Formula 1 2018: General Discussion Thread

Inviere

vectra wrote: »

Dani is decent but I wouldnt put him in the same league as seb.

I genuinely feel that'd be a mistake. He's more than decent, he's championship material.

vectra

Inviere wrote: »

I genuinely feel that'd be a mistake. He's more than decent, he's championship material.

We will agree to disagree.
If he is that good, why isnt he further up the points than Max?
Especially after the horrid start Max had to this season.

Inviere

vectra wrote: »

We will agree to disagree.
If he is that good, why isnt he further up the points than Max?
Especially after the horrid start Max had to this season.

Danny has had a torrid run of reliability. Factor in Max's dreadful run of incidents, and they're kinda balanced out. I'm not even comparing Danny against Seb from 2014, I feel he's been more than impressive enough on his own merits since then. Some of his overtakes under braking have been nothing short of art.

vectra

Inviere wrote: »

Danny has had a torrid run of reliability. Factor in Max's dreadful run of incidents, and they're kinda balanced out. I'm not even comparing Danny against Seb from 2014, I feel he's been more than impressive enough on his own merits since then. Some of his overtakes under braking have been nothing short of art.

I agree with you one his overtakes.
Some have been class.
Other than that.!

Inviere

Daniel's mechanical issue retirement rate this season so far is something around 25%...that's nuts

ayux4rj6zql2ph

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Inviere

Prisoner 6753 wrote: »

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You're not enjoying the battle for the drivers & constructors then? You'd rather it went from one team's domination to another? No thanks, Mercedes and Ferrari are nip and tuck, and it's the best thing that's happened in a long time in F1.

ELM327

Harika wrote: »

2007
Went into a car that didn’t win a race the year before. Nearly became champion with the Ferrari at least equal.
2008
Became champion with the Ferrari equal
2009
Third best car, miles away from the Brawn and behind the RedBull still managed a win
2010
Third best car, into the championship hunt till the last race
2011
Third best car, still won
2012
Third best car, still won
2013
Moved to a team that won a race in 2012, third strongest team maybe, won
2014-2018
In the best team, only beaten by this team mate in 2016
Every season in the top 5

Debatable but 40% in best car, 20% against comparable cars and 40% in underdeveloped cars.

Most of those years (excepting the first couple of Mercedes years) he has had either the best or joint best car by your own admission. I don't see how that proves your point.


Winning a race is irrelevant, sure Maldonado won a race in 2012. It's WC titles that count

Harika wrote: »

You don't have to divide by something, just look at the win percentage here: https://www.driverdb.com/championships/statistics/formula-1/
Removing the Indy racers, he is 4th behind Fangio, Ascari and Clarke.

Yes, someone in the best car for the majority of his career he should have a best win percentage.
It's difficult to compare so far back in different eras(particularly since I only really began fulltime watching the f1 in 1994) but I'm sure Schumacher would be ahead of him if he didn't have the mediocre years when he was in a bad mercedes car and he was past his prime.

ELM327

JPF82 wrote: »

Ah here. Rosberg was a decent driver and apart from Lewis having engine failure while leading in Malaysia, a race in which Rosberg was 5th, Lewis would have won the title that year too.

Over criticising Rosberg to further knock Hamilton. Well, if that's how you want to do it...

All the best drivers get the best cars too. Fangio had team mates that would give up their cars for him mid race, back when that was allowed. Senna and Prost, massive car advantage there at Mclaren. Seconds per lap faster than the next team. Ditto the Mansell title in 92 and Prost in 93 with Williams. Schumacher had lapdog teammates. Buttons title, blown diffuser so only beat barrichello. He should be embarrassed by calling himself a world champion. I jest of course.

I don't think anyone would have argued before Mercedes domination of the sport, that Rosberg was even close to the top tier of F1. It would be like Brundle winning a WC because Jordan happened to develop the top car.

Inviere

Inviere wrote: »

As opposed to Vettel's (not counting reserve and 3rd drives) mere two years in a mid field Torro Rosso, before moving to a massively competitive RB for 2009, and been in championship winning and contending cars since? C'mon...

Lets just skip over this then yeah?

H3llR4iser

ELM327 wrote: »

I don't think anyone would have argued before Mercedes domination of the sport, that Rosberg was even close to the top tier of F1. It would be like Brundle winning a WC because Jordan happened to develop the top car.

Actually, yes - he was tipped to be a WDC in the making when he raced at Williams and most lamented him losing the win at the infamous 2008 Singapore GP. Position furthered by the three seasons he drove alongside Schumacher.

The "mediocre driver" stigma was mostly Brundle's and Sky making when he became "the enemy" because he was the only guy who could reasonably beat their beloved Lewis...

skipper_G

ELM327 wrote: »

Most of those years (excepting the first couple of Mercedes years) he has had either the best or joint best car by your own admission. I don't see how that proves your point.


Winning a race is irrelevant, sure Maldonado won a race in 2012. It's WC titles that count




Yes, someone in the best car for the majority of his career he should have a best win percentage.
It's difficult to compare so far back in different eras(particularly since I only really began fulltime watching the f1 in 1994) but I'm sure Schumacher would be ahead of him if he didn't have the mediocre years when he was in a bad mercedes car and he was past his prime.

So according to your logic only World Championships won by a driver not in the best car really count. The the list of drivers to win the World Championship in a car that was not the winning constructor is pretty small:
Driver|Year
Lewis Hamilton|2008
Mika Hakkinen|1999
Michael Schumacher|1994
Alain Prost|1986
Keke Rosberg|1982
Nelson Piquet|1981, 1983
James Hunt|1976
Jackie Stewart|1973
Mike Hawthorn|1958

Funnily the last person to do it was Lewis Hamilton

Cool_CM

Shelflife wrote: »

Is there any reputable site selling tickets - general admission to the Hungarian GP ?

I see they are sold out on the official site but there seems to be plenty available on other sites.

Can anyone recommend where to purchase them ?

Book F1 still have them here:

https://www.bookf1.com/f1-hungary/tickets.htm

I got my stand tickets for cheaper than the f1 site and book F1 on through these guys:

https://www.hungaroinfo.com/formel1/tickets_all_en.htm

Frank Bullitt

vectra wrote: »

Not my point.
Dani was ( presumably compared to Vettel for his 14 year )
What has that got to do with present day?
Dani is decent but I wouldnt put him in the same league as seb.

No one said it had anything to do with present day though, the earlier statement was "Vettel is in a league of his own and would make any team mate look inadequate."

His form against Vettel (who was reigning champ and No.1 in the same team at the time) clearly puts doubt to that statement.

I'd easily have Dani in the top drivers on the grid right now, lest we forget he held of Vettel in the superior Ferrari, with a broken car in Monaco. He is very much in the same league as Vettel.

Here is is overtaking Bottas, Hamilton and Vettel...what league was that? :rolleyes:

ayux4rj6zql2ph

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ELM327

Gintonious wrote: »

No one said it had anything to do with present day though, the earlier statement was "Vettel is in a league of his own and would make any team mate look inadequate."

His form against Vettel (who was reigning champ and No.1 in the same team at the time) clearly puts doubt to that statement.

I'd easily have Dani in the top drivers on the grid right now, lest we forget he held of Vettel in the superior Ferrari, with a broken car in Monaco. He is very much in the same league as Vettel.

Here is is overtaking Bottas, Hamilton and Vettel...what league was that? :rolleyes:

In fairness, any car could win in Monaco if it were leading after the pit stops. Monaco is not a race these days, more of a spectacle.


Danny is great on the brakes and overtaking when others wouldn't or can't, and when Max would crash. I'll give him that.


But he hasn't been in a top car yet... and that's another problem, if you're in the top car you win if you're the lead driver - most of the time.

ayux4rj6zql2ph

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ELM327

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Actually, yes - he was tipped to be a WDC in the making when he raced at Williams and most lamented him losing the win at the infamous 2008 Singapore GP. Position furthered by the three seasons he drove alongside Schumacher.

The "mediocre driver" stigma was mostly Brundle's and Sky making when he became "the enemy" because he was the only guy who could reasonably beat their beloved Lewis...

Maybe I've been brainwashed by Sky then, but as a seb fan I don't think so!

skipper_G wrote: »

So according to your logic only World Championships won by a driver not in the best car really count. The the list of drivers to win the World Championship in a car that was not the winning constructor is pretty small:
Driver|Year
Lewis Hamilton|2008
Mika Hakkinen|1999
Michael Schumacher|1994
Alain Prost|1986
Keke Rosberg|1982
Nelson Piquet|1981, 1983
James Hunt|1976
Jackie Stewart|1973
Mike Hawthorn|1958
Funnily the last person to do it was Lewis Hamilton

Not "only World Championships won by a driver not in the best car" but that it is a good indicator.


IMO - Mclaren would have won the constructors championship in 2008 if lewis didn't have the dead weight teammate he had in kovaleinen (sp).


Similarly in 99 Mclaren for Hakkinen had by far and away the best car. It was more unreliable, and afair they crashed into each other??

94 was a difficult year for all, but schumacher was in a class of his own once Senna unfortunately passed.

ELM327

Prisoner 6753 wrote: »

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Ah Panis. Crashed and banged his way to a win.That race lives on in infamy and I still joke about it with my brother (also an f1 fan) these days.


I was a Hill fan back then, so was disappointed to see his engine let go - unusually for the FW18 -but delighted for Panis.

ayux4rj6zql2ph

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vectra

Gintonious wrote: »

I'd easily have Dani in the top drivers on the grid right now, lest we forget he held of Vettel in the superior Ferrari, with a broken car in Monaco. He is very much in the same league as Vettel.

Nobody including myself is doubting Dani is a good driver,
That comment about keeping Vettel behind in Monaco with a broken car is not really a valid comparison as Monaco is not really an overtaking track , nor is it a power track, On saying that then, didn't Dani keep the whole field behind him?

Also,
Go back a couple of races ( 2 or 3 ) where Kimi was stuck behind a Red Bull, I think Max's car, He stated that of all the cars he passed, it felt really weird behind the RB, car. He just couldnt do anything.

The main reason for Vettels fall back was the change of design and aero in the 2014 car, ( lack of blown diffuser and mapping )

Frank Bullitt

https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1022054537778089984

This is really sad news, unfortunately Sergio Marchionne has passed away. RIP.

skipper_G

ELM327 wrote: »

Maybe I've been brainwashed by Sky then, but as a seb fan I don't think so!



Not "only World Championships won by a driver not in the best car" but that it is a good indicator.


IMO - Mclaren would have won the constructors championship in 2008 if lewis didn't have the dead weight teammate he had in kovaleinen (sp).


Similarly in 99 Mclaren for Hakkinen had by far and away the best car. It was more unreliable, and afair they crashed into each other??

94 was a difficult year for all, but schumacher was in a class of his own once Senna unfortunately passed.

Seems to me you're moving the goalposts again to make the facts fit your agenda. You don't like Hamilton and you do like Vettel. Personally I don't like either of them, I'm an Alonso fan. But I'm perfectly aware of how good Hamilton & Vettel are, they are up there with the very best.

skipper_G

Gintonious wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1022054537778089984

This is really sad news, unfortunately Sergio Marchionne has passed away. RIP.

Sad news for his family and all the people at Ferrari, RIP

Frank Bullitt

vectra wrote: »

Nobody including myself is doubting Dani is a good driver,
That comment about keeping Vettel behind in Monaco with a broken car is not really a valid comparison as Monaco is not really an overtaking track , nor is it a power track, On saying that then, didn't Dani keep the whole field behind him?

Also,
Go back a couple of races ( 2 or 3 ) where Kimi was stuck behind a Red Bull, I think Max's car, He stated that of all the cars he passed, it felt really weird behind the RB, car. He just couldnt do anything.

The main reason for Vettels fall back was the change of design and aero in the 2014 car, ( lack of blown diffuser and mapping )

Generally, the race winner will do that yes, for every race!

It is absolutely a valid point, he had to manage the car (just like Schumacher did when he was stuck in 5th gear) for quite a few laps. Who cares if its not a power circuit? Surely a broken car is slower than the fastest car in the field (the Ferrari) no?

Your second point about Kimi following the RB, thats the exact same as to what was happening to Vettel at the weekend following Kimi. Cars with the most amount of DF will disturb more air, thus making it harder for cars to follow.

So the main reason for Vettel fall back was the small change to the aero? Nothing to do with Ricciardo just being better that season then at all...despite having the exact same machinery? This is a 4 time champ we are talking about, the design changes affected his teammate just as much, yet he got the better of the results.

5. Reduction in nose and chassis height

Chassis height has been reduced from 625mm to 525mm while the height of the nose has been shortened from 550mm to 185mm. With these reductions the drivers will notice a subtle change as their feet will be around 100mm lower in the car than in 2013.

6. Narrow front wing

There is a small change in the design to avoid cars' front wing puncturing the rear wheel of the competitor's car in the case of a backending -- the width of the front wing has been reduced from 1,800mm to 1,650mm.

Each side of the front wing has been moved 75mm inwards, which will result in the overall reduction of 150mm in the front wing.

vectra

Good lord, That was fast!
RIP Sergio.

Inviere

skipper_G wrote: »

Seems to me you're moving the goalposts again to make the facts fit your agenda.

That's precisely what's going on. The below still hasn't been acknowledged or countered in any meaningful sense.

Inviere wrote: »

As opposed to Vettel's (not counting reserve and 3rd drives) mere two years in a mid field Torro Rosso, before moving to a massively competitive RB for 2009, and been in championship winning and contending cars since? C'mon...

Inviere wrote: »

Lets just skip over this then yeah?

ELM327

Prisoner 6753 wrote: »

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Brundle's words..
when hill starts losing pace on the last lap "No he doesn't"
Villeneuve passes him off the track (would that be disallowed now :D)"He's passed him on the grass"

Inviere

Also, the point about Ricciardo not being in a top team yet is wholly contradictory. It simply proves he's won races in a car that hasn't been the best on the grid, a measure used previously to attempt to berate Lewis' drives :rolleyes:

ELM327

Gintonious wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1022054537778089984

This is really sad news, unfortunately Sergio Marchionne has passed away. RIP.

RIP... such a quick move from hearing he wasn't well to actually passing away.