Disposable Income Gone

Geuze

Wanderer78 wrote: »

sorry i cant read that, can you explain it to me? thank you

a large proportion of my views on debt, particular private debt, comes from the work of people such as steve keen, michael hudson, david mcwilliams, yanis varoufakis, bill black, stephen kinsella, richard wolff, thomas piketty, ellen brown, joe stiglitz, ha-joon chang etc etc etc.

id have to agree with their views, private debt is now out of hand, its unsustainable, and is actually starting to effectively crush the future abilities of many in society, even well educated middle class people.

Table 12, median wealth

Gross = 172,500

Net = 102,600

Wanderer78

Geuze wrote: »

Table 12, median wealth

Gross = 172,500

Net = 102,600

and what is the significance of this?

Geuze

LirW wrote: »

That's the thing though I gladly pay high taxes if the service is right.
But plenty of roads are in a state, working people have to pay horrific childcare bills, the healthcare system is in a shameful condition, young people have trouble getting onto the road because of the ever increasing insurance and regulations what car they can't drive. For the average working joe, where is all of that service for the high income tax they pay from the laughably small threshold on?

Direct income taxes are low to average in Ireland.

Many earners pay little or no income tax.

The top MTR at 50% kicks in at a very low 35k approx, yes, but overall the average income taxes are not high.

LirW

That's the thing though, if you're earning a middle class income, have a house with a mortgage, maybe even kids, you're earning a wage above 35k a year. These people see very little from what they pay in tax. They still have to pay 50E for every GP visit, they don't qualify for subsidized childcare and so on.
Imo the threshold for the higher rate should kick in a good bit higher or the tax brackets need general overhauls with a pretty low threshold for tax-free income.

topper75

NinetyTwoTeam wrote: »

The economy has been stacked in such a way that if you don't come from a family with money, you're going to be scraping by all your life. Wages are dreadful, rents and house prices are sky high. Let me drink my mother flipping coffee so I can summon the will to live in this late stage capitalist dystopia, thanks.

Yes - we should ditch that dystopia and do Communism, where everybody gets their home.



Warning: heating may not always work, you may never upgrade, in any way, at any time ever, forever, who the hell do you think you are.

Wanderer78

topper75 wrote: »

Yes - we should ditch that dystopia and do Communism, where everybody gets their home.

Warning: heating may not always work, you may never upgrade, in any way, at any time ever, forever, who the hell do you think you are.

not only should we ditch this dystopia, theres significant evidence to show, the dystopia of neoliberalism and neoclassical theory should also be put in the same bin. all rubbish

Ronaldinho

Wanderer78 wrote: »

not only should we ditch this dystopia, theres significant evidence to show, the dystopia of neoliberalism and neoclassical theory should also be put in the same bin. all rubbish

Can you write us up a ;tldr on neoliberalism and neoclassical theory. In laymans' terms?

Crypto Coin

Crypto Coin wrote: »

Most company owners are not billionaires or anywhere close.

That's correct, but when people talk about the elite, they're referring to that small group of greedy people who continue to "earn" a percentage of the turnover that has not being reduced to reflect the astronomical income that it now generates.

There was a story about the founder of an on-line insurance company who reduced the size of his share of the turnover when the company went national and the turnover went into the millions. He could have been super rich, but just decided to be rich!

Hopefully the staff benefited from his gesture.

ArnieSilvia

topper75 wrote:

Yes - we should ditch that dystopia and do Communism, where everybody gets their home.

Frankly, you've no clue what you're talking about and I found your comparison offensive.
Did you live during post war era in a country destroyed by bombs, with thousands of orphans and disabled people. What you think they were meant to do? Build 3 bed semi's???? By whom and who was meant to pay? Industrial development took priority, the rest had to follow according to means in a context of isolation from world economy. There was no subsidy from US like Western Germany had after WW2 and so on. It all started from nothing. Did Germany paid reparations to anybody?

It's a stupid misconception of socialism and linking that with today's Left I hate with passion. Eastern European socialism was first and foremost directed at removal of class of owners in all levels of society, from big farmers to factory owners and landlords. It was all about contribution to society. If you didn't contribute, you were considered a parasite with no help whatsoever. No free ride, no dole spongers, let it be clear.

One outcome that people can't see here is the dignity - that one's career and life goals were now dependent on one's ability rather than only being able to live in powerty, being a mere servant on the owners land with nowhere to go (as it was the case in pre WW2 Poland for example). Socialism allowed a lot of people to get out of deep hole they would've been in otherwise, like my parents.

Fast forward, all didn't end up well but my parents had a great life during 1960's to 1980's and of course a nice house to show for it. One could wonder how come it worked for so long and then all of sudden didn't, something is telling me that there could have been external influence just in case this alternative lifestyle would inspire others in US etc so the higher classes would have to give up their wealth.

Lastly, I'll give you an idea how socialism worked in practice. There was a big owner in my home town, his land was taken away and leased out for next to nothing to people to build homes, including my parents. Irish equivalent is mansion with wall around it - plenty examples everywhere - and poor people living in their small houses driving their cars around the walls rather than across.

Wanderer78

Ronaldinho wrote: »

Can you write us up a ;tldr on neoliberalism and neoclassical theory. In laymans' terms?

highly unlikely, i would recommend the work of those i mentioned earlier, theyd certainly explain it far better than i would, particularly in text format

edit: could be what you re looking for

https://thejollyswagmen.com/new-blog/2017/6/6/episode-5-calling-the-crash-steve-keen

topper75

Wanderer78 wrote: »

not only should we ditch this dystopia, theres significant evidence to show, the dystopia of neoliberalism and neoclassical theory should also be put in the same bin. all rubbish

If I earn another euro, the taxman takes effectively 55c and leaves me with a a mere 45c.

Of course that is just an income thing. It gets worse. When I go to spend that 45c, I'll have to pay value added tax on the item most likely. :mad:

So this eh neo-liberalism yo speak of... any idea when it might be arriving. Just curious.

topper75

ArnieSilvia wrote: »

Frankly, you've no clue what you're talking about and I found your comparison offensive.
Did you live during post war era in a country destroyed by bombs, with thousands of orphans and disabled people. What you think they were meant to do? Build 3 bed semi's???? By whom and who was meant to pay? Industrial development took priority, the rest had to follow according to means in a context of isolation from world economy. There was no subsidy from US like Western Germany had after WW2 and so on. It all started from nothing. Did Germany paid reparations to anybody?

It's a stupid misconception of socialism and linking that with today's Left I hate with passion. Eastern European socialism was first and foremost directed at removal of class of owners in all levels of society, from big farmers to factory owners and landlords. It was all about contribution to society. If you didn't contribute, you were considered a parasite with no help whatsoever. No free ride, no dole spongers, let it be clear.

One outcome that people can't see here is the dignity - that one's career and life goals were now dependent on one's ability rather than only being able to live in powerty, being a mere servant on the owners land with nowhere to go (as it was the case in pre WW2 Poland for example). Socialism allowed a lot of people to get out of deep hole they would've been in otherwise, like my parents.

Fast forward, all didn't end up well but my parents had a great life during 1960's to 1980's and of course a nice house to show for it. One could wonder how come it worked for so long and then all of sudden didn't, something is telling me that there could have been external influence just in case this alternative lifestyle would inspire others in US etc so the higher classes would have to give up their wealth.

Lastly, I'll give you an idea how socialism worked in practice. There was a big owner in my home town, his land was taken away and leased out for next to nothing to people to build homes, including my parents. Irish equivalent is mansion with wall around it - plenty examples everywhere - and poor people living in their small houses driving their cars around the walls rather than across.

So it worked out well in Cuba then did it?
Or maybe Venezuela?
Vietnam a utopia?
Or may be it is nonsense and Marxism should be left in the rubbish tip where it belongs.
It it built on sham ideas that everybody is equal, and therefore equally deserving. That is why it failed again and again.

donegaLroad

This chart shows what the top 1% in Ireland earn a year..
The top 1% salaries have x 5 since 1975.

BPKS

I do feel sorry for youngsters these days.

It really does look like they have F-All disposable income.

Most of the 18-25 year old fellas I see walking around town cant even afford a pair of socks.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

garyskeepers

There is enough money out there for us all.

With the internet, there is so much opportunity for those willing to work... money grows on trees in the internet.

there should never again me such thing as "I have no money"

hurler32

In summary so It seems Ireland is flooded with cheap foreign labour which means anyone in the unskilled jobs is looking at minimum wage or close to it be that in building sites , factories , hotels or retail shops .
This sizeable group then have bugger all disposable income which has a big impact on the retail high street be that Murphy's food store , public house or restaurant . The bobs aren't there , it's a case of frozen burgers and a few tins from Lidl for a growing pool of people to exist ....

Pithythefool

garyskeepers wrote: »

There is enough money out there for us all.

With the internet, there is so much opportunity for those willing to work... money grows on trees in the internet.

there should never again me such thing as "I have no money"

Are you ten years old?

Pithythefool

hurler32 wrote: »

In summary so It seems Ireland is flooded with cheap foreign labour which means anyone in the unskilled jobs is looking at minimum wage or close to it be that in building sites , factories , hotels or retail shops .
This sizeable group then have bugger all disposable income which has a big impact on the retail high street be that Murphy's food store , public house or restaurant . The bobs aren't there , it's a case of frozen burgers and a few tins from Lidl for a growing pool of people to exist ....

Its not the only factor, but it has to be in the top 3 (but theyre all interlinked anyway). Massive problem that just cannot be touched because of the taboo at the moment.

Don't blame the foreigners, theyre only doing what you'd do if you could get away it.

100% of the blame goes on the small subset of irish people that blindly defend immigration no matter the cost, no matter the obvious. They are gone in the head, dangerous people, fanatics even.

garyskeepers

Pithythefool wrote: »

Are you ten years old?

no,,,

is that a complement?

nice_guy80

Pithythefool wrote: »

hurler32 wrote: »

In summary so It seems Ireland is flooded with cheap foreign labour which means anyone in the unskilled jobs is looking at minimum wage or close to it be that in building sites , factories , hotels or retail shops .
This sizeable group then have bugger all disposable income which has a big impact on the retail high street be that Murphy's food store , public house or restaurant . The bobs aren't there , it's a case of frozen burgers and a few tins from Lidl for a growing pool of people to exist ....

Its not the only factor, but it has to be in the top 3 (but theyre all interlinked anyway). Massive problem that just cannot be touched because of the taboo at the moment.

Don't blame the foreigners, theyre only doing what you'd do if you could get away it.

100% of the blame goes on the small subset of irish people that blindly defend immigration no matter the cost, no matter the obvious. They are gone in the head, dangerous people, fanatics even.

wha?

mariaalice

Its hard to conceptualise how it has changed. The big difference that I can see that we now have mass employment which often is not that well paid verses in the past mass unemployment but those who were employed did well.

It's as if we can't have both high employment and high incomes.

Was talking about this last night, my husband works with someone late fifties who is married to a nurse they live in an area where a house would cost between 500/600k today, not a hope a that a young couple with their jobs and income could buy there today yet 35 years ago it was entirely possible. Its the same with the house I had with my first husband.

There must be someone who can explain how that has occurred.

mariaalice

We seem to be transitioning to a US style economy with added welfare.

In a periphery area connected to where I work I'm witnessing whole sale privatising of a services that use to be direct employment that paid 17 euro and hour the privatised services pays 10 euro a hour and there is wholesale if and when contracts.

It would make a fascinating Phd for someone.

For the paranoid heads on here there are no 'foreigners' employed in the privatised services.

Its happening anyway not matter what.

The J Stands for Jay

draiochtanois wrote: »

Ok for that to be true you are earning a lot to begin with.

And you can make substantial pension contributions to reduce your tax burden.

You only need to be earning a bit less than the average wage to be paying higher rate tax.

The J Stands for Jay

mariaalice wrote: »

We seem to be transitioning to a US style economy with added welfare.

In a periphery area connected to where I work I'm witnessing whole sale privatising of a services that use to be direct employment that paid 17 euro and hour the privatised services pays 10 euro a hour and there is wholesale if and when contracts.

It would make a fascinating Phd for someone.

For the paranoid heads on here there are no 'foreigners' employed in the privatised services.

Its happening anyway not matter what.

If something is being done by paying employees 17 euro an hour, it will only be outsourced if it will cost less. The only way for the outsourcing company to charge less is to pay the staff they use less. The managers of the company that outsourced get a bonus for saving money, the managers at the outsourcing company get a bonus for bringing in new revenue streams, and 17 euro an hour jobs get replaced by 10 euro an hour jobs.

Wanderer78

mariaalice wrote:

There must be someone who can explain how that has occurred.

Yea, I know a few that explain it very well

mariaalice

McGaggs wrote: »

If something is being done by paying employees 17 euro an hour, it will only be outsourced if it will cost less. The only way for the outsourcing company to charge less is to pay the staff they use less. The managers of the company that outsourced get a bonus for saving money, the managers at the outsourcing company get a bonus for bringing in new revenue streams, and 17 euro an hour jobs get replaced by 10 euro an hour jobs.

If that is the case then the 7 euro just get recycled in to the job/admin/bonus of those managing the outsourcing of the services. The services does not in reality cost lest. All you are getting is non unionised more flexible employment.

mariaalice

McGaggs wrote: »

You only need to be earning a bit less than the average wage to be paying higher rate tax.

PAYE tax was huge in the 1980s and those in employment still purchased in areas that those in the same circumstances could not do today.

So its not the rate of PAYE nor is it the 'foreigners' it is something else happening.

The J Stands for Jay

mariaalice wrote: »

If that is the case then the 7 euro just get recycled in to the job/admin/bonus of those managing the outsourcing of the services. The services does not in reality cost lest. All you are getting is non unionised more flexible employment.

Outsourcing only really works when your organisation doesn't have the specialist skills needed. This low wage outsourcing never really works without the staff doing the job paying for it in some way.

The J Stands for Jay

mariaalice wrote: »

PAYE tax was huge in the 1980s and those in employment still purchased in areas that those in the same circumstances could not do today.

So its not the rate of PAYE nor is it the 'foreigners' it is something else happening.

It is something else, I was just correcting the notion that you need to be earning loads to pay tax at 40%.