taxis as public transport

magicbastarder

AlekSmart wrote: »

This is a situation which will eventually get a thread of it's own I feel.

As I posted earlier in thread,the persistent attempts to portray Taxi's as mainstream Public Transport has brought us to this woebegone scenario.

lifted from the luas thread.

may as well nail my colours to the mast - yes, taxis may provide an option to people who don't have/cant afford cars, some of the benefits of car ownership - but why should we assume those benefits should be afforded greater rights than normal private transport?

e.g. i have a car sitting in the driveway. i could choose to drive through the city centre, or get a taxi. there's no considerable benefit that a taxi provides over me driving - it's still one car ferrying one person across the city - but somehow one person being brought across the city in a car is now considered 'public transport'.

i was only once in the city in the evening since the cross-city luas started, but the experience consistently prior to that, when getting a dublin bus after 10pm, has been that the streets are choked with taxis plying for trade.

ELM327

magicbastarder wrote: »

lifted from the luas thread.

may as well nail my colours to the mast - yes, taxis may provide an option to people who don't have/cant afford cars, some of the benefits of car ownership - but why should we assume those benefits should be afforded greater rights than normal private transport?

e.g. i have a car sitting in the driveway. i could choose to drive through the city centre, or get a taxi. there's no considerable benefit that a taxi provides over me driving - it's still one car ferrying one person across the city - but somehow one person being brought across the city in a car is now considered 'public transport'.

i was only once in the city in the evening since the cross-city luas started, but the experience consistently when getting a dublin bus after 10pm has been that the streets are choked with taxis plying for trade.

But that one taxi can replace 10 journeys by indiviuals.
That's 10 private cars that need to be driven and parked somewhere, then driven home again.

magicbastarder

granted - so if i'm heading to a friend's house, or anywhere else that has private parking, that's not creating any extra burden on public parking. you still have the same number of car journeys being made.

listermint

magicbastarder wrote: »

granted - so if i'm heading to a friend's house, or anywhere else that has private parking, that's not creating any extra burden on public parking. you still have the same number of car journeys being made.

Seems you are looking for scenarios where they dont have the same number of car journeys, but the same can be shown that they do.

i.e impasse.

Long and short of it they provide a necessary public service where out joint up transport thinking is not.

Its gas now that we've 1 single joint up cross city luas line and suddenly taxis are not required.


Long way to go my friend.

magicbastarder

'suddenly'?
there's nothing new about my argument, and i'm clearly not calling for all taxis to be piled up and burned.

i just don't see why they should be allowed use bus lanes.

listermint

magicbastarder wrote: »

'suddenly'?
there's nothing new about my argument, and i'm clearly not calling for all taxis to be piled up and burned.

i just don't see why they should be allowed use bus lanes.

Because they can carry more people more efficiently than you can in your car.

Thats why. The argument falls on its knees tbh.

magicbastarder

lets pretend i'm stupid.
last weekend i drove from my house in glasnevin to visit friends in blackrock. what is it about a taxi ride which would have made it more efficient than me driving?

Sierra Oscar

Putting the enforcement issue aside, are taxis allowed use bus lanes when they don't have any passengers?

magicbastarder

there are a couple of caveats, but the answer in practical terms is a solid yes.

listermint

magicbastarder wrote: »

lets pretend i'm stupid.
last weekend i drove from my house in glasnevin to visit friends in blackrock. what is it about a taxi ride which would have made it more efficient than me driving?

You are ignoring the valid reason from a poster above and putting your own scenario into place for what end i dont know.

Youve already acknowledged that posters example as being fair and correct.

magicbastarder

what i got from that is that taxis should be allowed use bus lanes because of pressure on parking in the city centre. i'm trying to understand the logical link leading from one to the other.

devnull

magicbastarder wrote: »

lets pretend i'm stupid.
last weekend i drove from my house in glasnevin to visit friends in blackrock. what is it about a taxi ride which would have made it more efficient than me driving?

It would create extra traffic as the taxi driver needs to drive from wherever they are to your place to pick you up, a journey that wouldn't be necessary if you drove your own car.

Sierra Oscar

magicbastarder wrote: »

there are a couple of caveats, but the answer in practical terms is a solid yes.

It's infuriating to see empty taxis blocking up the entire College Green arterial route during rush hour. Whatever about occupied taxis providing public transport, empty ones stuck in traffic aren't much use.

srsly78

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Putting the enforcement issue aside, are taxis allowed use bus lanes when they don't have any passengers?

The caveat is only when they are on a job. But in practical terms even if they are empty they will say 'on my way to a pickup'.

listermint

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

It's infuriating to see empty taxis blocking up the entire College Green arterial route during rush hour. Whatever about occupied taxis providing public transport, empty ones stuck in traffic aren't much use.

Very Fair point, but how do you mitigate that from someone who is en route to pick up a fair.

Not easily, if at all.

DesperateDan

But you are not driving around the city collecting people on the streets and depositing them elsewhere en masse.

You can't honestly think 10 single journeys in 10 cars is completely comparable to 1 taxi doing 10 staggered journeys?

Sierra Oscar

listermint wrote: »

Very Fair point, but how do you mitigate that from someone who is en route to pick up a fair.

Not easily, if at all.

I'm not sure what law / regulation covers this specific issue, but it could be changed to specifically say that the passenger has to be in the taxi to allow it use College Green. Let taxi drivers find an alternative route when going to pickup a fare. They can advise passengers how long it will take them to arrive and behaviour will just have to change all round with people realising they need to allow more time between booking and pickup.

Of course the easier option is to just ban taxis from College Green entirely, at least during rush hour.

marno21

Let it be that taxis can use College Green if they have a fare to drop off or pick up within that area.

Empty taxis routing through there is of no benefit to anyone except the drivers. There are plenty of alternative routes

Sierra Oscar

So it begins ...

Top-end hotels object to taxi ban in College Green plaza plan

Six of Dublin’s best-known luxury hotels, including the Merrion, Shelbourne and Westbury, have appealed to An Bord Pleanála against plans to ban taxis from the proposed new civic plaza at College Green.

Constant Curiosity

ELM327 wrote: »

But that one taxi can replace 10 journeys by indiviuals.
That's 10 private cars that need to be driven and parked somewhere, then driven home again.

WHAT?!
why can't you do same as one taxi with 10 journeys, and you in your car with 10 stops? am i missing something

magicbastarder

DesperateDan wrote: »

But you are not driving around the city collecting people on the streets and depositing them elsewhere en masse.

You can't honestly think 10 single journeys in 10 cars is completely comparable to 1 taxi doing 10 staggered journeys?

in terms of road miles travelled? well, it's trivial. in the example above, me getting from my house to my friend's house involves an 18km drive. it would be either the same length or longer than that in a taxi. except the taxi driver - unless s/he gets lucky and is picking other passengers up where they are doing dropoffs - will be driving around on their own between fares.

mdebets

You can read a good explanation as to why taxis are important here with some studies done in the US.

AlekSmart

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Putting the enforcement issue aside, are taxis allowed use bus lanes when they don't have any passengers?

The relevant wording is "In the course of business".....many Taxidrivers will tell you that they are like Gardai...never off duty

The core of the issue is not the banning of Taxis,but imposing,an obviously badly needed,element of regulation upon their free access to area's of the City Centre where their presence is NOW acting against the interests of the Greater Public Transport Using Public.

Most late-night users of both Bus and Luas in the City Centre area,will be well versed in the anarchy the Taxi Driving fraternity impose upon their non-customers,due in the main to what appears to be an orchestrated campaign to ignore large segments of both the Road Traffic Acts,and the SPSV regulations.

It should NOT be about having to beg an Asst Garda Commissioner for some resources to impose order on the sector,it should be about having a sector whose members had a degree of respect for those regulations in the first place.

ELM327

antongavrikov wrote: »

WHAT?!
why can't you do same as one taxi with 10 journeys, and you in your car with 10 stops? am i missing something

Where do you park the other 9 cars?
And if you repeat this on a larger scale of 1000 taxis to 10000 private journeys, where do you store the 10000 private vehicles? You see why taxis work?

magicbastarder

is that it so? taxis work because of parking?

ELM327

magicbastarder wrote: »

is that it so? taxis work because of parking?

If that's what you want to believe, I guess?
In the real world however of course not.

ThisRegard

ELM327 wrote: »

Where do you park the other 9 cars?
And if you repeat this on a larger scale of 1000 taxis to 10000 private journeys, where do you store the 10000 private vehicles? You see why taxis work?

Carparks. They're off the roads then instead of taking up road space, either by parking (you know the state of the ranks around the city, both official and unofficial) or driving around aimlessly.

The claim that taxis are more efficient is baseless.

ELM327

ThisRegard wrote: »

Carparks. They're off the roads then instead of taking up road space, either by parking (you know the state of the ranks around the city, both official and unofficial) or driving around aimlessly.

The claim that taxis are more efficient is baseless.

Lets get rid of them for 1 week so as a test.

ThisRegard

Nobody, apart from you, has mentioned anything about getting rid of them.

bigar

The concept of Taxis as Public Transport I will never understand. To me it is private car hire and they should be treated as such. So no use of bus lanes and no taxi stands, call out only. A lot taxi journeys are not even that far so they can be easily walked or cycled.

ELM327

ThisRegard wrote: »

Nobody, apart from you, has mentioned anything about getting rid of them.

But they are obviously so inefficient going by the detractors on this thread.
Why not get rid altogether?

ThisRegard

ELM327 wrote: »

But they are obviously so inefficient going by the detractors on this thread.
Why not get rid altogether?

Can you not distinguish between saying taxis are inefficient and the fact they're a service?

Some bus routes are terribly inefficient, why not get rid of buses altogether?

You have not yet put forward an argument as to what makes a taxi more efficient over private car journeys?

ELM327

ThisRegard wrote: »

Can you not distinguish between saying taxis are inefficient and the fact they're a service?

Some bus routes are terribly inefficient, why not get rid of buses altogether?

You have not yet put forward an argument as to what makes a taxi more efficient over private car journeys?

I've put forward multiple.
You've adjudged them as invalid and therefore disregarded them.
That's your opinion. Like arses we all have opinions.

magicbastarder

ELM327 wrote: »

I've put forward multiple.

no, you're only provided one argument.

ThisRegard

ELM327 wrote: »

I've put forward multiple.

You didn't, just the below, which is basically the same argument, which is not an argument putting a taxi journey over similar a private car journey.

ELM327 wrote: »

But that one taxi can replace 10 journeys by indiviuals.
That's 10 private cars that need to be driven and parked somewhere, then driven home again.

ELM327 wrote: »

Where do you park the other 9 cars?
And if you repeat this on a larger scale of 1000 taxis to 10000 private journeys, where do you store the 10000 private vehicles? You see why taxis work?

ELM327

Ok. If you've disregarded that argument which is perfectly valid then there's no point posting another.
And thus ends my brief foray into the commuting and transport forum.
Enjoy your circle.

magicbastarder

i think you're confusing the concepts of a 'statement' and an 'argument'.

irelandrover

You dont remove the amount of cars on the road, you reduce the amount of space needed for paking.

In order to make driving a taxi more attractive they can use the bus lanes. Otherwise they spend too long sitting in traffic to actually make money.

El Tarangu

irelandrover wrote: »

In order to make driving a taxi more attractive they can use the bus lanes. Otherwise they spend too long sitting in traffic to actually make money.

I can see why this is of benefit to taxi drivers and taxi users. But if bus is stuck in a bus lane behind a load of taxis, most of which is either carrying one passenger or even empty, I'm not sure public transport users are getting much benefit from the existence of the bus lane.

SusieBlue

bigar wrote: »

The concept of Taxis as Public Transport I will never understand. To me it is private car hire and they should be treated as such. So no use of bus lanes and no taxi stands, call out only. A lot taxi journeys are not even that far so they can be easily walked or cycled.

That's a matter of opinion. When I got my cast off and was getting used to hobbling around on my newly healed broken leg, the pain and pressure often lead me to give up walking and get taxi's somewhat short distances because I literally couldn't walk any more. I probably just looked lazy to anyone who didn't know my circumstances.

Other times, when I was in a rush, say, running late for work or a meeting, I got a taxi because I didn't have time to walk and busses/public transport are undependable at the best of times.

You are also forgetting that you are totally spoiled for choice in Dublin with public transport options. You have the luas, the dart, more cycle lanes, and two bus services, not to mention the trains.
Where I am, and for the majority of the country, we just have the bus. The bus I get each morning to work is meant to come every 10 minutes. This morning, I waited 45 minutes in the cold, no bus. I was looking up numbers for a taxi so I wouldn't be late when one eventually pulled up.

The taxi service is very much needed and depended on by a large portion of this country. It is also a source of income for many others. A lot of people would end up left in the lurch if there were no taxi ranks or taxi lanes.

The J Stands for Jay

bigar wrote: »

The concept of Taxis as Public Transport I will never understand. To me it is private car hire and they should be treated as such. So no use of bus lanes and no taxi stands, call out only. A lot taxi journeys are not even that far so they can be easily walked or cycled.

The logic that applies to taxis in bus lanes mean I should be able to drive my Avis rental in the bus lane.

El Tarangu

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Other times, when I was in a rush, say, running late for work or a meeting, I got a taxi because I didn't have time to walk and busses/public transport are undependable at the best of times.

In the case of buses in Dublin city centre, this is often as a direct result of taxis clogging up the bus lanes.

howiya

magicbastarder wrote: »

lifted from the luas thread.

may as well nail my colours to the mast - yes, taxis may provide an option to people who don't have/cant afford cars, some of the benefits of car ownership - but why should we assume those benefits should be afforded greater rights than normal private transport?

e.g. i have a car sitting in the driveway. i could choose to drive through the city centre, or get a taxi. there's no considerable benefit that a taxi provides over me driving - it's still one car ferrying one person across the city - but somehow one person being brought across the city in a car is now considered 'public transport'.

i was only once in the city in the evening since the cross-city luas started, but the experience consistently prior to that, when getting a dublin bus after 10pm, has been that the streets are choked with taxis plying for trade.

I took exception in the luas thread to the post you have quoted in your OP.

The poster works for a public transport company who won't provide services to the public during certain hours of the day. For many people, taxis are the only public transport option.

There are also other posts on this forum that suggest the dublin bus unions will argue against longer operating hours.

One additional benefit of the LCC route is now another part of Dublin has public transport beyond the hours that Dublin Bus will operate. I think the Luas runs until half 12.

While I believe taxis are an essential part of the public transport system, I don't believe they should be allowed operate in a way that impacts on the greater good. I'd stop them using bus lanes and would also remove them from college green.

The time of day at which they form the backbone of the public transport system are low in traffic volume so there should be no requirement for them to use CG or other bus lanes.

Thud

by this logic should GoCar and other car sharing rental cars be allowed use bus lanes?

Constant Curiosity

Unless you go out at night a lot, i'm sure you will agree, that majority of common people rarely use taxis, so they are NOT AN ESSENTIAL part of public transport, public transport is in public, taxi is a private transportation which most of us can't afford, especially with mental pricing like the capital and big cities. Last time i took a cab was 2 years ago from NY night party. Also, i believe taxi drivers should have tougher regulations to follow and a personal attitude test and strict gardai vetting, as the 'test' they do now is an absolute joke. I hate this profession with passion, there is a handful of lads that are genuine, but from personal observation i can assure you, this profession needs a complete overhaul!

AlekSmart

howiya wrote: »

I took exception in the luas thread to the post you have quoted in your OP.

The poster works for a public transport company who won't provide services to the public during certain hours of the day. For many people, taxis are the only public transport option.

There are also other posts on this forum that suggest the dublin bus unions will argue against longer operating hours.

One additional benefit of the LCC route is now another part of Dublin has public transport beyond the hours that Dublin Bus will operate. I think the Luas runs until half 12.

While I believe taxis are an essential part of the public transport system, I don't believe they should be allowed operate in a way that impacts on the greater good. I'd stop them using bus lanes and would also remove them from college green.

The time of day at which they form the backbone of the public transport system are low in traffic volume so there should be no requirement for them to use CG or other bus lanes.

Just to clarify my posts on this issue.

I am NOT posting as an employee of ANY PT Operator,my views are personal but informed by my,(and my passengers) recent experiences.
In no way are my views influenced by either my employer or my union membership... ok ?

The issue of extended bus Operating times,as in 24 hour Routes is very much still in the offing,with the issue of staffing having been long ago decided.

What remains is the drawing up of schedules and rosters,and the agreement of the NTA to those.

I have no problem at all in saying that the lack of a 24 hour Bus Service for so long into the 21st century is inexcusable,but progress is being made.

As it stands,my point remains that Taxis are NOT a mainstream Public Transport Service,but this could equally be addressed by the NTA,should it decide to impose a regulatory regime on the industry,in which,taxidrivers would be required to operate a certain level of service,and adhere to other rules and regulations designed to improve the Public Transport model for ALL users.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/smell-rudeness-and-overcharging-among-complaints-about-taxis-1.3187822

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/taxi-drivers-may-have-to-wear-a-uniform-under-nta-plans-428413.html

Since the tests were introduced in July 2009, only 54% of more than 9,000 applicants have passed. Of the unsuccessful candidates, just over half made no attempt to re-sit the test. On average, an applicant had to sit the test almost three times to pass.

The NTA pointed out that, unlike in some other countries, once passed there is no compulsory on-going training for Irish taxi drivers and it is rarely undertaken by licence holders.

Other areas under review are medical fitness, age restrictions, language proficiency and the requirement for taxi drivers in some larger counties to have full area knowledge.

The NTA has,in the past,referred to a preference for an ongoing Training regime for Taxidrivers similar to the Drivers Certificate of Proffessional Competency which must be undertaken by ALL Bus,Coach & Truck Drivers in the E.U.

The issues currently under discussion here relate to the very real lack of options regarding the Bus & Tram operations,both of which are MASS Transit, and therefore deserving of the fullest access to the areas currently most blighted by Taxi operations,namely the College Green,Georges St,Dawson St triangle...nobody,least of all myself is suggesting a total ban on taxi's,but for sure some form of segregation in these areas is inevitable...unless we revert to the traditional,"ah sure it'll be grand" response ?

hotmail.com

antongavrikov wrote: »

Unless you go out at night a lot, i'm sure you will agree, that majority of common people rarely use taxis, so they are NOT AN ESSENTIAL part of public transport, public transport is in public, taxi is a private transportation which most of us can't afford, especially with mental pricing like the capital and big cities. Last time i took a cab was 2 years ago from NY night party. Also, i believe taxi drivers should have tougher regulations to follow and a personal attitude test and strict gardai vetting, as the 'test' they do now is an absolute joke. I hate this profession with passion, there is a handful of lads that are genuine, but from personal observation i can assure you, this profession needs a complete overhaul!

You haven't been in a taxi in 2 years and last time it was in New York..not even Ireland.

ThisRegard

hotmail.com wrote: »

You haven't been in a taxi in 2 years and last time it was in New York..not even Ireland.

New Years I'm assuming.

Spanish Eyes

We need to give this project time to settle down a bit. It is Christmas and traffic is always awful around now. Operation Freeflow anyone?

If it turns out that the congestion is still unreal in ordinary time well then, the time will have to come for DCC or whoever is in charge to make hard decisions for the good of mass PT users. They are nagging us all the time to ditch the car, time to put their money where their mouths are.

I think taxis will have to be banned from the CG area eventually. There are just far too many of them. They are like ants.

However, am I just being negative or can you see taxis protesting by parking across the tracks on CG? Not unheard of for taxi unions to do something like this.

hotmail.com

A charge like the London one is needed to put off those determined to drive to work, to shop etc even when they often live very close to the centre and could easily walk, cycle, get a bus, luas! That should be the focus of the debate, not on taxi drivers. Taxis help to keep down car ownership. Many rely on it to get around the city and it provides an income to thousands of people.

Zebra3

Car ownership isn’t an issue, it’s the use of cars that is.