Nightclubs- any duty of care?

leggo

And, since I'm having fun now, here are some supplementary facts:

The burden of proof doesn't fall on me here. That's not how proving something works, it's impossible to prove a negative. The OP has made assertions* about an incident that he claims he was a witness to and it falls on him to prove it happened beyond reasonable doubt. Since his account was, by admission, not fully witnessed, occurred while he was drunk and includes people making unnatural decisions that industry experts argue wouldn't be likely for people in said industry to make, its perfectly fair to cast doubt on his account and totally his obligation to prove it.

*Assertions, btw, that now border on defamatory since he has given enough information to identify the club and day of the incident, thus directly questioning the competence of identifiable security guards. If members of staff of said club were to read this on one of Ireland's largest websites, legally they would be perfectly within their rights to file a civil claim against the OP for defamation of character. Now that's a fact.

So, OP, once again with all of that in mind: do you want to stand over your story?

xckjoo

For all the people wondering how the niteclub could safely and legally handle people that are extremely drunk, would the simple answer not be that they should be cutting them off before they get to that state? If they show up that drunk, turn them away. If they're getting too drunk inside, cut them off.

arybvtcw0eolkf

sonyair wrote: »

when I did my training for the door licence, duty of care was 100m from the front door of the venue and included anyone who was there whether they were drunk or not.
Also when I did pubs and clubs before you could not remove someone without giving them a previous warning. Removing anybody just because is not acceptable along with the phrase "not tonight", anybody who gets this response should ask for a valid reason as we are all covered by law of discrimiantion which there are nine reasons.

Ok I'll say it now. You've never worked a door, not a hope.

A duty of care of 100m lol. So if for example I'm working the door of Fitzsimmons in TB I'm also responsible for the door of Bobs, Farringtons, The Mezz, the Templebar pub etc?.. Thats a ridiculous statement to make.

And you're not required to forewarn anyone of anything, another ridiculous statement to make.

Anyway, I'll ignore your argument because you've no idea what you're talking about and I suspect you'll stick to your line.

Speaking with 25 years door experience here, and I've worked on just about ever door in Templebar, the last door I worked on for seven years. Recently closed so I made the decision that after 25 years its time for me to retire.

First off yes there was some pricks who shouldn't be on a door, honestly they're found out fairly quickly and dropped from the roster, that or justifying their actions to a guard or a judge puts manners on them.

Everything you do is a judgement call, and everyone you speak to is potentially going to explode in your face.

Example, someone is clearly too drunk at 9pm. Its a long night and they're only going to get worse, the likihood is you're going to have to ask them to finish up and leave ~ one of two scenarios might play out here. They're reasonable people with normally mature heads so they leave, no trouble.

Two, they get argumentative and things begin to escalate despite staffs best efforts to calm the situation. Then their mates join in either with a reasoned argument, and a lot of times this works (ie you're happy to leave the drunk in the company of their mates, its a 50/50 call). Or their mates get aggressive, you can't back down and have your authority undermined, then you lose the respect of barstaff and managers who reply on you to protect them, the customers and premises.

So someone is escorted out. The very last thing is bouncer wants to do is strongarm someone from the premises, it looks **** and even for strong fit lads its not all that easy either.

Or lets say its near closing time, you've had a good night. No trouble, great craic out of everyone and someone is either legless drunk or a little argumentative or other around them.

You look at the time, you've 40 minutes to closing (for example), you're more inclined to leave that person and have a gentle word ~ the head doorman or a very experienced bar man and door man will be good at this. You return to the door, no trouble and everyone continues to have a good time.

There are so many scenario's I could talk about here, I've seen just about everything in those 25 years except a murder..

I don't think I've a low IQ, but I left school very young and have only a minimal secondary school education. So why did I do the doors so long?, well first off I got offered a job when myself and my wife were trying to figure how we'd pay this month mortage, and this weeks food. So the offer of door work got me out of a massive hole.

I continued to do it because it helped pay my mortage, then when the kids came it helped there too. When they were in secondary school and looking at third level the doors helped pay off two college degree's ~ as a result my children will never have to work a door.

Despite being assaulted more times than I could possibly remember, taken dogs abuse from **** who'd I'd rather have punched if I was allowed. I've been sexually assaulted, yes ladies grabbing a bouncer by the balls is great fun for you, its fooking painful for us and if I returned the favor I'd be in a world of hurt and considered a sex offender (and this happens a lot).

I've been hit with all sorts of weapons (never stabbed) but threatened with knives and syringes, and even hit across the head with a sewer rod one night.. I've been covered in piss, sh*t and vomit. I've listened to every kind of hard luck story & spoof (the OP's story is largely a spoof).

I've seen the very worse of human behavior, and the kindest.

I won't miss the doors, but I come away still believing that 99% of people are lovely, genuine people.

I've some CCTV footage on youtube (PM me if you want a link) which I won't post here. In one we're protecting a young girl who has just been assaulted by her boyfriend, he head butted her then bit her nose!. He brags to me in the clip that he goes home and **** about hitting her.

In another a totally innocent punter has a heavy wooden stool smashed over his head, it would have been far worse but it happened two meters from me so I took the offender down fairly quick.

The third a drunk who was just being an ass to customers and staff was asked to leave the bar. He did, until he got to the door then turned on us without warning.

Oh, I've another of a lad being put out for being a prick to people. He struggled, we let him up provided he walked away. He did, then came back aggressively so I put him down and we held him for the cops. Later he was released, when to his ex girlfriends house, broke in and raped her (that made the national media, as did the earlier story of the assault of a GF).

Another I'm sucker punched by a passerby, no reason. Just punched, he broke two of my teeth ~ but it cost him two grand in court.

I often joke that there's a book in me, and if someone skilled was to work on it I bet they'd get a a half decent one too. Twenty five years on Dublin doors gives you a few yarns to tell.

lt;dr ~ I was a bouncer for 25 yrs blah blah blah

FTA69

What are you on about Makikomi? Of course you have to give a warning first. I mean, anytime I caught someone p*ssing all over the smoking area or calling the barmaid a stupid b*tch I would just hand-write them a warning and keep an eye on them. It’s not like you could ever countenance asking them to leave straight up.

arybvtcw0eolkf

FTA69 wrote: »

What are you on about Makikomi? Of course you have to give a warning first. I mean, anytime I caught someone p*ssing all over the smoking area or calling the barmaid a stupid b*tch I would just hand-write them a warning and keep an eye on them. It’s not like you could ever countenance asking them to leave straight up.

Yes, you've just witness an assault [to the punter] "you're a very naughty boy, tut tut tut. don't do that again or I'll be putting you on the naughty step".

There's some Walter Mitty's about.

SusieBlue

Yamileth Sticky Romance wrote: »

Ok I'll say it now. You've never worked a door, not a hope.

A duty of care of 100m lol. So if for example I'm working the door of Fitzsimmons in TB I'm also responsible for the door of Bobs, Farringtons, The Mezz, the Templebar pub etc?.. Thats a ridiculous statement to make.

And you're not required to forewarn anyone of anything, another ridiculous statement to make.

Anyway, I'll ignore your argument because you've no idea what you're talking about and I suspect you'll stick to your line.

Speaking with 25 years door experience here, and I've worked on just about ever door in Templebar, the last door I worked on for seven years. Recently closed so I made the decision that after 25 years its time for me to retire.

First off yes there was some pricks who shouldn't be on a door, honestly they're found out fairly quickly and dropped from the roster, that or justifying their actions to a guard or a judge puts manners on them.

Everything you do is a judgement call, and everyone you speak to is potentially going to explode in your face.

Example, someone is clearly too drunk at 9pm. Its a long night and they're only going to get worse, the likihood is you're going to have to ask them to finish up and leave ~ one of two scenarios might play out here. They're reasonable people with normally mature heads so they leave, no trouble.

Two, they get argumentative and things begin to escalate despite staffs best efforts to calm the situation. Then their mates join in either with a reasoned argument, and a lot of times this works (ie you're happy to leave the drunk in the company of their mates, its a 50/50 call). Or their mates get aggressive, you can't back down and have your authority undermined, then you lose the respect of barstaff and managers who reply on you to protect them, the customers and premises.

So someone is escorted out. The very last thing is bouncer wants to do is strongarm someone from the premises, it looks **** and even for strong fit lads its not all that easy either.

Or lets say its near closing time, you've had a good night. No trouble, great craic out of everyone and someone is either legless drunk or a little argumentative or other around them.

You look at the time, you've 40 minutes to closing (for example), you're more inclined to leave that person and have a gentle word ~ the head doorman or a very experienced bar man and door man will be good at this. You return to the door, no trouble and everyone continues to have a good time.

There are so many scenario's I could talk about here, I've seen just about everything in those 25 years except a murder..

I don't think I've a low IQ, but I left school very young and have only a minimal secondary school education. So why did I do the doors so long?, well first off I got offered a job when myself and my wife were trying to figure how we'd pay this month mortage, and this weeks food. So the offer of door work got me out of a massive hole.

I continued to do it because it helped pay my mortage, then when the kids came it helped there too. When they were in secondary school and looking at third level the doors helped pay off two college degree's ~ as a result my children will never have to work a door.

Despite being assaulted more times than I could possibly remember, taken dogs abuse from **** who'd I'd rather have punched if I was allowed. I've been sexually assaulted, yes ladies grabbing a bouncer by the balls is great fun for you, its fooking painful for us and if I returned the favor I'd be in a world of hurt and considered a sex offender (and this happens a lot).

I've been hit with all sorts of weapons (never stabbed) but threatened with knives and syringes, and even hit across the head with a sewer rod one night.. I've been covered in piss, sh*t and vomit. I've listened to every kind of hard luck story & spoof (the OP's story is largely a spoof).

I've seen the very worse of human behavior, and the kindest.

I won't miss the doors, but I come away still believing that 99% of people are lovely, genuine people.

I've some CCTV footage on youtube (PM me if you want a link) which I won't post here. In one we're protecting a young girl who has just been assaulted by her boyfriend, he head butted her then bit her nose!. He brags to me in the clip that he goes home and **** about hitting her.

In another a totally innocent punter has a heavy wooden stool smashed over his head, it would have been far worse but it happened two meters from me so I took the offender down fairly quick.

The third a drunk who was just being an ass to customers and staff was asked to leave the bar. He did, until he got to the door then turned on us without warning.

Oh, I've another of a lad being put out for being a prick to people. He struggled, we let him up provided he walked away. He did, then came back aggressively so I put him down and we held him for the cops. Later he was released, when to his ex girlfriends house, broke in and raped her (that made the national media, as did the earlier story of the assault of a GF).

Another I'm sucker punched by a passerby, no reason. Just punched, he broke two of my teeth ~ but it cost him two grand in court.

I often joke that there's a book in me, and if someone skilled was to work on it I bet they'd get a a half decent one too. Twenty five years on Dublin doors gives you a few yarns to tell.

lt;dr ~ I was a bouncer for 25 yrs blah blah blah

Finally, a post that sums up the actual reality of the working in the bar trade. I'd thank this twice if I could.
Only for the diligence of my colleagues in security, I would have gotten far worse abuse while working in a club than what I did.
It may be a thankless job from the general public but in my own experience, the lads (and 1/2 ladies) I worked with were excellent and I was more than grateful that they had my back when I was being shouted at/called names/spat at/groped/pushed/hit/talked down to, the list goes on.

falinn merking

Yamileth Sticky Romance wrote: »

Ok I'll say it now. You've never worked a door, not a hope.

A duty of care of 100m lol. So if for example I'm working the door of Fitzsimmons in TB I'm also responsible for the door of Bobs, Farringtons, The Mezz, the Templebar pub etc?.. Thats a ridiculous statement to make.

And you're not required to forewarn anyone of anything, another ridiculous statement to make.

Anyway, I'll ignore your argument because you've no idea what you're talking about and I suspect you'll stick to your line.

Speaking with 25 years door experience here, and I've worked on just about ever door in Templebar, the last door I worked on for seven years. Recently closed so I made the decision that after 25 years its time for me to retire.

First off yes there was some pricks who shouldn't be on a door, honestly they're found out fairly quickly and dropped from the roster, that or justifying their actions to a guard or a judge puts manners on them.

Everything you do is a judgement call, and everyone you speak to is potentially going to explode in your face.

Example, someone is clearly too drunk at 9pm. Its a long night and they're only going to get worse, the likihood is you're going to have to ask them to finish up and leave ~ one of two scenarios might play out here. They're reasonable people with normally mature heads so they leave, no trouble.

Two, they get argumentative and things begin to escalate despite staffs best efforts to calm the situation. Then their mates join in either with a reasoned argument, and a lot of times this works (ie you're happy to leave the drunk in the company of their mates, its a 50/50 call). Or their mates get aggressive, you can't back down and have your authority undermined, then you lose the respect of barstaff and managers who reply on you to protect them, the customers and premises.

So someone is escorted out. The very last thing is bouncer wants to do is strongarm someone from the premises, it looks **** and even for strong fit lads its not all that easy either.

Or lets say its near closing time, you've had a good night. No trouble, great craic out of everyone and someone is either legless drunk or a little argumentative or other around them.

You look at the time, you've 40 minutes to closing (for example), you're more inclined to leave that person and have a gentle word ~ the head doorman or a very experienced bar man and door man will be good at this. You return to the door, no trouble and everyone continues to have a good time.

There are so many scenario's I could talk about here, I've seen just about everything in those 25 years except a murder..

I don't think I've a low IQ, but I left school very young and have only a minimal secondary school education. So why did I do the doors so long?, well first off I got offered a job when myself and my wife were trying to figure how we'd pay this month mortage, and this weeks food. So the offer of door work got me out of a massive hole.

I continued to do it because it helped pay my mortage, then when the kids came it helped there too. When they were in secondary school and looking at third level the doors helped pay off two college degree's ~ as a result my children will never have to work a door.

Despite being assaulted more times than I could possibly remember, taken dogs abuse from **** who'd I'd rather have punched if I was allowed. I've been sexually assaulted, yes ladies grabbing a bouncer by the balls is great fun for you, its fooking painful for us and if I returned the favor I'd be in a world of hurt and considered a sex offender (and this happens a lot).

I've been hit with all sorts of weapons (never stabbed) but threatened with knives and syringes, and even hit across the head with a sewer rod one night.. I've been covered in piss, sh*t and vomit. I've listened to every kind of hard luck story & spoof (the OP's story is largely a spoof).

I've seen the very worse of human behavior, and the kindest.

I won't miss the doors, but I come away still believing that 99% of people are lovely, genuine people.

I've some CCTV footage on youtube (PM me if you want a link) which I won't post here. In one we're protecting a young girl who has just been assaulted by her boyfriend, he head butted her then bit her nose!. He brags to me in the clip that he goes home and **** about hitting her.

In another a totally innocent punter has a heavy wooden stool smashed over his head, it would have been far worse but it happened two meters from me so I took the offender down fairly quick.

The third a drunk who was just being an ass to customers and staff was asked to leave the bar. He did, until he got to the door then turned on us without warning.

Oh, I've another of a lad being put out for being a prick to people. He struggled, we let him up provided he walked away. He did, then came back aggressively so I put him down and we held him for the cops. Later he was released, when to his ex girlfriends house, broke in and raped her (that made the national media, as did the earlier story of the assault of a GF).

Another I'm sucker punched by a passerby, no reason. Just punched, he broke two of my teeth ~ but it cost him two grand in court.

I often joke that there's a book in me, and if someone skilled was to work on it I bet they'd get a a half decent one too. Twenty five years on Dublin doors gives you a few yarns to tell.

lt;dr ~ I was a bouncer for 25 yrs blah blah blah

Reading the above how can the VFI stare that we are safer drinking in one of their establishments?
And even decent people working on the door after a while this kind of thing will make them mean and aggressive.

Any family or friends I have enjoyed a drink with we have NEVER had a row or any incidents of any kind related to drink.

I have Never been violent ever but yet I always feel uneasy around door staff.

What is your thinking of the VFI lobbying the government to put a massive tariff on off licence sales?

FTA69

Verpiss dich wrote: »

Reading the above how can the VFI stare that we are safer drinking in one of their establishments?
And even decent people working on the door after a while this kind of thing will make them mean and aggressive.

Any family or friends I have enjoyed a drink with we have NEVER had a row or any incidents of any kind related to drink.

I have Never been violent ever but yet I always feel uneasy around door staff.

What is your thinking of the VFI lobbying the government to put a massive tariff on off licence sales?

Doorstaff are there to protect you and others from the small minority who act the fool with drink in them and to provide crowd control and a safe environment. If you don't want to go to pubs then don't, stay at home drinking cans.

But don't be whinging at doorstaff for doing a necessary job in an alcohol-serving venue.

Besides that, you've already made your snobbish and ignorant views clear in earlier posts.

falinn merking

FTA69 wrote: »

Besides that, you've already made your snobbish and ignorant views clear in earlier posts.

I did say sorry for that post.
And it was just a reaction to the idea of the girl getting booted out into the night.

However the more I have posts I have read of this thread the more I am thinking we did not read the full story in the original post.

I Enjoy a quite relaxing drink and everything about nightclubs I find off putting.

SusieBlue

I don't understand why you keep comparing a night out in a club to a night at home drinking with relatives. Saying you never row with your family when you drink isn't comparable so it's a moot point. It's simply irrelevant. Your family aren't strangers.

When I'm at home, I leave my purse full of money on the kitchen table and can rest assured that nothing will go missing from it. Because I love and trust my family.
However, if out in a restaurant I wouldn't dream of leaving my purse unattended on a table, simply because I don't put the same level of trust in the general public as I would my loved ones.
It isn't the waiters fault if I leave my purse unattended and someone steals it.

If you hate going out and are happy to drink at home I fail to see what your problem is.

falinn merking

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I don't understand why you keep comparing a night out in a club to a night at home drinking with relatives. Saying you never row with your family when you drink isn't comparable so it's a moot point. It's simply irrelevant. Your family aren't strangers.

If you hate going out and are happy to drink at home I fail to see what your problem is.

In this thread I have tried to show how stupid the VFIs clam is that people are safer drinking in one of their establishments while calling for higher prices for the home drinker.

There is an excellent point here even if I have dropped the ball a bit.

Galwayguy35

This is why alcohol prices are going to increase for sensible drinkers when fools who don't know when they have had enough and end up falling around the place and puking on the street.

But of course it's always the fault of someone else.

end of the road

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

This is why alcohol prices are going to increase for sensible drinkers when fools who don't know when they have had enough and end up falling around the place and puking on the street.

it won't be the reason but it will be used as the excuse. the reason prices will increase are the government wanting more money, the vintners wanting more money and the vintners wanting more protection at the expence of other alcohol sellers.

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

But of course it's always the fault of someone else.

for the price increases, of course it is the fault of government and the VFI and their members.

leggo

Again, we get it. You don't like paying for a pint. That's not even nearly what this is about though.

end of the road

leggo wrote: »

Again, we get it. You don't like paying for a pint. That's not even nearly what this is about though.

if that is aimed at me i haven't paid for a pint or set foot in a pub or club for years.
i'm still happy to call out the vitners and their lobby and supporters on their nonsense though.

JupiterKid

Yamileth Sticky Romance wrote: »

Yes, you've just witness an assault [to the punter] "you're a very naughty boy, tut tut tut. don't do that again or I'll be putting you on the naughty step".

There's some Walter Mitty's about.

You should write a book Yamileth Sticky Romance - I’d say it would be a great read. I’m sure you’ve seen more “colorful” human behavior in those 25 years than most on here will see in 5 lifetimes.

They say there’s a book in everyone.;)

Roger Hassenforder

leggo wrote: »

Yeah but the exchange of ideas stops when you talk about another's post as being, what was it, "the champions league of ****e ideas." Btw, it was your idea we were discussing. I was just making it a reality and showing you the list of obstacles that pushed it into the Champions League spots.

But this is amusing me now. So let's discuss your point in full. Here is what I think happened:

You claim that the security guards simply picked up your friend for being too drunk and placed here on a bunch of kegs, right? I find that extremely contentious for a start. To qualify: I've worked in security for over 10 years, am one of the most senior employees in my current firm and train pretty much all new staff in my region at this stage, so I know what notions even rookies right out of their FETAC course have going into the job. I've worked in every aspect of security: retail, bouncing, hotels, events, festivals, you name it. I also run events and have DJ'd in nightclubs and pubs for nearly as much time, so I go into venues and tell management how to run their bar for our events, security consultation included. Therefore I know how both security and management work in a wide variety of these venues, inside-out.

So two things every security guard (even the numpties) knows as soon as they've done their course is: cover your ****ing arse and don't use force or lay a finger on someone unless you absolutely have to or you could get sued. How did these security guards determine she was drunk? Was she passed out? If so, how did they determine that she hadn't, for example, had a heart attack or suffered some other medical mishap, which they would know would lose them their job if it was the case and they didn't respond correctly? Was there a complaint about her from another patron or staff member? This is the only plausible way they'd use any force without assessing the situation, in which case she was actively being a danger to herself or others and therefore fully legally liable to be removed from the premises. You wouldn't know if there was a complaint, would you? So it's not actually possible for you to know the full facts of this case, is it?

When they picked her up, how did they carry her? One under the arms and one carrying her legs like a stretcher? Or did one drag her out from under the shoulders? They did this with witnesses around? Again, another logical leap is required here, as even when you hear people moan about security guards bashing them unprovoked, these contentious, one-sided stories with a clear agenda involving said 'knuckle draggers' usually take place in a place without witnesses. Point being: even the thick bouncers know don't do stuff in front of witnesses. So I highly doubt they lifted her without any assessment or due course with witnesses present, even the biggest rookie would know that's strongly risking their job, I doubt it to the point that I'm certain it didn't happen.

Now let's get onto you: you were admittedly drunk too. If you tried to make a statement to the Gardaí, they wouldn't legally be allowed take it as you wouldn't be credible or compos mentis enough to recall your experience. But you don't seem to be giving this statement based off what you yourself witnessed, so now we've got a Chinese whispers element to it. Yet despite the fact that Gardaí wouldn't even be able to accept your account and you don't claim to have witnessed it all unfold, you state it with full confidence as 100% fact. That's a crazy leap of confidence huh? Almost unbelievably so.

So down to what I think is actually likely to have happened: the good news is I don't think you made it all up! But that's about all the good news. I think your friend was too drunk (you say yourself she was fine one minute, then not the next, which already raises doubt about the duty of care of the nightclub since even you didn't notice this adjustment being in her company consistently), she gets escorted off the premises by security (almost definitely not carried) and sits on some kegs to regain her bearings (why would security put her on stock that staff may need in moments). Since not one of your group has witnessed this in full, a game of Chinese whispers occurs piecing things together and exaggerating it to validate the outrage that comes with being in a heightened emotional state after consuming so much alcohol. An acceptable story is created by this group of dubious witnesses. They feel more confident in their collective story to the point that one of them, who admits he hasn't even seen most of this happen himself, posts it on boards with 100% certainty that all of this totally happened. You don't even argue that much with those who raise questions about the legitimacy of your story. People decide to take you at face value and discuss the points raised, you rubbish all of said points from credible people that don't have a horse in the race who actually work within the industry, when you yourself do not or appear to have ever done so (else why wouldn't you say so and make your argument stronger?). So people, in this case me, actually take time to point out your story is absolute non-credible ****e to begin with.

TLDR; why are you lying?

My my what a "rant".

If you'll trouble yourself, and review the thread prior to your hysterics about internment, you'll hopefully have noticed its been in the main pleasant enough, a query about whether there is a duty of care in this situations, ideally from someone in the trade. Indeed mindazzler who seemed familiar with the premises and staff, gave a nice, lucid rejection of why my view might be coloured. Indeed, i thanked it as was logical, as I've acknowledged various posts from e.g. Big Bag o Chips, FTA69 et al. I initiated the thread to solicit such views, and they're appreciated. Im not looking for people to agree with me, just not be a dick. Most of us are managing it. Maybe I overreacted to your hysterical "Miranda" post. I apologise for any offence.

But anyway, back to your latest diatribe, notwithstanding I may have provoked it- my bad), but I've a feeling you haven't read the entire thread. There's elements there that have been clarified by me and others. Review the thread, if you still have questions, I'd be happy to clarify. at the outside I said this isnt a bouncer bashing thread. Its a tough job, I wouldnt fancy it.


So you say I'm lying? But also "good news is i didnt make it up". Which is it?
Lets recap for the cheap seats. The only thing I didn't see was how much she had to drink. I've acknowledged this several time. (and from discussions today, it seems she didn't have a whole lot, stayed on pints didnt have shots).

The removal and deposition outside, I and several of us saw it. From door staff clearing us out of the way, to them leaving her on the kegs. You seem to have difficulty with the veracity of my story, as its unlikely we're ever going to want to be friends, so I couldn't really give a sh1t. But you might desist from calling me a "liar". Unless you work there, and are prepared to invite me in to review CCTV to prove that I'm not correct in my recollections. Indeed I'd be happy to take you up on the offer, and if all is not as I recall, be happy to set the record straight. The removal is as I recall, and as discussed today at work, I am not alone in my recollections.

TL:DR at least one of us was there. Not sure if you were.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Verpiss dich wrote: »

Reading the above how can the VFI stare that we are safer drinking in one of their establishments?
And even decent people working on the door after a while this kind of thing will make them mean and aggressive.

Any family or friends I have enjoyed a drink with we have NEVER had a row or any incidents of any kind related to drink.

I have Never been violent ever but yet I always feel uneasy around door staff.

What is your thinking of the VFI lobbying the government to put a massive tariff on off licence sales?

Ok this is only my opinion but based on personal experience. Drinking at home is dangerous compared to drinking in a bar/club where you have someone looking out for your welfare.. Drinking at home (I'm enjoying one right now in fact) is cool, its chilling but in the wrong setting its also frought with danger ~ bars and clubs don't have kitchen draws full of knives (for example).. There is rarely any supervision, there are more people killed at house parties than in bars and clubs.

I've never been involved in violence outside of the door, and I always feel uneasy around drunks, go figure.

As for your assertion that even decent people working in this environment will be "made mean and aggressive", seriously that's just rubbish, and a claim you could never hope to back up.

I've no opinion on the VFI

Right, watching Cardboard Gangsters and enjoying a Lidl's bottle of cheap as vodka 'cause I'm off work tomorrow and ain't gonna spend the rest of my night in the AH cesspit

leggo

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

My my what a "rant".

If you'll trouble yourself, and review the thread prior to your hysterics about internment, you'll hopefully have noticed its been in the main pleasant enough, a query about whether there is a duty of care in this situations, ideally from someone in the trade. Indeed mindazzler who seemed familiar with the premises and staff, gave a nice, lucid rejection of why my view might be coloured. Indeed, i thanked it as was logical, as I've acknowledged various posts from e.g. Big Bag o Chips, FTA69 et al. I initiated the thread to solicit such views, and they're appreciated. Im not looking for people to agree with me, just not be a dick. Most of us are managing it. Maybe I overreacted to your hysterical "Miranda" post. I apologise for any offence.

But anyway, back to your latest diatribe, notwithstanding I may have provoked it- my bad), but I've a feeling you haven't read the entire thread. There's elements there that have been clarified by me and others. Review the thread, if you still have questions, I'd be happy to clarify. at the outside I said this isnt a bouncer bashing thread. Its a tough job, I wouldnt fancy it.


So you say I'm lying? But also "good news is i didnt make it up". Which is it?
Lets recap for the cheap seats. The only thing I didn't see was how much she had to drink. I've acknowledged this several time. (and from discussions today, it seems she didn't have a whole lot, stayed on pints didnt have shots).

The removal and deposition outside, I and several of us saw it. From door staff clearing us out of the way, to them leaving her on the kegs. You seem to have difficulty with the veracity of my story, as its unlikely we're ever going to want to be friends, so I couldn't really give a sh1t. But you might desist from calling me a "liar". Unless you work there, and are prepared to invite me in to review CCTV to prove that I'm not correct in my recollections. Indeed I'd be happy to take you up on the offer, and if all is not as I recall, be happy to set the record straight. The removal is as I recall, and as discussed today at work, I am not alone in my recollections.

TL:DR at least one of us was there. Not sure if you were.

I get that you're looking to undermine me by using words like 'hysterical' and acting like you 'provoked' me, and deflect from the argument by bolding parts then ignoring the chunk in the middle that married the two of them together...but genuinely I'm having a laugh doing this. I love catching people out in a lie. And I'm not from Cork so I don't know or care about the place you're talking about, nor you or your friend, so even your conspiracy theory about why I'm so 'upset' doesn't add up. Another story you've concocted.

Like when someone is telling the truth, they don't need to undermine, deflect, add supplementary info that conveniently suits their argument as the discussion goes on or make grand theories around other people's motivations. You're just BSing and it's gas. Keep going like, I'm enjoying this!

end of the road

leggo wrote: »

I get that you're looking to undermine me by using words like 'hysterical' and acting like you 'provoked' me, and deflect from the argument by bolding parts then ignoring the chunk in the middle that married the two of them together...but genuinely I'm having a laugh doing this. I love catching people out in a lie. And I'm not from Cork so I don't know or care about the place you're talking about, nor you or your friend, so even your conspiracy theory about why I'm so 'upset' doesn't add up. Another story you've concocted.

Like when someone is telling the truth, they don't need to undermine, deflect, add supplementary info that conveniently suits their argument as the discussion goes on or make grand theories around other people's motivations. You're just BSing and it's gas. Keep going like, I'm enjoying this!

you didn't catch him out on anything. he doesn't need to undermine you as you are doing that all by yourself by failing to disprove his story.
honestly, you need to step back and relax. it's only a thread on an internet forum, and as you said you aren't from cork, and don't care about the place involved or the op or his friend.

leggo

end of the road wrote: »

you didn't catch him out on anything. he doesn't need to undermine you as you are doing that all by yourself by failing to disprove his story.
honestly, you need to step back and relax. it's only a thread on an internet forum, and as you said you aren't from cork, and don't care about the place involved or the op or his friend.

You still aren't getting your head around the concepts of 'proof' or 'facts'. Do you believe in ghosts? Probably not right? So if I asked you to prove that ghosts don't exist, how would you go about doing so? Remember when I explained about not being able to prove a negative? The burden of proof? Or were you too angry about the price of pints and having a go at Vitners (for real, you're like a dithering auld wan on Joe Duffy who's determined to have a rant but not quite grasping what everyone else is talking about) that you just glossed over all that? Maybe it's yourself who needs to take a beat to understand the discussion we're all having about this lad's mate and her fake experience with some bouncers. :pac:

Anyway Roger, your friend was murdered by these lads, sure sure go on go on...

minidazzler

Yamileth Sticky Romance wrote: »

I often joke that there's a book in me, and if someone skilled was to work on it I bet they'd get a a half decent one too. Twenty five years on Dublin doors gives you a few yarns to tell.

lt;dr ~ I was a bouncer for 25 yrs blah blah blah

Just t say, as someone who has met Yamileth Sticky Romance in real life and now works in the industry..... I'd hire him in less than a heartbeat. He's a damn gent but christ he has the look of an intimidating bast@rd if he wants to. It's been nearly 4 years since I met him and yet his charm hasn't worn off.

Meathead bouncer might be a trope some go by, this man is not.

That all said, as much as I understand the OP's POV... I feel they got the situation wrong and read it completely wrong...

Mak... want to work a door in Cork?

end of the road

leggo wrote: »

Maybe it's yourself who needs to take a beat to understand the discussion we're all having about this lad's mate and her fake experience with some bouncers.

the fake experience that you were unable to prove to be fake?

Stonedpilot

leggo wrote: »

You still aren't getting your head around the concepts of 'proof' or 'facts'. Do you believe in ghosts? Probably not right? So if I asked you to prove that ghosts don't exist, how would you go about doing so? Remember when I explained about not being able to prove a negative? The burden of proof? Or were you too angry about the price of pints and having a go at Vitners (for real, you're like a dithering auld wan on Joe Duffy who's determined to have a rant but not quite grasping what everyone else is talking about) that you just glossed over all that? Maybe it's yourself who needs to take a beat to understand the discussion we're all having about this lad's mate and her fake experience with some bouncers. :pac:

Anyway Roger, your friend was murdered by these lads, sure sure go on go on...

Of course you can disprove a negative. You can prove there's Not a elephant in the room with you. Theres not a boeing plane parked on Grafton St etc. Thats a fallacy that statement.

Lets say he made it up as you suggest. So what?.
Just an online forum half the ,"real" stories have the bolex embellished out of them here.

Ever do a video interview of your bouncing days?. Know folk could help make a well edited short.

FTA69

minidazzler wrote: »

Just t say, as someone who has met Makikomi in real life and now works in the industry..... I'd hire him in less than a heartbeat. He's a damn gent but christ he has the look of an intimidating bast@rd if he wants to. It's been nearly 4 years since I met him and yet his charm hasn't worn off.

Meathead bouncer might be a trope some go by, this man is not.

That all said, as much as I understand the OP's POV... I feel they got the situation wrong and read it completely wrong...

Mak... want to work a door in Cork?

No Dubs allowed on Cork doors, it'll look shocking if it seems we'd to send to the capital for fellas.

arybvtcw0eolkf

minidazzler wrote: »

Just t say, as someone who has met Makikomi in real life and now works in the industry..... I'd hire him in less than a heartbeat. He's a damn gent but christ he has the look of an intimidating bast@rd if he wants to. It's been nearly 4 years since I met him and yet his charm hasn't worn off.

Meathead bouncer might be a trope some go by, this man is not.

That all said, as much as I understand the OP's POV... I feel they got the situation wrong and read it completely wrong...

Mak... want to work a door in Cork?

Damn, thanks for that

Hopefully I'll never do a door again. I'm 52 years old in March and I've got enough battle scars thank you very much lol.

I'm enjoying life away from the doors and intend to concentrate on a much more simple life.

My son hated me doing it, and only told me recently that he had a genuine fear for my life.

I do miss the lads I worked with in the last place (where you met me). We had three Judo black belts (including me), and a high level Muay Thai & BJJ fighter so we worked, trained and socialized together, we were very tight. Very mature and treated everyone without exception with respect & dignity.

I know not all doors are like that, but we'd a great door staff and I loved working there. Fook, I'm a biker and love rock/metal so working with that crowd was a busmans holiday for me.

People wondering where I worked, sure its gone tits up now and I'm away from it ~ it was The Gypsy Rose on Aston Quay, anyone here who's been in over the seven years it was open would have met me as head doorman, there

Right, that's that. Thanks for the compliment, much appreciated. You're a gent yourself (for a Corkman )

leggo

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Of course you can disprove a negative. You can prove there's Not a elephant in the room with you. Theres not a boeing plane parked on Grafton St etc. Thats a fallacy that statement.

Lets say he made it up as you suggest. So what?.
Just an online forum half the ,"real" stories have the bolex embellished out of them here.

Ever do a video interview of your bouncing days?. Know folk could help make a well edited short.

No it's a fallacy to call to prove that something didn't happen when I said that I didn't believe him and pointed out massive plot holes in his story. They know I can't prove it, he's being asked to fill in blanks and can't do so so is throwing the question back at me, but it's not my job to prove his story isn't true, I'm not the one making defamatory claims about an identifiable business. If he was asked to do a deposition if the club/bouncers decided to make a claim against him (which they legally could now he's given enough info for others to figure out where it is) and he told the solicitor to prove he was lying, he'd get laughed out of the room. You make the claims, you have to prove it. They don't say "show me pics of me NOT riding this hot girl or GTFO" do they? :pac:

And normally I wouldn't care and would let people lie ranting about police, bouncers, travelers, the usual tropes...to try get easy thanks if it made them happy, but he's got smart with everyone who's disagreed with him so this time let's add some logic to proceeedings.

Stonedpilot

leggo wrote: »

No it's a fallacy to call to prove that something didn't happen when I said that I didn't believe him and pointed out massive plot holes in his story. They know I can't prove it, he's being asked to fill in blanks and can't do so so is throwing the question back at me, but it's not my job to prove his story isn't true, I'm not the one making defamatory claims about an identifiable business. If he was asked to do a deposition if the club/bouncers decided to make a claim against him (which they legally could now he's given enough info for others to figure out where it is) and he told the solicitor to prove he was lying, he'd get laughed out of the room. You make the claims, you have to prove it. They don't say "show me pics of me NOT riding this hot girl or GTFO" do they? :pac:

And normally I wouldn't care and would let people lie ranting about police, bouncers, travelers, the usual tropes...to try get easy thanks if it made them happy, but he's got smart with everyone who's disagreed with him so this time let's add some logic to proceeedings.

Fair enough. Doubt the bar in question will sue him based on a story from boards though.
Doubt hes gonna furnish proof on boards either.


If he was lying he'd ham it up a bit. Say the bouncers gave her a few slaps and elbows in a dark corner or something.

Walked out and placed seated on kegs meh hes hardly saying they beat her up.

leggo

It's not relevant whether they'll sue him (though plenty of legal issues have emanated from boards, I've been the complainant for one myself sure) or whether he could've told a better lie (maybe he's just not very creative?), my point is that it's a massively exaggerated story to suit a point he's looking to make and it doesn't stand up to the slightest bit of scrutiny. So if he's going to get smart with everyone who doesn't agree with him, then maybe he should've thought of a better BS story or moderated his tone and people who can read into his story wouldn't be so quick to call him out.

TheChizler

Can we not just pretend it's a hypothetical? Doesn't matter who doesn't believe who then.