Discovery 1x09 – "Into the Forest I Go" [** SPOILERS **]

Johnny Storm

Cork_exile;105280159
If you gave up after season 2 you made a mistake.

Yes, you should have given up after episode 1 .......

That's something I don't get - people are defending Enterprise saying, "Oh, wait until Season 3... it gets great!", but sh1t on the .. what.. 9 episodes we've had for Discovery, all of which have been better than the first episodes of any Trek franchise.

TV shows can no longer wait 2 - 3 seasons before getting good.

pixelburp

Deleted User wrote: »

If you gave up after season 2 you made a mistake.

Season 3 is more like today's story telling with a season long arc and 4 has great mini arcs, was just coming into its own

Season 3's going to have to be something friggin' stellar because I'm nearly at the end of season 2 & honestly it's straight-up awful scripted fiction, nevermind within the context of a TV show. It was lucky to have the Trek brand attached, as better shows than this got canned after 1 season. Just finished 'cogenitor' and holy god it's rare I've felt my intelligence insulted by a scripted drama; woeful stuff.

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

That's something I don't get - people are defending Enterprise saying, "Oh, wait until Season 3... it gets great!", but sh1t on the .. what.. 9 episodes we've had for Discovery, all of which have been better than the first episodes of any Trek franchise.

TV shows can no longer wait 2 - 3 seasons before getting good.

STD did surpass that very low bar of so far being the best first season of Trek (not counting TOS) but it's still pretty middling. And saying season 3&4 of Enterprise are good doesn't mean you can't say season 1&2 are terrible.

Evade

Evade wrote: »

STD did surpass that very low bar of so far being the best first season of Trek (not counting TOS) but it's still pretty middling. And saying season 3&4 of Enterprise are good doesn't mean you can't say season 1&2 are terrible.

Season 1 & 2 of Enterprise are awful.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

That's something I don't get - people are defending Enterprise saying, "Oh, wait until Season 3... it gets great!", but sh1t on the .. what.. 9 episodes we've had for Discovery, all of which have been better than the first episodes of any Trek franchise.

TV shows can no longer wait 2 - 3 seasons before getting good.

That was in 2001/2? We are in a golden age of TV right now, things have drastically changed for the better.
DS9 was terrible for first 2.5 seasons
Voyager (terrible throughout) only got acceptable in season 4?
TNG? Holy crap those first 2 seasons? Even by 80s standards they were very poor.

Stargate SG1 took time a good while to get up to speed.


The only space based show that I can think of which hit the ground running was BSG, and that was because R.D.Moore pretty much had free rein

"9 episodes we've had for Discovery, all of which have been better than the first episodes of any Trek franchise"
Exactly! Discovery is the odd one out of the Trek family.

After slogging through 2 seasons of Enterprise, you may as well watch it as it got good. And I am not "defending" Enterprise, just stating that it did get good and worth watching a good show.
(though IMHO it was always better than Voyager)

_Kaiser_

Evade wrote: »

What are the chances Lorca DASHed back to where the Buran was lost? He could easily have done something to Saru's readings to make it so he couldn't determine where they are or identify the wreckage.

I reckon Lorca has jumped them back to "our" Universe myself.

- It'd explain the more advanced tech seeing as the Terran Empire got its hands on the TOS USS Defiant in ENT's "In a Mirror, Darkly". They've had a long time to reverse-engineer and advance their own tech from it

- It'd explain aliens we've never seen - subjugated races that the Empire conquered and assimilated, as well as the alternate Klingon ships etc (though not so much the Klingons themselves). Also why the Klingons developed cloaking tech themselves rather than getting it from the Romulans in return for the D7 design.
There's the question why it's the USS Discovery/Shenzhou etc rather than ISS though

- It explains Burnham. In our Universe, Sarek never took her as his ward etc

- It's far easier for a civilised man (Lorca in this case) to act like a warlord than the reverse (TOS Mirror Kirk)

It allows them to address the continuity issues that have plagued this show and move forward towards the TOS we know.

Goodshape

LOLs at "continuity issues that have plagued this show".

They've plagued your mind, _Kaiser_. Most of the rest of us are just enjoying a new, modern, updated (finally), great Star Trek series

_Kaiser_

Goodshape wrote: »

LOLs at "continuity issues that have plagued this show".

They've plagued your mind, _Kaiser_. Most of the rest of us are just enjoying a new, modern, updated (finally), great Star Trek series

I think comments on sites outside of this thread/site would prove otherwise. You really don't like criticism of this show though do you?

pixelburp

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I think comments on sites outside of this thread/site would prove otherwise. You really don't like criticism of this show though do you?

I think 'plague' is a little hyperbolic though TBH when ultimately it comes down to the continuity of technological frippery; the changing the Klingons is probably the biggest switch-up for definite, but given Trek's constant tweaks to that species to begin with (not to mention attempting to crowbar in the blackface versions from the 60s by way of a virus), it feels a little redundant to rage against something already pretty flexible. I'm not a fan of it TBH, but the Space Vikings could yet reappear with some tweaking. We already saw a tiny bit of that with Kol; the sanctimony has lessened a little...

It's not like Discovery has done something really bizarre, like have Kirk as a cadet on the titular ship, or introduce the Borg (though hey, that could yet happen!); even Burnham's foster family doesn't immediately shatter canon given Spock's well documented reticence over his own personal life. It stretched credulity a little, but the story kinda worked & IMO ultimately added a new layer on the Sarek-Spock relationship.

Outside of this thread though... is that really going to be any better of a consensus, given actions such as the Score Bombing on Metacritic, and the usual howling vortices of Twitter echo chambers? Depending on where you look, you're unlikely to get a balanced opinion compared with here, where people have been pretty friendly & less factionalised.

There's nothing wrong with criticism over something that's earned - and lord knows Discovery has BIG problems, not least in its pretty ropey lead character - but I think it's a little exaggerated to say the show is 'plagued' by issues, as that kinda implies there's a rot at its core.

The_Valeyard

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I reckon Lorca has jumped them back to "our" Universe myself.

- It'd explain the more advanced tech seeing as the Terran Empire got its hands on the TOS USS Defiant in ENT's "In a Mirror, Darkly". They've had a long time to reverse-engineer and advance their own tech from it

- It'd explain aliens we've never seen - subjugated races that the Empire conquered and assimilated, as well as the alternate Klingon ships etc (though not so much the Klingons themselves). Also why the Klingons developed cloaking tech themselves rather than getting it from the Romulans in return for the D7 design.
There's the question why it's the USS Discovery/Shenzhou etc rather than ISS though

- It explains Burnham. In our Universe, Sarek never took her as his ward etc

- It's far easier for a civilised man (Lorca in this case) to act like a warlord than the reverse (TOS Mirror Kirk)

It allows them to address the continuity issues that have plagued this show and move forward towards the TOS we know.

Its a good theory, but few big flaws.

they mention the Federation, never once mention The Empire.
Alien races were treated with respect and not enslaved.

Its possible its another universe, but not the mirror universe that we know.


This is seen nowhere on the ship

Goodshape

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I think comments on sites outside of this thread/site would prove otherwise.

We've been reading different comment threads then.

You really don't like criticism of this show though do you?

I'm not losing any sleep over it . Your comments are tiring though. We get it, things have changed. You don't like that. Again. And again. And again. And again.

You're not really criticising the episode, or even the show on it's own merits, at this stage. Just the same warn out "but it's different " moaning.

It might be time to give up the ghost tbh.

_Kaiser_

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Its possible its another universe, but not the mirror universe that we know.

Could be.. If you watch the scene back where Lorca overrides the coordinates, there's a subtle change in the lighting to a blue tone as he says "let's go home". They've definitely jumped universe anyway I think.

I just can't see how the producers claims that this will all line-up with TOS work unless where they started from is an alternate universe - even if it's not the one we know - especially as Staments babbles on about the infinite permutations as he lies delirious on the floor.

It addresses all the complaints neatly as well.

I only find the critique of the cannon when it happens in these episode-specific ones and when it derails the topic at hand.

seamus

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I just can't see how the producers claims that this will all line-up with TOS work unless where they started from is an alternate universe - even if it's not the one we know - especially as Staments babbles on about the infinite permutations as he lies delirious on the floor.

Or...if ultimately Discovery ends up "lost" in a parallel universe, then the prime universe we know and love is basically unaffected. Starfleet will write off Discovery as a black ops experiment gone wrong and bury the technology and any knowledge of it.

Though that would require it becoming "Star Trek: Sliders". Which I'm 50:50 on; but it would certainly be an interesting divergence - a bit like Voyager except that every week is a "what if" scenario in the Alpha Quadrant.z

I really hope it doesn't go that way. I really like the path they're going down now.

pixelburp

I'm still holding onto my theory that the Spore Network is itself sapient / sentient and that alone will kill the project, thus maintaining continuity & the Federation's principles; it tallies with the real-world parallels already drawn with the tardigrades.

pixelburp

pixelburp wrote: »

I'm still holding onto my theory that the Spore Network is itself sapient / sentient and that alone will kill the project, thus maintaining continuity & the Federation's principles; it tallies with the real-world parallels already drawn with the tardigrades.

I'm not entirely sure about that. But if the only way to access is to use the tardigrades or to augment people, then surely that would be enough for it to die?

pixelburp

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not entirely sure about that. But if the only way to access is to use the tardigrades or to augment people, then surely that would be enough for it to die?

True, but if the network was itself alive, ala real-world mega-fungii, that removes the continuity wrinkle of a non-organic interface at some point in the Treks existing future.

IT will need to be killed on a total level. The Klingons/Romulans/Cardassians and Section 31 would not hesitate to use the tech.

I think that you will see the network destroyed and forgotten about (just like Federation Transwarp)

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

IT will need to be killed on a total level. The Klingons/Romulans/Cardassians and Section 31 would not hesitate to use the tech.

I think that you will see the network destroyed and forgotten about (just like Federation Transwarp)

Oh that'd be an interesting one. It would be a huge moral dilemma, considering an entire race of aliens relies on it for nutrition, essentially.

Inviere

Fantastic mini-finale. As a long term, fairly die-hard, conservative, Star Trek fan...Discovery has definitely won me over. I'd be among the last to admit it, but Star Trek as we knew it, was tired, old-fashioned, and pretty much had done all it could do. Yes it gave us amazing stories, brilliant actors, decades of rich canon, and everything else...but it had run its course.

Yes there is a lot more left to explore beyond the 24th century, and I'm not on the side that argues there's nothing left to explore post-Voyager. There's so much they could do with it, more so than they can with a prequel setting, so it's an argument I genuinely don't 'get'. Set Discovery in the 26th century and VERY little would need to be changed (plus you don't get the whinging about canon conflict). One thing did need to change though, and that's how Star Trek told its stories.

That said, my initial "jesus no, not ANOTHER prequel" fears have been laid to rest. I think the writers have done a fairly exceptional job given the parameters, and Burnham is just brilliantly acted, and as a protagonist, has completely hooked me in. I'm going to rewatch the eps we have so far over the Christmas, as there's so much to them than a lot can be missed on first glance.

fxotoole

Maybe at the end of the season, Discovery's only hope of making it back to our universe is to ramp up the power on the spore drive, such that it brings them back home, but destroys the mycelial network in the process. Thereby presenting the ethical dilemma of discovery making it home, but destroying the tardigrades food supply in the process of doing so

khaldrogo

I've watched ever episode but I don't know what you are talking about in regards to 'the real lorca' or 'tyler is voq'

What is voq. Why is there a fake lorca?

Mitch Connor

khaldrogo wrote: »

I've watched ever episode but I don't know what you are talking about in regards to 'the real lorca' or 'tyler is voq'

What is voq. Why is there a fake lorca?

There is a theory that Lorca is from a mirror universe.

There is a theory that Tyler is the albino Klingon from earlier in the season that the female one told would have to 'sacrifice everything' to achieve his dreams.

khaldrogo

Mitch Connor wrote:

There is a theory that Tyler is the albino Klingon from earlier in the season that the female one told would have to 'sacrifice everything' to achieve his dreams.

I did not know that theory but for me nothing I've seen would suggest that. I think Tyler was probably reprogrammed in some way through the torture and it will come up later

Mitch Connor wrote:

There is a theory that Lorca is from a mirror universe.

I don't recall seeing anything in the series to suggest that. Obviously he is up to something but I think he's just mad

AMKC

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Its a good theory, but few big flaws.

they mention the Federation, never once mention The Empire.
Alien races were treated with respect and not enslaved.

Its possible its another universe, but not the mirror universe that we know.


This is seen nowhere on the ship

Its possible its another universe, but not the mirror universe that we know.

That's what I think too. Its certainly not in the Prime Universe or even the Mirror Universe that we know. I think it is a different Mirror Universe one where there is this spore network, different aliens,the Klingons look different and that the Starfleet in this universe is different but not bad like in the other Mirror Universe.

AMKC

AMKC wrote: »

Its possible its another universe, but not the mirror universe that we know.

That's what I think too. Its certainly not in the Prime Universe or even the Mirror Universe that we know. I think it is a different Mirror Universe one where there is this spore network, different aliens,the Klingons look different and that the Starfleet in this universe is different but not bad like in the other Mirror Universe.

Honestly that would suck. Pure hedging bets and lacking confidence in the process

gloobag

Probably not going to happen, but what if they're kinda following through with Fuller's original idea of this being an anthology show and the Discovery has jumped to a different time period?

We already know that Stammets can exist outside of normal space/time and has seen things from alternate timelines/futures (Captain Tilly). So it would not be much of a leap to assume that a failed spore jump could displace them in time.

It would certainly open up a lot of possibilities.

fxotoole

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Honestly that would suck. Pure hedging bets and lacking confidence in the process

In what sense?