taxis as public transport

jimmycrackcorm

I used to think that taxis using the bus lane was a bad thing particularly for bus users. I used to think that it was unfair that I driving couldn't use the bus lane, yet my neighbour getting a taxi could do.

But then I considered that there is an important use case for taxis and j is lanes. Without this facility there is no opportunity for people (including normally car drivers) to get to a required destination as quickly as possible.

magicbastarder

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

But then I considered that there is an important use case for taxis and j is lanes. Without this facility there is no opportunity for people (including normally car drivers) to get to a required destination as quickly as possible.

i don't follow your logic? well, you've not stated a reason for your conclusion.

iamtony

magicbastarder wrote: »

i don't follow your logic? well, you've not stated a reason for your conclusion.

I think what he is saying is that, Taxis as part of the public transport network enable people to avail of the fastest method of getting from a to b when the need arises. And not all that much more expensive if you value your Time.
I was looking to get the luas from parnell street to the green today and it was 7.40 return for me and the missus.

magicbastarder

he included car drivers in that comment though.

Losty Dublin

IE 222 wrote: »

A very small portion of each fare they receive goes towards this.

All of it goes to the NTA insofar as the fees are collected by the NTA in respect of whatever licences, fines, fees etc that they charge PSV operators. If you can show us that the NTA pass this money on then please do but based on the accuracy or lack on on your earlier posts in this thread I won't be holding my breath

iamtony

magicbastarder wrote: »

he included car drivers in that comment though.

Yeah he was making a point that it's faster by taxi than by normal car journeys.

magicbastarder

ah; a premium service for people willing to pay for it. not sure i agree or like the idea.

regarding the luas charges from parnell to the green - obviously the luas is not operating the €1 city centre zone price?

iamtony

magicbastarder wrote: »

ah; a premium service for people willing to pay for it. not sure i agree or like the idea.

regarding the luas charges from parnell to the green - obviously the luas is not operating the €1 city centre zone price?

Unless I did something wrong I just went to the screen and typed in the start and end destination and it said 3.70 return each.
Yes taxis are a premium service and although you might not like the idea, many of your fellow citizens do and pick that form of transport over all others, when the need arises or no other options are available. Which is pretty often to be fair considering the mass transit options only operate for 2 thirds of the day for the most part.

Losty Dublin

magicbastarder wrote: »

ah; a premium service for people willing to pay for it. not sure i agree or like the idea.

regarding the luas charges from parnell to the green - obviously the luas is not operating the €1 city centre zone price?

It may be for Leapcard users only.

iamtony

magicbastarder wrote: »

ah; a premium service for people willing to pay for it. not sure i agree or like the idea.

regarding the luas charges from parnell to the green - obviously the luas is not operating the €1 city centre zone price?

honestly I would of jumped r at a 1 euro fare, we ended up walking to brown Thomas.

MJohnston

For me, I'd like to see a start made where certain bus lanes are designated as 100% bus (and tram I suppose if that needs to be indicated) only, but not all of them. Some examples would be the critical CC public transport bottleneck (College Green, Westmoreland St, O'Connell Bridge, Rosie Hackett Bridge), the N1, N4, and N11 QBCs, and of course any future BRT route.

By the way, these new strict bus lanes would be illegal for cyclists as well as taxis (and I am recommending this as a frequent cyclist) and obviously any private vehicles. They'd be active 24/7 and monitored with ANPR cameras along the entire route. Existing "Bus" lanes would be redesignated as Public Service Vehicle lanes, and would retain the existing rules for taxis and everyone else.

iamtony

MJohnston wrote: »

For me, I'd like to see a start made where certain bus lanes are designated as 100% bus (and tram I suppose if that needs to be indicated) only, but not all of them. Some examples would be the critical CC public transport bottleneck (College Green, Westmoreland St, O'Connell Bridge, Rosie Hackett Bridge), the N1, N4, and N11 QBCs, and of course any future BRT route.

By the way, these new strict bus lanes would be illegal for cyclists as well as taxis (and I am recommending this as a frequent cyclist) and obviously any private vehicles. They'd be active 24/7 and monitored with ANPR cameras along the entire route. Existing "Bus" lanes would be redesignated as Public Service Vehicle lanes, and would retain the existing rules for taxis and everyone else.

If fairness all Contraflow bus lanes are bus only, no taxis allowed I mean I dont know about bikes. I like your idea of calling the bus lanes public service vehicle lanes!
College green is under observation at the moment and I'm fairly certain they will find taxis aren't causing too much bother around the area. It was only the first monday they had problems but since then it's fine. Once they stopped private cars turning right over O'Connell Bridge, college green has moved pretty well in fairness.

MJohnston

iamtony wrote: »

If fairness all Contraflow bus lanes are bus only, no taxis allowed I mean I dont know about bikes. I like your idea of calling the bus lanes public service vehicle lanes!
College green is under observation at the moment and I'm fairly certain they will find taxis aren't causing too much bother around the area. It was only the first monday they had problems but since then it's fine. Once they stopped private cars turning right over O'Connell Bridge, college green has moved pretty well in fairness.

The thing with College Green is there are numerous alternate routes to drop taxi passengers in the area that don't involve going through College Green itself. Taxis don't need access to that specific area, imo.

iamtony

MJohnston wrote: »

The thing with College Green is there are numerous alternate routes to drop taxi passengers in the area that don't involve going through College Green itself. Taxis don't need access to that specific area, imo.

Of course there are alternatives but it's the epicentre of the city and the fastest route to many businesses and hotels that rely on our services on a daisy basis.
I honestly expected them to ban taxis around college green. And it's still a possibility but it's not even a big problem at the moment. Very little delay in the area at all now. It's been a nightmare for a long time but since the luas roadworks have finished and private cars are banned it's pretty free flowing to be honest, and I'd use the route a couple of times a day.

jimmycrackcorm

magicbastarder wrote:

i don't follow your logic? well, you've not stated a reason for your conclusion.

magicbastarder wrote:

he included car drivers in that comment though.

My point is any the level of equality of two people using cars but one had the privilege of using the bus lane.

MJohnston

iamtony wrote: »

Of course there are alternatives but it's the epicentre of the city and the fastest route to many businesses and hotels that rely on our services on a daisy basis.

That's secondary now to the fact that it's the most critical bottleneck in the entire public transport network of the city. Taxis are not a priority compared to that. Perhaps once BusConnects has re-arranged the bus network, it might be the case that College Green doesn't become as critical for buses, and a ban on taxis could be revisited. Until then, I think it absolutely needs to happen asap. Not for trams, but for buses.

cython

iamtony wrote: »

If fairness all Contraflow bus lanes are bus only, no taxis allowed I mean I dont know about bikes. I like your idea of calling the bus lanes public service vehicle lanes!
College green is under observation at the moment and I'm fairly certain they will find taxis aren't causing too much bother around the area. It was only the first monday they had problems but since then it's fine. Once they stopped private cars turning right over O'Connell Bridge, college green has moved pretty well in fairness.

Bikes are permitted since 2012 (my emphasis):

SI 332/2012 wrote:

Bus Lanes

32. (1)(a) A bus lane shall be indicated by means of traffic sign number RUS 028 or traffic sign number RUS 029 used in association with traffic sign number RRM 024.

(b) A contra-flow bus lane shall be indicated by means of traffic sign number RUS 030 used in association with traffic sign number RRM 024.

(2) A person shall not enter a bus lane with a vehicle other than a large public service vehicle or a pedal cycle during the period of operation of the bus lane indicated on an information plate.

(3) A person shall not enter a contra-flow bus lane with a vehicle other than a large public service vehicle or a pedal cycle.

AlanG

Where I work about 30% of the staff need to get taxis around town each day, mass transit is not an option due to the nature of the work and the loads to be carried. That's almost 100 people who would need to have their cars in with them if they didn't get taxis. As it is not always the same 30% of staff there would be around 150 private journeys into town at peak time to have those cars available. Taxis negate the need for that. I would say that typically illustrates why taxis should get some priority over those private cars.

magicbastarder

the problem is the lowest common denominator argument there - *everyone* wants to get around town as quickly as possible, and pouring lots of single occupancy taxis into bus lanes may make things quicker for the staff in your place, but what's the overall effect on the city?

if we're down to 'i'm paying to use a taxi so paying to use the bus lane', why aren't we looking at cutting the middle section out and simply charge to use a bus lane?

how common is it in europe that taxis are allowed use bus lanes? IIRC, it was first allowed in dublin 20 or 30 years ago (when there were *far* fewer taxis (admittedly, far fewer cars in general)), and they seem to be moving to adopt it in belfast, going by this article from may:
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/belfast-city-council-votes-in-favour-of-taxis-in-bus-lanes-35701428.html

MJohnston

AlanG wrote: »

Where I work about 30% of the staff need to get taxis around town each day, mass transit is not an option due to the nature of the work and the loads to be carried. That's almost 100 people who would need to have their cars in with them if they didn't get taxis. As it is not always the same 30% of staff there would be around 150 private journeys into town at peak time to have those cars available. Taxis negate the need for that. I would say that typically illustrates why taxis should get some priority over those private cars.

So if you would have had 150 private journeys in cars, those are just being transferred to 150 journeys in taxis instead?

El Tarangu

AlanG wrote: »

I would say that typically illustrates why taxis should get some priority over those private cars.

By the same logic, a lorry driver who took a bus into work before picking up his vehicle should be allowed to use the bus lanes as he makes his rounds.

iamtony

MJohnston wrote: »

So if you would have had 150 private journeys in cars, those are just being transferred to 150 journeys in taxis instead?

Plus travelling to and from work in their car if they needed to use it during the day they have to bring it with them or they can get bus or train to work. Taxi during the day and bus or train home.

iamtony

El Tarangu wrote: »

By the same logic, a lorry driver who took a bus into work before picking up his vehicle should be allowed to use the bus lanes as he makes his rounds.

No because a lorry isn't a public service vehicle moving members of the public around the city efficiently.

AlekSmart

cython wrote: »

Bikes are permitted since 2012 (my emphasis):

The rather incredible,and mystery shrouded folly-up to all that good S.I.332/2012 stuff is covered in this article...

http://irishcycle.com/2017/11/21/cyclists-dont-have-to-use-cycle-lanes-ross-to-clear-confusion/

The law requiring people cycling to use cycle tracks — the legal name for most types of cycle lanes and cycle paths — was revoked by Leo Varadkar when he was transport minister in 2012.

But, in 2015, the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) came to the view that the revocation never happened because of an error in the way the legislation was written. The interpretation by the DPP was passed onto the Department of Transport by the Garda National Roads Policing Bureau — the release of this advice is currently subject to an on-going appeal lodged recently with the Commissioner for Environmental Information.

This website understands the view that the legislation was flawed was based on a missing comma, but different legal experts consulted by cycling campaigners disagreed with the view that this invalidated the intent of the law.

So....is it the case that we are,perhaps,unsuited to crafting laws n stuff for ourselves ?

Something,however stinks to high-heaven in relation to the amount of running-for-cover amongst the responsible agencies in this matter....

The Road Safety Authority has refused to release details of the costs of the research, saying it was commissioned by the Department of Transport. The department responded by stating that it has no details of the cost of the research.

It is far more appropriate to an episode of Fawlty Towers,than real world Ireland,yet even now in late 2017,there has been NO definitive answer as to what IS the current situation regarding Cycle Access to Contra-Flow Bus Lanes.

The outcome ?

Most likely a few promotions....:rolleyes:

MJohnston

iamtony wrote: »

Plus travelling to and from work in their car if they needed to use it during the day they have to bring it with them or they can get bus or train to work. Taxi during the day and bus or train home.

But it makes no difference - either way they're an individual traveling on their own in a single vehicle. Just because someone else is driving them when it is a taxi makes absolutely zero difference to the account of traffic on the roads. The only benefit that taxis have to society over cars is that they don't take up parking spaces. You can't even argue that taxis reduce car purchasing because most users will still have a car at home.

LionelNashe

mdebets wrote: »

You can read a good explanation as to why taxis are important here with some studies done in the US.

The above post gives a good account that hadn't occurred to me before of why taxis should be considered 'public transport', and a good thing. Using a taxi occasionally will mean that you won't necessarily need to own a car, but on the other hand the cost of taxi journeys will mean that their use is self-limiting for most people; they're for when you're in a hurry, or when other transport is unavailable, and you'll often use a bus or train for the return journey, and for your other journeys during the week.

Why does any public transport get to use bus lanes? In the case of buses, because buses carry more people than cars, which makes buses a better use of the road space than cars. In the case of buses and taxis, to incentivise people to leave their cars at home and buses or taxis instead.

Also, because taxi drivers couldn't make a living if they spent their lives sitting in traffic, and then the public would be the losers.

An argument against taxis in bus lanes might be that they are slowing down buses to an unacceptable degree and that this would outweigh the public benefit from taxis using the lanes. I haven't noticed that because I don't use buses or taxis these days. People will have their own opinions, but confirmation bias will cause them to see the problem as worse than it is. It would be interesting to see some expert opinion, or traffic modelling, or cctv footage even.

iamtony

MJohnston wrote: »

But it makes no difference - either way they're an individual traveling on their own in a single vehicle. Just because someone else is driving them when it is a taxi makes absolutely zero difference to the account of traffic on the roads. The only benefit that taxis have to society over cars is that they don't take up parking spaces. You can't even argue that taxis reduce car purchasing because most users will still have a car at home.

I give up honestly:(

mdebets

MJohnston wrote: »

But it makes no difference - either way they're an individual traveling on their own in a single vehicle. Just because someone else is driving them when it is a taxi makes absolutely zero difference to the account of traffic on the roads. The only benefit that taxis have to society over cars is that they don't take up parking spaces. You can't even argue that taxis reduce car purchasing because most users will still have a car at home.

But that is only true if you look at taxis as a stand alone mode of transport, but they aren't. Taxis are needed, to fill in the gaps that the other public transport can't, like transporting people with heavy shopping or at times late at night, when the other public transport systems have already shut down or reduced its times.
To be able to live without a car, you need taxis for these trips, that you can't take on a bus or tram for whatever reason. If taxis weren't there you would need your own car for these trips. And once you have a car, youare much more likely to use it more often, even if you could use public transport, because you paid for it already and don't want to pay a second time for a trip. Without taxis or taxis not being allowed to use bus lanes, you would have more cars, more car trips and more conjested roads.

MJohnston

mdebets wrote: »

But that is only true if you look at taxis as a stand alone mode of transport, but they aren't. Taxis are needed, to fill in the gaps that the other public transport can't, like transporting people with heavy shopping or at times late at night, when the other public transport systems have already shut down or reduced its times.
To be able to live without a car, you need taxis for these trips, that you can't take on a bus or tram for whatever reason. If taxis weren't there you would need your own car for these trips. And once you have a car, youare much more likely to use it more often, even if you could use public transport, because you paid for it already and don't want to pay a second time for a trip. Without taxis or taxis not being allowed to use bus lanes, you would have more cars, more car trips and more conjested roads.

This is a decent argument for taxis in general and for them to be able to use some bus lanes off peak, but it doesn't defend the idea that taxis should not be able to use critical bus lanes during peak traffic hours. Nobody is doing heavy shopping at those times, and these are not the 'late at night' hours you're referring to.

I still maintain it's necessary to ban taxis from particular bus lanes during peak hours, and nothing in this thread has convinced me otherwise.

magicbastarder

AlanG wrote: »

Where I work about 30% of the staff need to get taxis around town each day

just out of curiosity - have they not thought of getting pool cars?
the place i work (which has about 1,500 people on the main site) doesn't have *nearly* that percentage of people needing cars on a daily basis, but if i needed a pool car for work purposes (never have needed one) i could book a car out.