Disposable Income Gone

cantdecide

mariaalice wrote: »

If that is the case then the 7 euro just get recycled in to the job/admin/bonus of those managing the outsourcing of the services. The services does not in reality cost lest. All you are getting is non unionised more flexible employment.

I worked a job that if I described to you, you would literally make you believe I had to be a civil servant. This job used to be done by civil servants. You would probably hope and expect that this work would be done in the civil service. I literally attained potential 'dirt' on friends, acquaintances and neighbors while doing this job such was the sensitivity of some of the material and I, a mere civilian among many other civilians in an environment that churned desperate people over and over again.

The gross starting wage at the time was €8.65/hr + a bonus up to €250/ quarter if you exceeded your quality and productivity targets. No trickery - that's all there was with precious little room to advance. That was €18,000 + €1,000 bonus in 2014.

So what would you reckon the saving of a civil servant without all the perks and pensions would be per head? I sincerely doubt there isn't a significant saving to the taxpayer there and I would regard myself as not being a tax payer while I did this job such was the low wage misery I had at the time. I made little contribution to society at the time while basically just working to cover bills (and pay the expensive fees for the degree course I started that year).

mariaalice

What is happening is the availability of low skills but reasonably well paid unionised full time jobs is dispersing. At one stage an unskilled job in the ESB or the P&T ( as it was called then ) was almost views as a lotto win.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

donegaLroad

Pithythefool wrote: »

Are you ten years old?

I think it's sarcasm

topper75

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That would be me. I'm on nowhere near such money. People talking about a 'neo-liberal' system here in Ireland don't even have the first clue about what the word means. Sorry to be so dismissive, but they simply don't.

Check this:
Standard rates and thresholds of USC 2017

First €12,012 0.5%
Next €6,760 2.5%
Next €51,272 5%
Balance 8%

People afforded houses in the 80s yes. But talk to them. Ask them what they had to do. It was rough. To begin with it was a balls getting a bank to lend to you at all. They were cagey as hell. There was no euro, no ECB base rate. So, the interest compared to today was merciless. You kept life simple and you paid your mortgage every month. Are youngsters willing to make sacrifices nowadays or are they persisting with a have cake and eat it mentality?

cantdecide

topper75 wrote: »

People afforded houses in the 80s yes. But talk to them. Ask them what they had to do. It was rough. To begin with it was a balls getting a bank to lend to you at all. They were cagey as hell. There was no euro, no ECB base rate. So, the interest compared to today was merciless. You kept life simple and you paid your mortgage every month. Are youngsters willing to make sacrifices nowadays or are they persisting with a have cake and eat it mentality?

I think there aren't enough sacrifices that some people can make to own houses. Maybe that's why people in the 80s got 20 year mortgages for a 4 bed house on a single income (ie my parents, using my dad's carpenter's wage, my mother was a homemaker). Nowadays, to buy the same house would probably take a couple of professionals on executive wages 30 years to buy even with lots and lots of sacrifices.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

PeterParker957

McGaggs wrote: »

It is something else, I was just correcting the notion that you need to be earning loads to pay tax at 40%.

Quite right - I pay tax at 40%. Trust me it's far from "loads".

donegaLroad

topper75 wrote: »

That would be me. I'm on nowhere near such money. People talking about a 'neo-liberal' system here in Ireland don't even have the first clue about what the word means. Sorry to be so dismissive, but they simply don't.

Check this:
Standard rates and thresholds of USC 2017

First €12,012 0.5%
Next €6,760 2.5%
Next €51,272 5%
Balance 8%

People afforded houses in the 80s yes. But talk to them. Ask them what they had to do. It was rough. To begin with it was a balls getting a bank to lend to you at all. They were cagey as hell. There was no euro, no ECB base rate. So, the interest compared to today was merciless. You kept life simple and you paid your mortgage every month. Are youngsters willing to make sacrifices nowadays or are they persisting with a have cake and eat it mentality?

Back then the loan term was a lot shorter, and the loan amount to earnings ratio was a lot closer. Today if we borrow 300k @ 4 percent, for 30 years, we will be paying back upwards of 530k at the end of the term of the loan

donegaLroad

My livelihood depends almost completely on the amount of disposable income people have. The last good year I had was 2003.

2004 was middling, and it plateaued from there until 2008, where it fell off a cliff. I had to look abroad to expand my market via online. Social media worked to a certain degree, and more lately, within the last 18 months there has been a difference for the better.

Still, most of the enquiries I get are from the USA and the UK, with very few from ROI.

Sleepy

Ever hear the expression "the only hard million to make is the first one"?

Our acceptance of that maxim is the problem: the return on capital is more rewardedand less taxed than the wages of labour. This will always result in the centralisation of resources.

Unfortunately, it's not something that can be fixed at a nation state level in a globalised world. Should we increase taxes on capital investment here in Ireland, multi-nationals will invest their capital elsewhere and we'll be left with mass unemployment. There's no easy fix to this unfortunately.

cantdecide

Sleepy wrote: »

Ever hear the expression "the only hard million to make is the first one"?

Electric Sheep

cantdecide wrote: »

I think there aren't enough sacrifices that some people can make to own houses. Maybe that's why people in the 80s got 20 year mortgages for a 4 bed house on a single income (ie my parents, using my dad's carpenter's wage, my mother was a homemaker). Nowadays, to buy the same house would probably take a couple of professionals on executive wages 30 years to buy even with lots and lots of sacrifices.

I bet that before marrying your parents lived with their parents and saved hard for several years for the deposit on that house. Bought the house before having kids. Did without holidays and nights out. Furnished the house gradually with second hand furniture.

It was never easy to buy a house. It was never easy to come up with the deposit. That brief Celtic Tiger blip was the exception, not the rule but it seems to have distorted many people's views on what it takes to own the roof over your head.

mariaalice

I find the one about having children and then buying a house puzzling to be honest, having children is going to affect getting a mortgage hugely.

topper75

Sleepy wrote: »

the return on capital is more rewarded and less taxed than the wages of labour.

Yes it is. But of course why shouldn't they be different. It's apples and oranges.

Labour return can't be negative, ever. You don't end up paying back an employer if trading is poor or your work is shoddy. Capital on the other hand as many the poor divil has found out ...

Wages are spent in the economy and stimulate demand and fuel growth. Important. But nowhere near as important for creating our future economy as the re-investment of profit as further capital esp R&D investment and startup capital.

Hence tax policy treats them differently. This makes sense for any govt who gives a monkeys for the welfare of the state beyond a five-year term.

And that is why in the long game socialist countries inevitably get run into the ground.

topper75

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Your sums are right actually. I was wrong and overestimated. So now we are talking 52c on every euro, not 55c.

I get 48c out of every extra euro I might bother my ass to go out and earn. And spending that 48c may see me lose more paying VAT of 11c (@std rate).

We badly need some neo-liberal policy here - less tax AND less spending. Govt needs to pull back out of the economy not get more involved.

Any sane poster on the thread still want to claim that we have neo-liberal economics practiced by political parties in this country?

Electric Sheep

mariaalice wrote: »

I find the one about having children and then buying a house puzzling to be honest, having children is going to affect getting a mortgage hugely.

Of course it does. So does spending the price of a house deposit on a dream wedding and dream honeymoon. It's about priorities, not about having it all at the same time.

cantdecide

Electric Sheep wrote: »

I bet that before marrying your parents lived with their parents and saved hard for several years for the deposit on that house.

Actually, no. They were renting and had already had my older sister (hence the single income). They were able to pull a stunt of some kind. My dad would tell you "sure I had nothing saved when we went for the house". I don't know what the nature of the stunt was but I think it involved getting a mortgage to build the house AND buy the land which they shouldn't have been able to do both. Not sure tbh but doubt there are no such stunts that could happen today.

Electric Sheep wrote: »

Did without holidays and nights out. Furnished the house gradually with second hand furniture.

Yes indeed. But there was a grant to help people furnish their house at the time, apparently which helped in their case.

Electric Sheep wrote: »

It was never easy to buy a house. It was never easy to come up with the deposit. That brief Celtic Tiger blip was the exception, not the rule but it seems to have distorted many people's views on what it takes to own the roof over your head.

You simply can't deny the fact that mortgage terms have nearly doubled in my lifetime (I'm 36 btw). That's a bit of a smoking gun. My dad's older sister got a 15 year mortgage in the mid 70s for a 3 bed bungalow and again, they just had a single income as she stayed at home. My dad would tell you that this sister thought he was mad for taking on a massive mortgage like that.

I always think of the quote when having this conversation "Whenever you feel like criticizing any one, just remember that all the people in this world haven't had the advantages that you've had". The unadvantaged are the new disadvantaged, IMO. That is to say that unless you have the promise of a site or lump sum or an inheritance or a generous family, or even one member of the household having had career luck (with the right decisions, obvs), then you're likely to be out in the cold. Maybe it's just the world I'm living in but all around me, I'm seeing family (and I have an enormous family) and friends, colleagues and contemporaries all struggling and living in very modest means trying to keep what they managed to get before the recession (those lucky enough to get established before the recession) and not holding much hope of advancing without some kind of miracle. The ones who are advancing are the ones who have advantages to press into play like the ones I exampled above.

There are now a huge amount of people who could never get a house or a flat of any use to them - it doesn't take that much to be disadvantaged to being below the low water mark and out of the market these days. My generation is full of people like that. In other words, from a standing start in post recession Ireland, a couple are unlikely to put a roof over their heads with hard work alone. Let alone someone who is single. It's possible I just need new circles who crib less, I suppose.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

topper75

Pension? :-) Ah draiocht! Re-check the thread title!

Sleepy

topper75 wrote: »

Yes it is. But of course why shouldn't they be different. It's apples and oranges.

Labour return can't be negative, ever. You don't end up paying back an employer if trading is poor or your work is shoddy. Capital on the other hand as many the poor divil has found out ...

Wages are spent in the economy and stimulate demand and fuel growth. Important. But nowhere near as important for creating our future economy as the re-investment of profit as further capital esp R&D investment and startup capital.

Hence tax policy treats them differently. This makes sense for any govt who gives a monkeys for the welfare of the state beyond a five-year term.

And that is why in the long game socialist countries inevitably get run into the ground.

I don't disagree that they shouldn't be taxed differently, I'd simply argue that, globally, we have chosen to reward investment risk excessively. It's not difficult to see why either: those with the capital are the ones funding government.

Profit will, by it's very nature, always tend to be re-invested at a higher rate than wages. Though, capital doesn't always come in the form of profit. It often comes through unearned sources such as inheritance.

Wanderer78

topper75 wrote: »

Your sums are right actually. I was wrong and overestimated. So now we are talking 52c on every euro, not 55c.

I get 48c out of every extra euro I might bother my ass to go out and earn. And spending that 48c may see me lose more paying VAT of 11c (@std rate).

We badly need some neo-liberal policy here - less tax AND less spending. Govt needs to pull back out of the economy not get more involved.

Any sane poster on the thread still want to claim that we have neo-liberal economics practiced by political parties in this country?

plenty of evidence to show neoliberalism and its partner in crime, neoclassical theory, is a bust

eeguy

Wanderer78 wrote: »

plenty of evidence to show neoliberalism and its partner in crime, neoclassical theory, is a bust

When you find a better system to the sh*t one we have now, feel free to let us know.

Wanderer78

eeguy wrote: »

When you find a better system to the sh*t one we have now, feel free to let us know.

thankfully there are individuals and groups working on it, some very interesting ideas out there, little or no political will at the moment though to begin entertaining these ideas though, leading me to believe, we ll probably have to experience a couple of more serious economic/financial shocks such as 2008 before that happens. of course we could just keep continue as is without changing much and hoping for the best!

topper75

Wanderer78 wrote: »

plenty of evidence to show neoliberalism and its partner in crime, neoclassical theory, is a bust

Bust? really? Well the bread van unloaded OK outside our local supermarket this morning.
Maybe your one was just delayed.

Grayson

eeguy wrote: »

When you find a better system to the sh*t one we have now, feel free to let us know.

The one we had beforehand wasn't bad. By beforehand I mean up until the banks got deregulated in the 80's and free market capitalism took over.

Grayson

Grayson wrote: »

The one we had beforehand wasn't bad. By beforehand I mean up until the banks got deregulated in the 80's and free market capitalism took over.

Banks have always been privately owned, only exceptions have been those in communist countries and those that were (temporarily) bailed out.
Banks were much more careful about who they lent to in the past.

Heres Johnny

Honestly some of the nonsense in here. Reading it has annoyed me.

People spend on frivolous things. My father, or his father before was not in Starbucks buying coffee for 4 quid. They weren't in spar buying a deli roll, crisps, chewing gum and the star newspaper walking out with 3 or 4 quid change from a tenner. Granted, they were in the pub but they enjoyed that, there was no alternative to meeting the lads for a pint.
There is an alternative to going out for lunch everyday buying processed crap.

I'm fed up of people bitching and moaning about being broke. Most of the cases they are not broke anyway and if they are it's their own fault.

Inability to budget. Inability to plan and forecast.

I actually don't care if people spend all their money that's up to them but when I have to listen to it from my peers in the pub about being broke it's a pain in the hole.

Garda friend of mine and his teacher wife. Moan moan moan. Must be loads of money coming into that house.

Myself and my girlfriend both bought houses in the Dublin area in 2010-2012 on single salaries before we were together, me a 3 bed and she a 4 bed, we maintain both homes and all that goes with home ownership independently for now but will probably sell one soon. It can be done.

We are both mid 30s, both have cars, both go out at weekends together and independently and go on trips away.
Both have pensions, both put savings away. If a baby or 2 comes along we will be fine too. Just booked a 6 nations trip away with the lads this morning as it happens.

Good jobs, I'm in insurance she's in accounting. Both have degrees, professional qualifications and prospects.

My brother and his girlfriend are a bit younger and they are on the same path and just bought a house together in Dublin 2 years after he finished IT degree in university.

No silver spoon in our mouths when born, just decent upbringing and a brain in our heads and a dose of cop on. And yes, we make our tea and coffee in the house before we leave for work.

I have friends and business acquaintances that wouldn't know a budget it it kicked them in the nuts.

I buy things I don't need too but I don't moan about not being able to afford the things I need.

So snowflakes, buy what you need or buy crap that catches your eye. Or get better jobs.

McCrack

Nice try

LirW

Heres Johnny wrote: »

Honestly some of the nonsense in here. Reading it has annoyed me.

People spend on frivolous things. My father, or his father before was not in Starbucks buying coffee for 4 quid. They weren't in spar buying a deli roll, crisps, chewing gum and the star newspaper walking out with 3 or 4 quid change from a tenner. Granted, they were in the pub but they enjoyed that, there was no alternative to meeting the lads for a pint.
There is an alternative to going out for lunch everyday buying processed crap.

I'm fed up of people bitching and moaning about being broke. Most of the cases they are not broke anyway and if they are it's their own fault.

Inability to budget. Inability to plan and forecast.

I actually don't care if people spend all their money that's up to them but when I have to listen to it from my peers in the pub about being broke it's a pain in the hole.

Garda friend of mine and his teacher wife. Moan moan moan. Must be loads of money coming into that house.

Myself and my girlfriend both bought houses in the Dublin area in 2010-2012 on single salaries before we were together, me a 3 bed and she a 4 bed, we maintain both homes and all that goes with home ownership independently for now but will probably sell one soon. It can be done.

We are both mid 30s, both have cars, both go out at weekends together and independently and go on trips away.
Both have pensions, both put savings away. If a baby or 2 comes along we will be fine too. Just booked a 6 nations trip away with the lads this morning as it happens.

Good jobs, I'm in insurance she's in accounting. Both have degrees, professional qualifications and prospects.

My brother and his girlfriend are a bit younger and they are on the same path and just bought a house together in Dublin 2 years after he finished IT degree in university.

No silver spoon in our mouths when born, just decent upbringing and a brain in our heads and a dose of cop on. And yes, we make our tea and coffee in the house before we leave for work.

I have friends and business acquaintances that wouldn't know a budget it it kicked them in the nuts.

I buy things I don't need too but I don't moan about not being able to afford the things I need.

So snowflakes, buy what you need or buy crap that catches your eye. Or get better jobs.

Good lad yourself.

Maybe it's a good thing to mention that you bought in an absolute downturn where property was dirt cheap in Dublin and people struggled to get mortgages because banks weren't lending the way they did before or do now.

Prices have gone up. Even if a couple on let's say 70k combined wants to buy in Dublin, they'd get a mortgage approved for 245k plus whatever deposit they have. They'll find themselves in the bracket with the most pressure on it because that's the budget the majority of FTBs have with smaller deposits. Can easily happen that they'll get priced out. No Starbucks coffee is going to change that.

Not denying that some people are beyond bad with money but you gotta draw a line somewhere.