So 4 travellers walk into a bar.....

Galwayguy35

kylith wrote: »

It's amazing that pubs still have to be educated on anti-discrimination legislation. 15 years ago I had to tell a bouncer that if he refused me entry based on what I was wearing I'd be off to the solicitor in the morning and sue them. You can't discriminate on gender, dress, sexuality, or ethnicity. If they're not drunk you have to let them in.

What were you wearing that he wouldn't let you in?

I'm just wondering because when I used to go to nightclubs as a young fella i often got refused because I was wearing runners.

Richard Hillman

riffmongous wrote: »

And if there was a pub in England or Australia that didn't let you in because you're irish you'd be grand with it?

I would rather be turned away at the door than unwittingly sit there whilst the regulars are either cursing your name on the quiet or plotting something sinister.

ShooterSF

end of the road wrote: »

i'm afraid travelers don't have themselves to blame for discrimination, the publicans are fully to blame for discrimination against travelers. what some travelers do or don't do isn't relevant in terms of discrimination.

Individually, probably not but as a whole they must do something. All I know is I have worked for about a dozen owners/managers in everything from hotels to nightclubs to local bars to busy nightlife bars (15 years in this industry) and EVERY one of them has had a way for us to deal with refusing travellers and NO other ethnicity. That can't just be a fluke. The gardai will actually phone my current bar and warn if there's a funeral coming up or there's a group in town for some other reason and suggest we close our doors.
This seems like a large percentage of people who I know that fit a normally varying degrees of social conservatism to liberalism all landing on the same side on this issue.

I don't for a second suggest that a blanket secret ban is the solution but I can't help but think anyone that claims the publicans are just out to ruin travellers' lives has to be missing something in the complexity of the issue.

end of the road

ShooterSF wrote: »

Individually, probably not but as a whole they must do something.

about the problems in the traveling community, yes. about discrimination toards them, no . those doing the discriminating against them are responsible in full for that and deserve to be dealt with by the law.

ShooterSF wrote: »

All I know is I have worked for about a dozen owners/managers in everything from hotels to nightclubs to local bars to busy nightlife bars (15 years in this industry) and EVERY one of them has had a way for us to deal with refusing travellers and NO other ethnicity. That can't just be a fluke. The gardai will actually phone my current bar and warn if there's a funeral coming up or there's a group in town for some other reason and suggest we close our doors.
This seems like a large percentage of people who I know that fit a normally varying degrees of social conservatism to liberalism all landing on the same side on this issue.

the same happened with many other groups who were discriminated against. people from all across society supported the discrimination they faced. until society grew up. the problems the traveling community have are problems and need dealing with but the publicans have no moral or any argument to engage in discrimination against them.

ShooterSF wrote: »

I don't for a second suggest that a blanket secret ban is the solution but I can't help but think anyone that claims the publicans are just out to ruin travellers' lives has to be missing something in the complexity of the issue.

they aren't missing anything though. that is the thing. there is no complexity in terms of the issue of carying out discrimination. it's against the law, and those who engage in it are breaking the law. yeah, sure, they may have their ways of just about legally getting around it but ultimately long term those methods will stop working.
ultimately some of the publicans are out to discriminate against travelers because they just about can. they aren't the only ones at it but that's neither here nor there.

Ha. People still going, or trying to go in this case, to noise-filled pubs with knacker Sky Sports and Sky News shíte on all day.

The 'traditional Irish pub' my hole.

markodaly

kylith wrote: »

It's amazing that pubs still have to be educated on anti-discrimination legislation. 15 years ago I had to tell a bouncer that if he refused me entry based on what I was wearing I'd be off to the solicitor in the morning and sue them. You can't discriminate on gender, dress, sexuality, or ethnicity. If they're not drunk you have to let them in.

Bars can refuse you entry based on dress code. So good luck with that solicitor visit and their 300 euro an hour fees. There would be only one winner here, the person with the law degree.

falinn merking

end of the road wrote: »

about the problems in the traveling community, yes. about discrimination toards them, no . those doing the discriminating against them are responsible in full for that and deserve to be dealt with by the law.



the same happened with many other groups who were discriminated against. people from all across society supported the discrimination they faced. until society grew up. the problems the traveling community have are problems and need dealing with but the publicans have no moral or any argument to engage in discrimination against them.



they aren't missing anything though. that is the thing. there is no complexity in terms of the issue of carying out discrimination. it's against the law, and those who engage in it are breaking the law. yeah, sure, they may have their ways of just about legally getting around it but ultimately long term those methods will stop working.
ultimately some of the publicans are out to discriminate against travelers because they just about can. they aren't the only ones at it but that's neither here nor there.

It's a difficult topic but if one of us grew up in the community and I wanted to integrate into wider society not been served anywhere would put me right off.

Not denying there is a lot of trouble from that community but an individual will find it hard to break into more mainstream living not been able join in anywhere.

It's impossible to have a discussion about this subject without peoples blood pressure exploding.

falinn merking

markodaly wrote: »

Bars can refuse you entry based on dress code. So good luck with that solicitor visit and their 300 euro an hour fees. There would be only one winner here, the person with the law degree.

And if you had that money to begin with it would be better spent on a few decent rags.:D

falinn merking

Deleted User wrote: »

Ha. People still going, or trying to go in this case, to noise-filled pubs with knacker Sky Sports and Sky News shíte on all day.

The 'traditional Irish pub' my hole.

Well it depends on what you mean by traditional.

Overpriced musty smell dark and as must atmosphere as low earth orbit is what springs to mind.

Heres Johnny

end of the road wrote: »

Heres Johnny wrote: »

On the basis that of the hundreds and hundreds of people I know now and have known in the past in real life, from all walks of irish and british life, not on high horsey internet threads, do not and will not mix with travellers in social circles, work circles or any circle you care to mention.

so basically as i thought, you have no proof that others who you don't know wouldn't socialise with travelers. grand so.

Heres Johnny wrote: »

I'd waiting now for someone to claim they know loads of travellers and they're the best in the world. Which will be just pure lies.

what evidence do you have that such a statement will be "pure lies" given that you don't know the person who may make the statement you are waiting to be made, or the travelers they state they may know?

What's the deal needing evidence and proof of everything to make a point?

Let's just call it an observation over the last 30 odd years. Very few people like them. That's why pubs won't serve them.
They don't even like each other. Just their own families. Some of them like their own family members a bit more than they should too.

And don't ask for proof again.

Yawns

Nah you see how it goes is, you need proof when making a statement. However they can make a statement such as it's on the decline but not show any proof at all. It's how Eotr rolls around here on boards which is why I can't be bothered to engage in a discussion on it with them. Forget that the majority of the pubs don't want the travelers in, it's everyone else's fault and they shouldn't be discriminated against just because. Not the travelers fault in any way, shape or form.

end of the road

Heres Johnny wrote: »

few people like them. That's why pubs won't serve them.

the reason pubs won't serve them isn't because few like them. after all, for all the publicans know, nobody likes anybody. you don't have to be nasty toards an individual in any way to not like them. pubs won't serve them for their own bigoted reasons, and there is little incentive in terms of the law to force that to change. but it won't remain that way forever

Heres Johnny wrote: »

And don't ask for proof again.

i will ask for proof if i like. not that i need it from you anyway as i know your statements in terms of telling us what others think that you don't know, and who have a different opinion to you, cannot be proved.

monnies

end of the road wrote: »

the reason pubs won't serve them isn't because few like them. after all, for all the publicans know, nobody likes anybody. you don't have to be nasty toards an individual in any way to not like them. pubs won't serve them for their own bigoted reasons, and there is little incentive in terms of the law to force that to change. but it won't remain that way forever



i will ask for proof if i like. not that i need it from you anyway as i know your statements in terms of telling us what others think that you don't know, and who have a different opinion to you, cannot be proved.

thank you for standing up for travellers and unborn babies

Feisar

Oasis1974 wrote: »

Everyone's money is good should have been served now to perfect my traveller impersonation 6k would be nice lol.

Funny, the owner of the bar I used to work in didn't sue after I received three dud fifties in a row. (I twigged them for what they were FYI)

Duds
Conterfeits
Perfidious

ShooterSF

end of the road wrote: »

about the problems in the traveling community, yes. about discrimination toards them, no . those doing the discriminating against them are responsible in full for that and deserve to be dealt with by the law.

Indeed. The law is the law. I was looking past the law and asking why people would break the law to LOSE revenue and why this seems to only happen to one select group in what is increasingly a multicultural society. My boss has no problem serving Polish, Lithuanian, Black, Muslim, etc. No other minority is discriminated against so it's not xenophobia or bigotry as a trait. There has to be a "reason" outside of "They hate travellers".

the same happened with many other groups who were discriminated against. people from all across society supported the discrimination they faced. until society grew up. the problems the traveling community have are problems and need dealing with but the publicans have no moral or any argument to engage in discrimination against them.

Yes and I've worked in places where *some* customers voiced issue with me serving black customers and they were given dirty looks by me and other customers but again, every bar I work in customers no why that "Private Party" or "Regulars only" sign is up and I've met resistance from 1 customer over 15 years. So why is it society has moved past and scorns discrimination publicly against other FOREIGN minorities but not travellers?

they aren't missing anything though. that is the thing. there is no complexity in terms of the issue of carying out discrimination. it's against the law, and those who engage in it are breaking the law. yeah, sure, they may have their ways of just about legally getting around it but ultimately long term those methods will stop working.
ultimately some of the publicans are out to discriminate against travelers because they just about can. they aren't the only ones at it but that's neither here nor there.

There is no complexity if you want to discuss what the law is. Agreed 100% What I do in my job is illegal. The complexity I'm referring to is why my job has me do that. Which I why I bolded that sentence of yours. Ultimately I don't think you or I or anyone reading this REALLY believes the reason you list, "because they just about can." Because they don't do it to any other ethnic group in my experience. So it's not about being able to. Clearly.

cd07

Why can't people just say what they really mean these days Jesus the world has gone PC overboard. From personal experience of being in an establishment with travellers would I go in again with them there..god no. Thats my opinion maybe others have a more positive opinion but that's mine. And before everyone jumps on my back about my opinion..to me myself it's 100% justified. I'm not mentioning any specifics but believe me I know all about it. Let the PC brigade ride in and berate me for it....

Dr Brown

King George VI wrote: »

... and walk out with €6000 each.

"FOUR TRAVELLER MEN were compensated €6,000 each after being refused service in a bar in Maynooth.
The members of the Traveller community were denied service and told that only regulars were being served on the night in question."

What do you make of that? If I got refused from a bar I'd just go to another bar.

http://www.thejournal.ie/traveller-men-compensated-3756238-Dec2017/

My fav quote from the article is:

"The group had been attending a human rights course when they had decided to go for a drink to a nearby pub."

lol

6 grand for been refused from a bar is insane.

The tax funded human rights brigade have alot to answer for.

end of the road

cd07 wrote: »

Why can't people just say what they really mean these days Jesus the world has gone PC overboard.

unless what they say is liable, or constitutes insitement to hatred or to commit crime, or depending on the platform, constitutes hate speach, people can say what they like, they may potentially be challenged on what they say however. being challenged on one's views does not constitute "pc"

cd07 wrote: »

Let the PC brigade ride in and berate me for it....

they don't exist so that won't be happening. you have nothing to worry about on that regard.

falinn merking

I believe posters such as End of the Road have good intentions but this is a difficult issue that I honestly don't have the answers for.

We could keep on going the way we are going and in ten or twenty years things will be the same.

In the 1960s and 70s tensions between the British and Irish hit and all time low.
Bombs in Dublin bombs in the UK.

Many people truly hate the Travellers and I am not sure what they really think of us.

The situation for many years regarding this topic has been pretty grim and having a more open and creative discussion here does not mean anybody condones bad behaviour.
The Travellers have a very high suicide rate and a low life expectancy plus very high rates of alcohol abuse on top of that they are barred from almost everywhere.

I am not trying to put the blame on anyone but I honestly can not believe the Travellers are happy as things stand.
This could be a starting point for a dialogue unless everybody is happy with the current situation.

A calm rational talk does not mean giving ground or being forced to accept anything but it is better then not talking and still going around in circles in 20 years from now.

Cupatae

King George VI wrote: »

... and walk out with €6000 each.

"FOUR TRAVELLER MEN were compensated €6,000 each after being refused service in a bar in Maynooth.
The members of the Traveller community were denied service and told that only regulars were being served on the night in question."

What do you make of that? If I got refused from a bar I'd just go to another bar.

http://www.thejournal.ie/traveller-men-compensated-3756238-Dec2017/

My fav quote from the article is:

"The group had been attending a human rights course when they had decided to go for a drink to a nearby pub."

lol

Prob sick of the discrimination and nonsense cant blame em, Just a pity its the bar and not the people working the door paying it out.

The smart thing to do would be let em in, and bar em if they start acting up problem solved.

falinn merking

Cupatae wrote: »

Prob sick of the discrimination and nonsense cant blame em, Just a pity its the bar and not the people working the door paying it out.

If a few of them want to have a drink in the pub they are banned not for their misdeeds but for what others have done.
I guess it would be really frustrating.

Cupatae

Verpiss dich wrote: »

If a few of them want to have a drink in the pub they are banned not for their misdeeds but for what others have done.
I guess it would be really frustrating.

I agree, it is nonsense to punish someone for the crimes of another.. but at the same time not to pussy foot around it and call a spade a spade the reputation didnt spring up out of the ground and it isnt completely unwarranted

But the bars have to play by the rules and give everyone a fair shake once or they are gonna keep paying out.

falinn merking

Cupatae wrote: »

I agree, it is nonsense to punish someone for the crimes of another.. but at the same time not to pussy foot around it and call a spade a spade the reputation didnt spring up out of the ground and it isnt completely unwarranted

But the bars have to play by the rules and give everyone a fair shake once or they are gonna keep paying out.

Yes come in and behave or you had your chance and messed it up.

But to never get a chance breeds hate.

Heres Johnny

end of the road wrote: »

Heres Johnny wrote: »

few people like them. That's why pubs won't serve them.

the reason pubs won't serve them isn't because few like them. after all, for all the publicans know, nobody likes anybody. you don't have to be nasty toards an individual in any way to not like them. pubs won't serve them for their own bigoted reasons, and there is little incentive in terms of the law to force that to change. but it won't remain that way forever

Have you proof that pubs won't serve them for their own bigoted reasons??
Where's your evidence for that?
Otherwise I dismiss your statement.
Oh yeah, you have none.

See how stupid it sounds when someone dismisses your argument simply by asking for proof

sbsquarepants

riffmongous wrote: »

And if there was a pub in England or Australia that didn't let you in because you're irish you'd be grand with it?

Grand, no probably not. But I wouldn't want to drink there. If you don't want my money then that's fine, i'll go spend it somewhere else. I have been refused entry to many pubs (well more so nightclubs) over the years, I never once argued with the man on the door - if they didn't want my money there was always somewhere else that did, I wouldn't spend money in some kip that didn't welcome me in.
What I certainly wouldn't do is wangle my way in the door and then get pissed and smash the place up.

Verpiss dich wrote: »

Yes come in and behave or you had your chance and messed it up.

But to never get a chance breeds hate.

Never get a chance? You must have missed the hundreds of times that traveller weddings, funerals, general nights out have ended in world war 3. They've had their chance, they messed it up!

I'm fúcked if I would let them in to my pub / hotel. I also wouldn't drink around a large group of them - it's just a problem waiting to happen. That's experience talking, not bigotry. I don't distrust them because I'm a bigot, I distrust them because I have practically never had a good experience with them.

Maybe 1 in every 1000 interactions or less with settled people have ended in any problem for me. That figure would be at least 2 out of every 3 with travellers.

In my experience (which is the most reliable way I can judge the world) travellers are many, many hundreds of times more likely to cause problems than settled people. That's my personal experience of them, and it is not all that different from anyone elses whom I personally know.

CosmicJay

The UN can harp on about how travellers are a persecuted minority all they like.

I will not change my tune as once bitten, twice shy.

Realistically after all of my dealings with them its 19 times bitten.

I don't want to live near them, I don't want to get to know them and I certainly don't want to drink with them.

If a load of travellers came in it'd be a 50/50 split as to whether I leave immediatly or stay to see what trouble they cause.

Recently enough they attempted to set up a site by the unused gym by Lamb Doyles.

Dr Brown

CosmicJay wrote: »

The UN can harp on about how travellers are a persecuted minority all they like.

I will not change my tune as once bitten, twice shy.

Realistically after all of my dealings with them its 19 times bitten.

I don't want to live near them, I don't want to get to know them and I certainly don't want to drink with them.

If a load of travellers came in it'd be a 50/50 split as to whether I leave immediatly or stay to see what trouble they cause.

Recently enough they attempted to set up a site by the unused gym by Lamb Doyles.

The do gooders never seen to ask the question why travellers are "discriminated" against in the first place.

Pubs are in the business of making money they would not block a certain demographic coming into their pub unless they had a very good reason.

Dr Brown

Dr Brown wrote: »

The do gooders never seen to ask the question why travellers are "discriminated" against in the first place.

Pubs are in the business of making money they would not block a certain demographic coming into their pub unless they had a very good reason.

Last time I checked, the law is not decided by pubs and publicans. When landlords in England turned down Irish lodgers 50 years ago, I presume you would have been trotting out the "well, they must have a very good reason, after all landlords are in the business of making money".

Discrimination is discrimination is discrimination. You either tolerate it or you don't. You can't have a "well, that group kinda have it coming to them..."

sbsquarepants

Deleted User wrote: »

Discrimination is discrimination is discrimination. You either tolerate it or you don't. You can't have a "well, that group kinda have it coming to them..."

Maybe you can't. I have no problem with it.

Is it discrimination? Yes, sort of
Can I tolerate it? Yes
Is it deserved? Yes, very much so.

It's not really discrimination to use a bit of cop on. If you let a group of travellers in to your pub, or let them have a wedding in your hotel or something like that. It is way more likely to end in tears than letting basically any other group of people in. That's fact, not bigotry - this reputation didn't spring from peoples imaginations, it sprang from what they witnessed with their own eyes!

sbsquarepants

It's just a crock of shít to say you have to treat everyone the same regardless of how they behave.

If every time you had dealings with the local football team, one of them robbed you, or hit you, or abused you in some way - you'd stop dealing with them. Even though there might be 1 or 2 of them who were sound, it just wouldn't be worth the hassle. If this happened for year after year even though the team members changed, you'd rightly assume that the club itself was just rotten and you'd stop dealing with them altogether even without knowing the individual players at all.

That would be discrimination, but it would also be the sensible thing to do!