business of judging whole groups of people on the basis of some people, i judge the individual on their own actions. i'm consistent on that viewpoint.

RasTa

Do love when the ladies sing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlTxNgdFhiY

tedpan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5nVES2dQW0

Currently #trending on YouTube 😀

Omackeral

That was culturally enriching.

ShooterSF

Well the court case has had an effect. There was a group of Travellers in town tonight and a lot of places flat out closed up. We were told by management that people were "here before and there was trouble on that night" as opposed to the "Regulars Only" signs going up.

up for anything

sbsquarepants wrote: »

1: Only idiots don't profile groups and make assumptions. You have heard tell no doubt of nice areas and bad areas. If you can't see there is difference in the probability of coming to grief while walking down a leafy street in foxrock at 2am, or an alleyway in Darndale at the same time of night then I just can't help you.
In fact I'm going to say you can see the difference (Stevie Wonder could see it after all), you probably just don't want to admit it!

It might not be Foxrock but it's not that shabby.

It actually doesn't matter which road you walk down at 2am while there are people out there who are out of control on cholesterol medication or painkillers and who get away with serious sexual offences. Pathetic bloody justice system and then people wonder why #MeToo.

It's a bit like Dr Seuss.... on a PLANE... down a lane! :mad:

sbsquarepants

up for anything wrote: »

It might not be Foxrock but it's not that shabby.

It actually doesn't matter which road you walk down at 2am while there are people out there who are out of control on cholesterol medication or painkillers and who get away with serious sexual offences. Pathetic bloody justice system and then people wonder why #MeToo.

It's a bit like Dr Seuss.... on a PLANE... down a lane! :mad:

Cholesterol medicine - I remember that twat alright!

It's down to the numbers though. You are MUCH more likely to come to grief down that lane in Darndale than you are in foxrock.
It's something to do with the geography!

pilly

Tipperary animal lover wrote:

I see EOTR has found this thread, give it a few days and the thread will be shut down, debate will go round I'm circles as per previous threads and mods will get pissed off with it and it'll be the the end of the road for yet another good thread, Long live good conversation either if you agree or disagree with it.

I've complained about this already. Nothing done.