Disposable Income Gone

CalamariFritti

Richard Hillman wrote: »

This is what happens when you introduce Communism through the back door.

I think it's more that the trickling down thing is a bit slow.

Wanderer78

CalamariFritti wrote: »

I think it's more that the trickling down thing is a bit slow.

or maybe its actually trickle up;)

Mr. teddywinkles

draiochtanois wrote: »

Buying 2 of those every day for 5 years = €16790

And that's what everyone is doing wrong.

Crypto Coin

Wanderer78 wrote: »

again, agree, but the problem now is the amount of debt, particularly private debt, but again, are we really wealthier or debtier? pardon the pun:)

again, we really do need to start addressing these debt problems, theyre starting to have seriously negative effects on our societies. its very evident in younger generations and i do think it ll stifle our progression as a species. i do believe the true wealth for many if not all innovations are ending in the hands of the minority, this is a problem!

We are wealthier and we have more debt. Forget about money for a minute. Just look at what we produce. We produce higher quanities per person, and higher quality per person. An hours unskiller labour gets you a vast collection of music to listen to for one month. An hours unskilled labour could get you maybe one CD twenty years ago.

Nobody is forced to take out debt. You can live wealthy lifestyle (relative to the past) on a minimu wage job without ever taking out any form of loans.

myshirt

cefh17 wrote: »

This isn't an 'oh I'm great' post, and I realise that I'm lucky in being able to do that.. but at the same time people need to realise that the old age pension won't be there in the same guise that it is now when we hit retirement age. And that really unless you have some kind of emergency fund that you're not really as comfortable and safe as you think.

They really need to do some sort of basic economics/budgeting/how to be an adult class in secondary school that's mandatory. And scrap Irish in its place preferably

How much of your cost of living is hidden I wonder. Where are you living? Are you with parents? Are you out on your own? Have you kids?

Wanderer78

Crypto Coin wrote: »

We are wealthier and we have more debt. Forget about money for a minute. Just look at what we produce. We produce higher quanities per person, and higher quality per person. An hours unskiller labour gets you a vast collection of music to listen to for one month. An hours unskilled labour could get you maybe one CD twenty years ago.

Nobody is forced to take out debt. You can live wealthy lifestyle (relative to the past) on a minimu wage job without ever taking out any form of loans.

but has the majority gained financially from this access to these products and services? im not disputing your facts, you are correct in that regard. sadly, this is where believers in neoclassical theory fall, i.e they tend to ignore money, its creation and debt in their theories, methods and models. we need to start thinking about this and including it in our economic systems and models, asap, or this could all collapse in a blaze of glory, the crash in 2008 was a wake up call regarding these issues.

oh famous last words, try live in a modern economy such as ours without debt and see what happens!;)

Crypto Coin

Wanderer78 wrote: »

but has the majority gained financially from this access to these products and services? im not disputing your facts, you are correct in that regard. sadly, this is where believers in neoclassical theory fall, i.e they tend to ignore money, its creation and debt in their theories, methods and models. we need to start thinking about this and including it in our economic systems and models, asap, or this could all collapse in a blaze of glory, the crash in 2008 was a wake up call regarding these issues.

oh famous last words, try live in a modern economy such as ours without debt and see what happens!;)

People gain from access to the products, the products are the wealth. Money is useless if without products and services. You are thinking about this from a money perspective.

If you have one billion euro but nobody wants to make a product or service then the money is useless.

When you watch a ultra high definition tv for the same price as a crt tv from 20 years ago you are wealthier. Even though you might not have more money.

Wanderer78

Crypto Coin wrote: »

People gain from access to the products, the products are the wealth. Money is useless if without products and services. You are thinking about this from a money perspective.

If you have one billion euro but nobody wants to make a product or service then the money is useless.

When you watch a ultra high definition tv for the same price as a crt tv from 20 years ago you are wealthier. Even though you might not have more money.

so people are wealthy if they have stuff, but debt accumulation isnt really that important? this is all sounding very neoclassical:)

i must be poor then, my 18 year old crt is still going, not strongly unfortunately:)

Crypto Coin

Wanderer78 wrote: »

so people are wealthy if they have stuff, but debt accumulation isnt really that important? this is all sounding very neoclassical:)

i must be poor then, my 18 year old crt is still going, not strongly unfortunately:)

Wealth is relative, people are wealthier on average if they have access to better products and service and more of them.

I never said debt accumulation isn't important. Debt is a useful tool for an economy which creates huge wealth. Tools used in the wrong manner can also destroy wealth.

Ultimately, for a wealthy society, the population creates more products, better products, and cheaper products. We are a very wealthy society, it is perfectly possible to live very prosperous lifestyle in comparison to the past without taking out loans.

When the washing machine was invented, wealth was created.

pilly

mfceiling wrote:

2 music festivals a year @â;‚¬750 a time...really? 2 takeaway coffees EVERY day for 365 days of the year (good luck finding a coffee shop open on Xmas day).

Believe me as a middle aged aul one you will have better memories of those music festivals than you will of the day you took on a lifetime of debt.

DivingDuck

pilly wrote: »

Believe me as a middle aged aul one you will have better memories of those music festivals than you will of the day you took on a lifetime of debt.

Again, this depends on the person.

I remember my college days pretty fondly, but my first night in my own home was significantly more meaningful than any drink-fuelled college experience, and I look back on it with a lot more warmth.

pilly

DivingDuck wrote:

I remember my college days pretty fondly, but my first night in my own home was significantly more meaningful than any drink-fuelled college experience, and I look back on it with a lot more warmth.

I don't drink so perhaps my memories of music festivals are less foggy.

Wanderer78

Crypto Coin wrote: »

Wealth is relative, people are wealthier on average if they have access to better products and service and more of them.

I never said debt accumulation isn't important. Debt is a useful tool for an economy which creates huge wealth. Tools used in the wrong manner can also destroy wealth.

Ultimately, for a wealthy society, the population creates more products, better products, and cheaper products. We are a very wealthy society, it is perfectly possible to live very prosperous lifestyle in comparison to the past without taking out loans.

When the washing machine was invented, wealth was created.

now theres a statement!

lets take a look at this,

america is a fine example of where this statement collapses, europe isnt far behind, as are other developed parts of the world.

so america, no debt, equals little or no higher education, equals little chance of obtaining a decent wage. could you even obtain a place to live in certain places on low wage there?

believe it or not, people are actually taking out loans here to get themselves and their kids through our educational system. we re on the way!;)

so if the majority take on the majority of the debt accumulated from the production of these goods and services, and the minority gain the actual wealth, this is ok, and is sustainable?

Crypto Coin

Wanderer78 wrote: »

now theres a statement!

lets take a look at this,

america is a fine example of where this statement collapses, europe isnt far behind, as are other developed parts of the world.

so america, no debt, equals little or no higher education, equals little chance of obtaining a decent wage. could you even obtain a place to live in certain places on low wage there?

believe it or not, people are actually taking out loans here to get themselves and their kids through our educational system. we re on the way!;)

so if the majority take on the majority of the debt accumulated from the production of these goods and services, and the minority gain the actual wealth, this is ok, and is sustainable?

I was referencing an individual, an individual can be relatively prosperous and debt free on the minimum wage.

I already said debt is a useful tool for an economy which can hugely increase wealth. With debt available, people can set up businesses which wouldn't have otherwise been possible. These businesses can create value and wealth.

DivingDuck

pilly wrote: »

I don't drink so perhaps my memories of music festivals are less foggy.

I'm not much of a drinker myself, but festivals are my idea of a nightmare, so it was the closest comparison I had...!

The ultimate point is this, though: different people like different things, and that's all right. No person's list of priorities is worse than another's unless they're expecting other people to pick up the slack for them. Everyone has the right to make their own choices. However, we all have to sacrifice some things we'd like (for example, I was happy to forgo "experiences", but I'd have liked a lot more holidays and a lot more tech) to in order to obtain the things we prioritise more highly. If you won't make the sacrifice, you shouldn't make complaints, either.

Nobody gets everything they want. Nobody's ever gotten everything they want. Even at the billionaire level, there's always a yacht that's out of your reach, or a home that somebody outbids you for, or a one-of-a-kind item somebody snaps up before you can. That's just how life is.

Wanderer78

Crypto Coin wrote: »

I was referencing an individual, an individual can be relatively prosperous and debt free on the minimum wage.

I already said debt is a useful tool for an economy which can hugely increase wealth. With debt available, people can set up businesses which wouldn't have otherwise been possible. These businesses can create value and wealth.

hmmm, this conversation is getting a bit weird, prosperous and minimum wage in the same sentence! :eek: oh deary me, we ve got some work to be doing if some believe this, i also suspect some of our policy makers and politicians actually believe this to.

agree, debt most certainly is a necessary evil, and can do fantastic things as you described, but the accumulation of debt, particularly private debt is now becoming a serious problem, its unsustainable. its effectively helping to create a modern day 'rentier class', leading to a trickle up of wealth

Crypto Coin

Wanderer78 wrote: »

hmmm, this conversation is getting a bit weird, prosperous and minimum wage in the same sentence! :eek: oh deary me, we ve got some work to be doing if some believe this, i also suspect some of our policy makers and politicians actually believe this to.

agree, debt most certainly is a necessary evil, and can do fantastic things as you described, but the accumulation of debt, particularly private debt is now becoming a serious problem, its unsustainable. its effectively helping to create a modern day 'rentier class', leading to a trickle up of wealth

If you could go back in time 60 years I think you would change your opinion on what prosperous is.

There is nothing inherently wrong with debt. Overall it creates hige wealth compared to without debt, and also it can destroy wealth if not managed properly.

Wanderer78

Crypto Coin wrote: »

If you could go back in time 60 years I think you would change your opinion on what prosperous is.

There is nothing inherently wrong with debt. Overall it creates hige wealth compared to without debt, and also it can destroy wealth if not managed properly.

oh please be aware, i do realise theres far more 'wealth' around nowadays, i would even class myself as wealthy, and i have very little compared to many my age in this country, my problem is with the distribution of 'wealth' and our actually definition of wealth. if one has large amounts of debt, are they considered 'wealthy'?

debt most definitely has a positive role in society, but are we actually using it wisely or is it entrapping certain societies and certain sections of society?

hurler32

My main argument is there is a bigger Percentage of the workforce earning the minimum wage 9.75 per hour or close to it than ever before ..if you are in what's deemed to be a unskilled or moderately skilled job ... the employers opening stance is ... Minimum wage ... if you won't do it .. they'll get a Romanian or Albanian like Panda waste ..
Meanwhile the company owner will edge their way closer to Billionaire status ...

Crypto Coin

hurler32 wrote: »

My main argument is there is a bigger Percentage of the workforce earning the minimum wage 9.75 per hour or close to it than ever before ..if you are in what's deemed to be a unskilled or moderately skilled job ... the employers opening stance is ... Minimum wage ... if you won't do it .. they'll get a Romanian or Albanian like Panda waste ..
Meanwhile the company owner will edge their way closer to Billionaire status ...

Most company owners are not billionaires or anywhere close.

Sunny Disposition

I'd say it is harder for young people now. I finished college in 2003, no bother on relatively low wages to go out for a few pints every week, maybe a few times, and still save a bit.
Accommodation has gone up v quickly since the recession, college way dearer now than back then. The only thing I remember being much worse was car insurance, which used to be penal for young male drivers.

Permabear

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Permabear

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Electric Sheep

hurler32 wrote: »

My main argument is there is a bigger Percentage of the workforce earning the minimum wage 9.75 per hour or close to it than ever before ..if you are in what's deemed to be a unskilled or moderately skilled job ... the employers opening stance is ... Minimum wage ... if you won't do it .. they'll get a Romanian or Albanian like Panda waste ..
Meanwhile the company owner will edge their way closer to Billionaire status ...

If you believe it was different from that in Ireland from the 50s to the mid 90s you either never knew or have completely forgotten what it was like.

nice_guy80

our school principal yesterday told the children in school that her treat (and siblings) after dinner when they were children was a quarter of an apple in the evening.

the children were utterly perplexed.

We're not doing too bad nowadays.

Geuze

Wanderer78 wrote: »

oh please be aware, i do realise theres far more 'wealth' around nowadays, i would even class myself as wealthy, and i have very little compared to many my age in this country, my problem is with the distribution of 'wealth' and our actually definition of wealth. if one has large amounts of debt, are they considered 'wealthy'?

Gross wealth = before debt

Net wealth = after debt taken off

See here:

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/socialconditions/2013/hfcs2013.pdf

Wanderer78

Geuze wrote: »

Gross wealth = before debt

Net wealth = after debt taken off

See here:

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/socialconditions/2013/hfcs2013.pdf

sorry i cant read that, can you explain it to me? thank you

a large proportion of my views on debt, particular private debt, comes from the work of people such as steve keen, michael hudson, david mcwilliams, yanis varoufakis, bill black, stephen kinsella, richard wolff, thomas piketty, ellen brown, joe stiglitz, ha-joon chang etc etc etc.

id have to agree with their views, private debt is now out of hand, its unsustainable, and is actually starting to effectively crush the future abilities of many in society, even well educated middle class people.

Geuze

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

https://www.esri.ie/news/new-research-asks-which-workers-are-paid-minimum-wage-in-ireland/

Who is most likely to earn the National Minimum Wage?

The research finds that 4.9 per cent of employees were in receipt of the minimum wage in 2014.

However, the percentage was substantially higher among particular sub-groups of workers. Specifically:

9 per cent of female employees were in receipt of the NMW, compared to 2.7 per cent of male employees.
At 9 per cent, the incidence of minimum wage pay among non-Irish nationals was over twice that of Irish employees (4.2 per cent).
Young people aged 18–29 are more likely than people in other age groups to be on the minimum wage (13.9 per cent).

https://www.esri.ie/pubs/BKMNEXT332.pdf

Geuze

Wanderer78 wrote: »

sorry i cant read that, can you explain it to me? thank you

It's a 53 page PDF.

Wanderer78

Geuze wrote: »

It's a 53 page PDF.

yea thats fair enough, unfortunately i cant read it, but thank you anyway