So 4 travellers walk into a bar.....

twinpeaks999

twinpeaks999 wrote: »

You would have to make the case the bouncer would have the ability to tell a medical condition to having to much drink. Cant see it would be expected to have a in depth medical knowledge for a doorman.

Majority of them don't entertain you. They tell you to stand out to the side and leave you there like a plum. I think they make their minds up almost on a whim and then they're not for budging lest they look like they've made a mistake, can't have that. I think a good doorman could take literally 10 or 15 seconds to see what you're about. If he says something like ''Lads, how's the form tonight'' just to see how coherent you are and then maybe something small like where are you coming from or where've you been before now just to get a feel for your demeanor. If you're in any way cheeky, unpleasant, impatient or overly drunk then he should rightly refuse you.

end of the road

Yawns wrote: »

The pub got sued because they were stupid to actually tell them a reason they were being refused.

the pub got sued because they broke the law.

Yawns wrote: »

Pubs can refuse to serve you as long as it's not done in a discriminatory way. Eg travelers, gender etc.

discriminatory is the key word. it doesn't have to be direct discrimination for a successful case to be brought.

Yawns wrote: »

Just simply refuse and tell them they can come back tomorrow to speak with a manager.

If you have to give a reason, it's always best not to. But best way it works is a member of staff usually recognizes one and remembers having trouble before. At least one or two more get agitated at this point and gives you a valid reason to ask all of them to leave. No discrimination case.

there is no guarantee that is a workible solution. a good lawyer could be able to still prove that discrimination took place. like anything it may work in some cases depending on the evidence but it is naive to rely on it and suggest it will always work.

Yawns wrote: »

I'm sure the social justice warriors don't like hearing this, but no pub wants the travelers in. They're messy, smash the place up and they couldn't give a ****.

sjws don't exist for a start. also, if publicans don't want travelers in their pub then shut down and sell up. otherwise abide by the laws, especially as they get a hell of a lot of protection from the government via anti-competitive laws which work in favour of the publicans.

Yawns wrote: »

Those same sjw most likely wouldn't go to a pub if they knew travelers were allowed in on a regular basis. If they came across a group of them, they'd prob leave as soon as or stay on the far side of the pub away from them.

a statement with little basis in fact, which is nothing more then wishful thinking.

c_man

seamus wrote: »

That's pretty disingenuous, but I suspect you know that.

Not disingenuous at all. It's pretty much the only premises I can think of that publicly admitted they discriminate on two of the grounds outlined in law.

Yawns

Yeah of course...

I could go into further detail but I'm fully away of your ability to ignore any rational discussion and throw your own agenda as fact when it suits so I won't be delving into the discussion with you on this E.O.T.R

The fact remains that the vast majority of pubs don't want travelers in them. They won't shut up shop because of it, but they won't let them in willingly if they can help it. The travelers brought this on themselves and I've no sympathy for them.

Also Social Justice Warriors don't exist. LOL.

RasTa

Anybody who says travelers should be served has never worked behind a bar. I've yet to meet anyone in the industry who hasn't had trouble with them.

seamus

sbsquarepants wrote: »

And why exactly might the "market" decide to ban one group of people over another?

What do you mean? Like black people?
Or Northsiders?
Or women?
Or gays?
Or Irish people?

"The market" is as fickle as peoples' opinions; that is to say very fickle. Anyone who believes that groups of people only get banned from places because they deserve it are incredibly naive and/or have very short memories.

Subcomandante Marcos

Yawns wrote: »

The fact remains that the vast majority of pubs don't want travelers in them. They won't shut up shop because of it, but they won't let them in willingly if they can help it

As long as people who are discriminated against illegally keep pursuing these matters in the courts and the offenders are punished and named and shamed this will change in time. Thankfully bigoted nonsense like you and your cohorts are espousing in this thread is dying.

shaunr68

Many years ago we were travelling down to the Glastonbury Festival, this was around the time the new age travellers were in the news. Many pubs in the area refused entry to them and had signs outside saying "No travellers". I was amused by one pub with such a sign, the pub's name was "The Travellers Rest"

Yawns

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

As long as people who are discriminated against illegally keep pursuing these matters in the courts and the offenders are punished and named and shamed this will change in time. Thankfully bigoted nonsense like your and your cohorts are espousing in this thread is dying.

I don't think it is dying with regards to travelers tho. The pub got caught because it gave a reason. The same pub will most likely still try to refuse travelers over the next few weeks only they won't give a reason or will say they are full.

Heres Johnny

Travellers in bars make the other clientele feel uncomfortable. That's the fact of the matter. If travellers were frequenting my local I'd find another local.
That's the reality of it. Same for the majority of people I know.
We all know the stories of every bar in town closing up when there's a traveller wedding or funeral on.
Some people will get high horsey about this and I guarantee you they would feel the same.
I've had a few small alterations with travellers and none of them positive. Masquerading as trying to sell goods at my door on Saturday morning, when I didn't answer they started looking in window to see if it was empty. Looking in my car, when challenged pretended they wanted to buy it.
Wouldn't sit in a pub beside them.
Not productive members of society at all and that's before what my Garda friends have told me about the stuff they've seen them do, robbing old people.
Some of their young women look well though before they get married and get subjected to a life of hell by their husbands.

The Legend Of Kira

Has anyone posting in this thread ever done any sort of bar work in the past or work in a bar in the present ? I worked in a bar for a few months years ago, the bouncers would at times refuse entry to people for different reasons lads wearing tracksuits/runners/ people looking they already had too much to drink , basically being careful as to who they allowed into the venue in order to prevent any potential hassle from people who already had too much to drink or people they think look dodgy , then there,s the various stories in the papers over the years about hassle at Traveller weddings etc so I can understand why some pubs would rather not serve travellers .

The Legend Of Kira

Double post error .

Yeah I've worked in pubs/bars and we never discriminated against anyone out of hand. I wouldn't work in a place that did, any trouble I got was the price of not lowering myself to being a prejudiced bigot

end of the road

Richard Hillman wrote: »

That's life though, people have different opinions on different issues. If a business decided to discriminate one group of people, some people will take exception and Boycott, some people will not be bothered by it. It should all be about choice.

Society should choose what they deem is the greater good, that's what a Free Democratic Republic should be. The option of choice.

It's a bit like the Gay Cake furore in Northern Ireland. Do I believe they should be allowed to turn away business because they feel it infringes their beliefs? Yes. Would I use their business in future? No chance.

society does choose what is the greater good. via the elected representatives. that is the only viable way society can choose anything. the type of society you want where individuals decide everything on an individual basis just isn't viable.

Yawns wrote: »

But that could apply to the majority of publicans and bar staff across the country, including me when I worked in the hospitality sector. Bars, clubs, pubs, hotels etc do not want them. They have themselves to blame. It's not because as a group they have a world wide reputation for hard working, honesty and reliability. They're not known for their kindness to animals and charitable donations.

They're known as thieving scum who treat their haltings sites as a dumping ground and burn crap. The less said, the better. People won't like what I type but it's the damn truth.

I grew up pretty much next to a halting site in Tallaght for 20 years. First hand experience of the scrotes and how the gardaí (don't) deal with them.

i'm afraid travelers don't have themselves to blame for discrimination, the publicans are fully to blame for discrimination against travelers. what some travelers do or don't do isn't relevant in terms of discrimination. little rants like "People won't like what I type but it's the damn truth" doesn't make it the truth, as it's not the truth in all cases.

Yawns wrote: »

Yeah of course...

I could go into further detail but I'm fully away of your ability to ignore any rational discussion and throw your own agenda as fact when it suits so I won't be delving into the discussion with you on this E.O.T.R

an inaccurate and baseless allegation which you will be unable to prove. i get a lot of them from those who can never argue agains what i say. the reason that you won't delve into the discussion with me, is that you know you have no valid argument to support discrimination against travelers.

Yawns wrote: »

The fact remains that the vast majority of pubs don't want travelers in them. They won't shut up shop because of it, but they won't let them in willingly if they can help it. The travelers brought this on themselves and I've no sympathy for them.

Also Social Justice Warriors don't exist. LOL.

the travelers didn't bring discrimination on themselves and whether you have sympathy for them or not isn't relevant. the publicans brought the discrimination on the travelers and are fully to blame for carying it out, therefore they must pay if caught.
throughout history those involved in the act of discrimination, or who support discrimination, have used the bad things some members of the group they discriminate against have done to justify their discrimination. like most other groups, we have got to the stage where that no longer works. the same will happen for travelers as well.
oh i'm sure the pubs don't want travelers, but it's tough really. they are open to the public so they will just have to get on with it like the rest of us. if they really don't want to serve travelers then as i said they can sell up. otherwise they can go into another business that does deal with the public but isn't so public facing.

RasTa wrote: »

Anybody who says travelers should be served has never worked behind a bar.

a statement which cannot be proved or disproved i'm afraid. the law states that travelers cannot be refused service because traveler. you may not like that law but it is the law.

Yawns

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Has anyone posting in this thread ever done any sort of bar work in the past or work in a bar in the present ?.

I have for several years and thankfully not at this present time. Bars, niteclubs and hotels. I'm talking from first hand experience as well as growing up in Tallaght near a halting site.

The lads banging on about it being racist and it's dying out haven't a ****ing clue in reality. All well and good banging on about it online saying it's terrible, but they wouldn't bring their mother, sister, wife, gf or daughters near the feckers in a pub and they'd be right not to.

Have a look around pub doors in the next few weeks to see the likes of ticketed event only etc. Lots of ways to try and prevent travelers from getting in. I don't care if it's racist of me. It's a horrible truth and it's laughable that people think it's a practice that's dying out.

I can safely say I've no problem with white, black, asian, transgender, gays, lesbians, people with disabilities or those without but you can feck off with travelers. They are not worth the hassle.

sbsquarepants

seamus wrote: »

What do you mean? Like black people?
Or Northsiders?
Or women?
Or gays?
Or Irish people?

"The market" is as fickle as peoples' opinions; that is to say very fickle. Anyone who believes that groups of people only get banned from places because they deserve it are incredibly naive and/or have very short memories.

Yes exactly like those, I've yet to hear of a bar that doesn't want to deal with blacks, northsiders, women, gays or irish people. If you are a northside, black, gay irish woman you could walk into pretty much any bar in this country unimpeded - and why is that?

It's because every pub in Ireland won't have a story to tell about the black, northside, lesbians, getting tanked up and bating the head off each other!

end of the road

Heres Johnny wrote: »

Some people will get high horsey about this and I guarantee you they would feel the same.

on what basis can you guarantee that they would feel the same as you? have you done some research that we could see? or is it as i suspect, the case you want everyone to feel the same as you, so are making yourself believe that they do?

Yawns wrote: »

The lads banging on about it being racist and it's dying out haven't a ****ing clue in reality. All well and good banging on about it online saying it's terrible, but they wouldn't bring their mother, sister, wife, gf or daughters near the feckers in a pub and they'd be right not to.

more statements that you will be unable to provide proof for. you cannot prove what others who have a different opinion to yours would or wouldn't do. it's wishful thinking on your part, you want your statement to be true.
seems to be a common theme of those with extreme dislike of travelers. look, we get it, you don't like travelers. but baseless statements like yours above do not change the facts, discrimination against travelers is against the law. those who cary it out are breaking the law and if caught, deserve what they get.

Yawns wrote: »

Have a look around pub doors in the next few weeks to see the likes of ticketed event only etc. Lots of ways to try and prevent travelers from getting in. I don't care if it's racist of me. It's a horrible truth and it's laughable that people think it's a practice that's dying out.

it's not laughable, it is gradually but surely dying out. laws will get slightly tighter as the years and decades go on before discrimination against travelers will be effectively impossible. it is going to happen.

Yawns wrote: »

I can safely say I've no problem with white, black, asian, transgender, gays, lesbians, people with disabilities or those without

great, but why the need to share that in this thread though? do you think it gets you off your views toards all travelers on the basis of some? it doesn't i'm afraid.

Yawns

I don't want to post it to get it off of my views of all travelers. I'll stand by that I think travelers are scum and to be avoided. Again from personal experience. I'll assume you don;t have years of living near a halting site nor working in the hospitality sector. But please do bang on about how it's dying out and all that. Do let me know what pubs you'll be in over the next few weeks and how many travelers you socialize with from your experiences tho

RasTa

I will still be refusing travelers and they will still be taking out their mobile phones claiming racism.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/if-i-refuse-to-serve-im-in-trouble-if-i-serve-this-happens-207311.html

Is what usually happens, one comes in followed by 20.

Sleeper12

Yawns wrote:

Have a look around pub doors in the next few weeks to see the likes of ticketed event only etc. Lots of ways to try and prevent travelers from getting in. I don't care if it's racist of me. It's a horrible truth and it's laughable that people think it's a practice that's dying out.

Ticketed events aren't to stop travellers. What do you do when they show up with tickets that someone else bought them. Big court case there.
Ticketed events are for extremely busy nights of the year. They are about crowd control. They are about making sure that your regular clients get in on Christmas eve, Stephens day, new year eve etc. Definitely nothing to do with stopping travellers getting in.

Look, lots of travellers get into fights with drink on them. I get that but plenty of travellers don't get into fights.

The way the law works is that you let them in and then bar the ones that cause trouble. Same as settled clients. You only bar the ones causing trouble. You'll never loose a court case for baring someone who has caused trouble.

Baring one whole race, ethnic group etc is downright wrong. It puts up more barriers & encourages us against them ignorance. I have no issues baring someone that has caused trouble. Skin colour and race wouldn't come into it

Yawns

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Ticketed events aren't to stop travellers. What do you do when they show up with tickets that someone else bought them. Big court case there.
Ticketed events are for extremely busy nights of the year. They are about crowd control. They are about making sure that your regular clients get in on Christmas eve, Stephens day, new year eve etc. Definitely nothing to do with stopping travellers getting in.

Be hard to do when a lot of establishments don't sell tickets tho

I'm not talking Dublin city centre here. Smaller towns might have a small sign saying tickets only on the door, but most people don't seem to need tickets getting in

It works tho. It doesn't turn away that many casuals either as most people tend to ask the bouncer "oh where do we get tickets" to which he'll reply oh work away for now or ask at the bar.

Heres Johnny

end of the road wrote: »

Heres Johnny wrote: »

Some people will get high horsey about this and I guarantee you they would feel the same.

on what basis can you guarantee that they would feel the same as you? have you done some research that we could see? or is it as i suspect, the case you want everyone to feel the same as you, so are making yourself believe that they do

On the basis that of the hundreds and hundreds of people I know now and have known in the past in real life, from all walks of irish and british life, not on high horsey internet threads, do not and will not mix with travellers in social circles, work circles or any circle you care to mention.
We don't work with them, we don't drink with them, we don't spend time with them. Because we know what they are really like.
I'd waiting now for someone to claim they know loads of travellers and they're the best in the world. Which will be just pure lies.
They'd take the eye out of your head given half a chance.

Yawns

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Look, lots of travellers get into fights with drink on them. I get that but plenty of travellers don't get into fights.

The way the law works is that you let them in and then bar the ones that cause trouble. Same as settled clients. You only bar the ones causing trouble. You'll never loose a court case for baring someone who has caused trouble.

Baring one whole race, ethnic group etc is downright wrong. It puts up more barriers & encourages us against them ignorance. I have no issues baring someone that has caused trouble. Skin colour and race wouldn't come into it

The problem is that when you let 1 or 4 of them in, they ring their mates and suddenly it's 20 of them.

Then when they fight they destroy a place to the extent that the business has to close for a couple of days and spend hundreds to thousands in repairs.

It's easier to refuse entry without reason if you can at the first instance and dramatically reduce the odds.

In an ideal world, maybe things could be your way. But real life is a bitch and with travelers the protection seems to only go one way.

sbsquarepants

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Yes exactly like those, I've yet to hear of a bar that doesn't want to deal with blacks, northsiders, women, gays or irish people. If you are a northside, black, gay irish woman you could walk into pretty much any bar in this country unimpeded - and why is that?

It's because every pub in Ireland won't have a story to tell about the black, northside, lesbians, getting tanked up and bating the head off each other!

And if there was a pub in England or Australia that didn't let you in because you're irish you'd be grand with it?

Sleeper12

Yawns wrote:

It's easier to refuse entry without reason if you can at the first instance and dramatically reduce the odds.

This was my point earlier. I don't agree with a blanket ban but if you do then you don't give a reason or say it's a blanket ban.

Pub owner in this case got exactly what he deserves

falinn merking

riffmongous wrote: »

And if there was a pub in England or Australia that didn't let you in because you're irish you'd be grand with it?

Two possible scenarios being refused entry to a bar or sitting in a bar and a group of 20 of these lads walk in let me think which would be worse.:rolleyes:

Verpiss dich

Verpiss dich wrote: »

Two possible scenarios being refused entry to a bar or sitting in a bar and a group of 20 of these lads walk in let me think which would be worse.:rolleyes:

Do you mean Irish or travelers?

falinn merking

riffmongous wrote: »

Do you mean Irish or travelers?

end of the road

Heres Johnny wrote: »

On the basis that of the hundreds and hundreds of people I know now and have known in the past in real life, from all walks of irish and british life, not on high horsey internet threads, do not and will not mix with travellers in social circles, work circles or any circle you care to mention.

so basically as i thought, you have no proof that others who you don't know wouldn't socialise with travelers. grand so.

Heres Johnny wrote: »

I'd waiting now for someone to claim they know loads of travellers and they're the best in the world. Which will be just pure lies.

what evidence do you have that such a statement will be "pure lies" given that you don't know the person who may make the statement you are waiting to be made, or the travelers they state they may know?

Yawns wrote: »

real life is a bitch and with travelers the protection seems to only go one way.

real life is just about fine in terms of the laws to stop discrimination against travelers. the law should be harsher, but it exists at least, which is a good thing. it works as well a number of times, which is a good thing. would be great if it worked more, but sometime is better then no time.
the reason travelers have extra protection is i'm afraid, because of the people who discriminate against them. they are the cause of extra protections for travelers because of their behaviour.

McMurphy

kylith wrote: »

It's amazing that pubs still have to be educated on anti-discrimination legislation. 15 years ago I had to tell a bouncer that if he refused me entry based on what I was wearing I'd be off to the solicitor in the morning and sue them. You can't discriminate on gender, dress, sexuality, or ethnicity. If they're not drunk you have to let them in.

Does the management reserve the right to refuse admission signs have no legal basis behind them at all? (Serious question)

I'd guess a bouncers get out of jail card could always be something aloing the lines of 'he looked locked to me judge' anyway?