Nightclubs- any duty of care?

Roger Hassenforder

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

A large group of work colleagues, some friendly with some more than others, some relative strangers. It had split into little groups. She wasnt part of my immediate work circle/group.

Yet, you say..

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Anyway, while we were minding her and formulating a plan to get her home,

So at the time she was removed from the premises by the bouncers there was at least a few of you ("we were minding her"). So she was never dumped outside and left alone? Or if she was it was because all her work colleagues decided to stay on after the bouncers had removed her, and absolved themselves of any duty of care to their colleague?

Or, at least some of you went outside with her, and she was never left on her own at all?

I do get what you mean, but where does duty of care start/stop? This girl was never on her own, so the bouncers removed her and left it to her friends to organise getting her home.

I'd think if bouncers and pubs took it upon themselves to babysit everyone who drank too much on a night out then they could be accused of enabling problem drinkers. Should night clubs become B&Bs too? To allow those a little worse for wear to sober up? Should taxi drivers be called and the responsibility handed to them to get these people home safely?

I don't think there's an easy answer. But in the situation we are talking about, the girl was in a group. A group who were aware she needed to get home. The bouncers took her off the premises, and I assume the friends then organised to get her home?

Twas a deposit outside with a fcuk off shes someone elses problem! There was absolutely no "ok, are ye her friends, shes all yours".

I hadnt seen her for about an hour, dont know how much she had, but apparently she wasnt "playing senior hurling". So theyd no idea whether i was with her. we were rounding up survivors and triaging the casualties. She kinda was and wasnt in a group at that stage.

I agree theres no easy answer, and there must be an element of personal responsibility, but in all my years of being locked, being minded and minding locked people, there was something very different about this. Also dont think ive ever been out with someone so completely feckin wasted. Ive been fcuked out of bars, and i cant say i never deserved it. I dont think she deserved this. There was just something so callous, and completely disregarding of her safety and dignity.

There was no way id expect a taxi driver to take her in her condition.
Maybe a few minutes in a quiet place with a coffee before fcuking her out might have not have been an unrealistic expectation.

Roger Hassenforder

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

Ok, so say the club has a responsibility to a very drunk person? What is that responsibility?

Not let them get very drunk? (So limit everyone's drink consumption because it would be impossible/discriminatory to pick and choose?)
Call the guards?
Call an ambulance?
Call a taxi?
Call their mammy?
Let them sit it out to sober up?

What if a person shows up at a club door too pissed/out of it to stand properly? What is their responsibility there?

Call the guards?
Ambulance?
Mammy?
Let them in to snooze it off?

And where does that stop? Do you let people know they can go out, get off their face and someone else will take responsibility for them and facilitate their carry on? A&Es all over the country are filled every weekend with 'regulars' who drink too much, fall over and ring an ambulance to come get them.

Its a bit different when someone shows up at your premises wasted. Youve no obligation to take them in.
But if youre facilitating someone getting into a state where they cant stand or talk, depositing them outside and effectively abandoning them is not a decent thing to do.
Legally is another issue!

Big Bag of Chips

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

There was no way id expect a taxi driver to take her in her condition.
Maybe a few minutes in a quiet place with a coffee before fcuking her out might have not have been an unrealistic expectation.

If she was as bad as you say, a few minutes and a coffee wasn't going to make much difference to her.

Roger Hassenforder

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

There was no way id expect a taxi driver to take her in her condition.
Maybe a few minutes in a quiet place with a coffee before fcuking her out might have not have been an unrealistic expectation.

If she was as bad as you say, a few minutes and a coffee wasn't going to make much difference to her.

Ambulance level wasted so.

Big Bag of Chips

So did any of you call an ambulance for her?

Actually, what did happen her in the end?

Roger Hassenforder

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

So did any of you call an ambulance for her?

Actually, what did happen her in the end?

We were debating it, her bestie was against it.
I carried her to MaccyDs, sat her down for abiut 30mins, then stuck her in a taxi. Havent a clue how the bestie got her out.
Fair play to the driver for taking her.

Be some craic at work tomorrow.

Big Bag of Chips

And what would you have liked the club to do? Are you going to approach them with a complaint/suggestion?

freshpopcorn

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

And what would you have liked the club to do? Are you going to approach them with a complaint/suggestion?

Just out of interest have you ever seen a bouncer being a little to rough with somebody?

FTA69

Sometimes you're screwed no matter what you do. I've often been left dealing with someone smashed out of her face at the end of the night totally out of it and trying to do the right thing.

One time after service had stopped I found a woman passed out in the cubicle of the men's jacks covered in her own sick and p*ss. After informing her brother and her party of her situation your man went mental at me accusing me of potentially abusing her. So at 2.45am when I'm knackered after a shift I then have to sit there and humour some pompous c*nt about how it isn't my fault she got twisted.

Other times I would find a woman slumped outside or near the vicinity, have to take her phone out of her bag and call the last dialled numbers to locate her friends (often phones would be unlocked) As a last resort I'd look up "home" and call her father to pick her up. I once waited until 3.40am with a blacked out girl and a female colleague only to be accosted by the woman's father about the state she was in. (Totally my fault of course). Not so much as a f*cking thanks.

The reality is that a substantial portion of the Irish population cannot handle their drink, become nasty and boorish when on it and have a massive sense of self-entitlement and take no responsibility at all for their actions preferring instead to blame bouncers or whoever else.

Businesses do have a duty of care, but let's be honest - it's far easier to not get f*cked up in the first place and have some common sense and behave like an adult. And as for "my drink was spiked", total rubbish. If I'd a pound for every time I heard that. I usually ended up wondering to myself "which one of the seven double vodkas was the drug in?"

dxhound2005

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

And what would you have liked the club to do? Are you going to approach them with a complaint/suggestion?

He already made this helpful suggestion:

There was no way id expect a taxi driver to take her in her condition.
Maybe a few minutes in a quiet place with a coffee before fcuking her out might have not have been an unrealistic expectation.

Big Bag of Chips

Fair enough, but there's a chance the bouncer/owner isn't reading this thread. So maybe they could bring that suggestion to them?

FTA69

dxhound2005 wrote: »

He already made this helpful suggestion:

There was no way id expect a taxi driver to take her in her condition.
Maybe a few minutes in a quiet place with a coffee before fcuking her out might have not have been an unrealistic expectation.

Unfortunately you sometimes become desensitised to drunks when you have to deal with it every evening as well as the abuse you often get when you have to wake them up and sort them out.

Roger Hassenforder

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

Fair enough, but there's a chance the bouncer/owner isn't reading this thread. So maybe they could bring that suggestion to them?

while I'm a great man to put pen to paper (yes even in this day and age!), I dunno could i be arsed.
I dont think there's anything to be gained.
What am I even asking for? more empathy? More humanity? A free drink for her next time she's passing?

might pop an email to tell them I think they might have distinguished themselves a bit better, but other than that, I just wont go back.

leggo

dxhound2005 wrote: »

He already made this helpful suggestion:

There was no way id expect a taxi driver to take her in her condition.
Maybe a few minutes in a quiet place with a coffee before fcuking her out might have not have been an unrealistic expectation.

Impractical. Where would you put up these drunks? (You're looking at around 20-30 per night on an average Saturday in an average nightclub) Do you take them into a staff area against their will? That's imprisonment, even when security detain someone who's committed a crime they have to recite Miranda rights and inform them fully of what's going on. You could get sued €10-20,000 per person if they decided to (drunks don't necessarily see the bigger picture), the cases wouldn't even go to court before settlement was offered. Do you take them away from their friends? Or do you bring a gang of 10-15 drunk people per drunk into a small office with them? What about the coffee? That's 20-30 cups per night, now we're looking at having to allocate a budget towards this. I could go on if you like...

None of this makes any sense when you put the slightest bit of thought and industry knowledge into it. To do what you're suggesting, we'd need to re-write several articles of Irish law to even begin to make it practical. And over what? Because one person might have got carried out and left on kegs in Cork once and wasn't hurt or affected in any way, but it looked a bit insensitive?

MadDog76

FTA69 wrote: »

Sometimes you're screwed no matter what you do. I've often been left dealing with someone smashed out of her face at the end of the night totally out of it and trying to do the right thing.

One time after service had stopped I found a woman passed out in the cubicle of the men's jacks covered in her own sick and p*ss. After informing her brother and her party of her situation your man went mental at me accusing me of potentially abusing her. So at 2.45am when I'm knackered after a shift I then have to sit there and humour some pompous c*nt about how it isn't my fault she got twisted.

Other times I would find a woman slumped outside or near the vicinity, have to take her phone out of her bag and call the last dialled numbers to locate her friends (often phones would be unlocked) As a last resort I'd look up "home" and call her father to pick her up. I once waited until 3.40am with a blacked out girl and a female colleague only to be accosted by the woman's father about the state she was in. (Totally my fault of course). Not so much as a f*cking thanks.

The reality is that a substantial portion of the Irish population cannot handle their drink, become nasty and boorish when on it and have a massive sense of self-entitlement and take no responsibility at all for their actions preferring instead to blame bouncers or whoever else.

Businesses do have a duty of care, but let's be honest - it's far easier to not get f*cked up in the first place and have some common sense and behave like an adult. And as for "my drink was spiked", total rubbish. If I'd a pound for every time I heard that. I usually ended up wondering to myself "which one of the seven double vodkas was the drug in?"

It's not on that you took abuse whilst doing the right thing but at least you can say you did do the right, and decent, thing and that's all that should matter to you on a personal basis.

Roger Hassenforder

leggo wrote: »

dxhound2005 wrote: »

He already made this helpful suggestion:

There was no way id expect a taxi driver to take her in her condition.
Maybe a few minutes in a quiet place with a coffee before fcuking her out might have not have been an unrealistic expectation.

Impractical. Where would you put up these drunks? (You're looking at around 20-30 per night on an average Saturday in an average nightclub) Do you take them into a staff area against their will? That's imprisonment, even when security detain someone who's committed a crime they have to recite Miranda rights and inform them fully of what's going on. You could get sued €10-20,000 per person if they decided to (drunks don't necessarily see the bigger picture), the cases wouldn't even go to court before settlement was offered. Do you take them away from their friends? Or do you bring a gang of 10-15 drunk people per drunk into a small office with them? What about the coffee? That's 20-30 cups per night, now we're looking at having to allocate a budget towards this. I could go on if you like...

None of this makes any sense when you put the slightest bit of thought and industry knowledge into it. To do what you're suggesting, we'd need to re-write several articles of Irish law to even begin to make it practical. And over what? Because one person might have got carried out and left on kegs in Cork once and wasn't hurt or affected in any way, but it looked a bit insensitive?

Theres been a lot of sh1t3 in this thread, but in fairness, thats championship , feck no, thats Premiership stuff.

Now were into detaining people, and Miranda rights - hordes of people being corralled. Statute book revisions.
From an insider no less.

Pintman Paddy Losty

Yamileth Sticky Romance wrote: »

A few subjects I rarely spend too much time on here, cyclists, bouncers, Israel and taxi drivers.

I've no doubt your story has an element of truth, but I find it hard to believe your friend was lifted up and thrown onto some kegs, I think that part is a spoof.

There ya go, my final say on the matter.

Hope your friends hangover isn't too bad.

Sounds like you're the one spoofing.

Also seems like you have a typical bouncer attitude. "That's my final say on the matter"

Living up too the big thick-headed bouncer with a head full o sawdust stereotype.

minidazzler

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

I can only take her at her word she thinks her drink was spiked, maybe its her way of coping with being mortified about being so wasted.
(Id say it was the gat myself TBH. cf. OP).

I agree with personal responsibility, its unfortunately all too often absent. We are always looking for someone to blame. Shes responsible for her condition.

But if you allow, even facilitate someone becoming so wasted on your premises, i think youve some responsibility and cant abdicate it by just removing someone outside and leaving them to their fate.

If she had been attacked/raped etc. would a court hold they failed in some duty of care i wonder.

No a court wouldn't.

Her drink was unlikely to have been spiked, particularly in the bar you're on about which has one of the strictest door codes in Cork. People don't just randomly give away free drugs.

Can I ask... were you guys in rounds that night or was she going to the bar herself.... this is the only place the premises may have failed, if they either served her directly after she was in such a state as to be a danger to herself or if they KNOWINGLY allowed someone else to be served for her.

I know the bar you're on about (please stop calling it a night club), and genuinely those bouncers are really damn good at their jobs.

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Cant really disagree with anything there , shes responsible for her state. Its the actual removal itself, but chiefly the post removal abandonment thats leaving a sour taste. I doubt they knew she was with us. If a clubs staff did that to my daughter, it would be closed a few months for rebuilding.

Youre correct also. I wont be back.

As said above, I know the bar you're on about. I wouldn't classify the security as abandoning her, they ALWAYS have a guy on the door. Literally always. And I guarantee she was being watched by them. But they legally cannot keep an intoxicated person on the premises.


In the interest of fairness, I will say, I work in the bar industry in Cork, though not in the bar you were in or any of the bars in the group that bar is in.

We, barstaff, managers, and security alike, tend to take our jobs quite seriously because we know the harm which our product can cause when misused. But the guys in that bar are top notch. I get why you would think they effectively just abandoned her, but I disagree with you. I don't know any of them personally and don't particularly like that bar itself (the connecting bar is my spirit animal though), those security staff really are top notch. On the door on a saturday night there's 40+ years experience. They are genuinely good security staff though.

minidazzler

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I don't think the OP is looking for the bouncers to babysit or look after their friend for the night but from being out in Cork in the past anybody who they wish to ejected from the premises are just pushed out the door and thrown to the ground.

Where in the name of all that's good have you actually seen that happen in Cork? I've been drinking in Cork regularly for 10 years... I've seen people forcefully ejected hundreds of times, as a punter, as a staff member and more recently as a manager. I've never seen someone thrown to the ground. I have seen people being put to the ground after they've taken swings at bouncers. But have never one just seen a Cork bouncer throw someone onto the ground. Even when a plonker might deserve it.

So, please, enlighten me. Where have you seen someone thrown to the ground with no aggression on their part?

Roger Hassenforder

minidazzler wrote: »

No a court wouldn't.

Her drink was unlikely to have been spiked, particularly in the bar you're on about which has one of the strictest door codes in Cork. People don't just randomly give away free drugs.

Can I ask... were you guys in rounds that night or was she going to the bar herself.... this is the only place the premises may have failed, if they either served her directly after she was in such a state as to be a danger to herself or if they KNOWINGLY allowed someone else to be served for her.

I know the bar you're on about (please stop calling it a night club), and genuinely those bouncers are really damn good at their jobs.



As said above, I know the bar you're on about. I wouldn't classify the security as abandoning her, they ALWAYS have a guy on the door. Literally always. And I guarantee she was being watched by them. But they legally cannot keep an intoxicated person on the premises.


In the interest of fairness, I will say, I work in the bar industry in Cork, though not in the bar you were in or any of the bars in the group that bar is in.

We, barstaff, managers, and security alike, tend to take our jobs quite seriously because we know the harm which our product can cause when misused. But the guys in that bar are top notch. I get why you would think they effectively just abandoned her, but I disagree with you. I don't know any of them personally and don't particularly like that bar itself (the connecting bar is my spirit animal though), those security staff really are top notch. On the door on a saturday night there's 40+ years experience. They are genuinely good security staff though.

Thanks for that, and fair enough for disagreeing.
Maybe they were keeping an eye on her via cctv. Maybe i am wrong them. But as i said earlier, there was something not right/very off/different about this one. .
She was in the front, i was in the back, ive no real idea how much suds she had, and its a very valid point, maybe her friends have responsibility for getting her that way.

The point about legally keeping someone intoxicated on their premses is a new one to me. How is this enforced? Are there guidelines for workers in the trade, and does it mention any duty of care? What levelof intoxication is unacceptable?
Genuinely curious!

s8n

Whats Gat ?

Esel

s8n wrote: »

Whats Gat ?

Cork version of khat?

FTA69

s8n wrote: »

Whats Gat ?

Cork slang for Curly Wurly bars.

listermint

If I'm not mistaken, this was one of the very reasons for minimum unit alcohol pricing that the VFI their lobbyists and some TDs spent the last year airing on the radio waves , through emails and in print that pubs were safer than drinking at home because professional people won't serve you and establishments are there to ensure you are looked after.


Seems like it's complete nonsense they were peddling

Rumpy Pumpy

Has anyone else noticed a change in the type of bouncer used? For years it was the bald headed knuckle-dragger in a plastic jacket sort. That seems to have been replaced by the bearded McGregor lookalike sort of bouncer. Also a knuckle-dragger of course, with the emotional and cognitive intelligence of a newt.

sbsquarepants

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

She was in the front, i was in the back, ive no real idea how much suds she had.

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

and i dont recall her knocking back the gat like some of us.

Is this how the cool kids talk in Cork now? (boy):D

FTA69

Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »

Has anyone else noticed a change in the type of bouncer used? For years it was the bald headed knuckle-dragger in a plastic jacket sort. That seems to have been replaced by the bearded McGregor lookalike sort of bouncer. Also a knuckle-dragger of course, with the emotional and cognitive intelligence of a newt.

I was a bouncer and was well known for my convivial joie de vivre and razor intellect.

Once on a student night, I had a few trivial pursuit cards and if I suspected someone was borderline on alcohol levels but in a good mood I would ask them to pick a category and let them in if they got it right.

A merry time was had by all.

JupiterKid

This thread has become an anti-bouncer rant. Sure a few of them are tools but the vast majority do a sh*tty job with no thanks for it, in terms of the lowlife a they have to deal with.

I think nightclubs have a duty of care insofar as not to serve anyone clearly completely plastered any more alcohol, but its the customer that is ultimately responsible for getting themselves into such a state in the first place.

Peatys

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

So there we were last night in a late bar/nightclub establishment proximal to the GPO in Cork, on our Christmas night out.

No one really drunk, except at the end of the night one of our group was rather suddenly in very poor shape, and i dont recall her knocking back the gat like some of us. (Maybe her drink might have been spiked, maybe she was just wasted, i dunno).

Anyway, while we were minding her and formulating a plan to get her home, over come the bouncers, rather forcibly push us out of the way, lift her outside and deposit her on some kegs. And walk off.

I was struck by how little they seemed to give a sh1t, and if we werent with her, (not that they knew who we were, and whether we were with her), she was in serious trouble. In fairness, a lot of patrons were asking if she was ok, which is appreciated.

Notwithstanding the whole "responsible drinking" and personal reaponsibility for owns own actions, have such bars/clubs any duty of care or responsibility towards their customers.
In 30 years of drinking, i never someone so wasted treated this badly.

Thoughts?

Think we'll stick with this

leggo

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Theres been a lot of sh1t3 in this thread, but in fairness, thats championship , feck no, thats Premiership stuff.

Now were into detaining people, and Miranda rights - hordes of people being corralled. Statute book revisions.
From an insider no less.

I'm sorry your **** idea (which basically amounts to "someone...do...something?") doesn't work in the real world. You're wrong. I get that you're struggling with that but the rant you're looking to have is dumb and people are trying to point out the practical failures in your mindset.

They did have every right to remove your friend. They don't have any responsibility towards her safety once she's not in their club. The law and insurance policies of premises would make anything that's been suggested unworkable. You're just off the mark this time out and you're best just shrugging your shoulders.