Louise O'Neill on manned mission to Mars: "Why not go to Venus?" (MOD Warning post 1)

Sile Na Gig

Omackeral wrote: »

Sile Na Gig wrote: »

I think one thing that you can take away from LON’s writing is that both boys and girls are getting the wrong messages.

It's nearly always put across though that our young men need consent classes. That's not fair. Everyone or no-one.

Oh my goodness, girls definitely need consent classes too...and the content of both needs to match up, or better yet be delivered together.

LLMMLL

givyjoe wrote: »

Logic fail there Louise.. yesterday you were saying that labeling posts as low intelligence was not a personal attack.. but today someone labeling your posts as rubbish is? :pac:

Klaz has already said he regretted using those words, calling one irksome troll that doesn't mean he thinks the same of all women.

Klaz has always presented himself as a bastion of respect and reason.

Now we see the reality is different.

RabbleRouser2k

Sile Na Gig wrote: »

I agree that parents have to be responsible and able to talk to their kids, but there’s value in having an open non judgmental space for discussion with your peers as well. It helps to cut through the bs misinformation and allows them to see and hear each other. There are too many adults- parents and teachers- shying away from having difficult conversations because they’re embarrassed. In the vacuum the kids learn from porn which isn’t going to help them form real loving relationships with real people.

Sile Na Gig wrote: »

We don’t go to ET but a school with a similar philosophy. Sex ed is done on a continuum from kindergarten- respect yourself, respect others, get comfortable with articulating your needs and listening to the needs of others. It’s all very open with lots of opportunities to ask questions. I do find that a lot depends on the teacher. One of my kids teachers wasn’t comfortable with talking about sex with the class (he’s gay and I think paranoid about what some parents sadly might think about him having those conversations) so he did a swop with another teacher. They do that all the time though- the teacher that is really good at music takes his guitar to another class and that class’ teacher does painting with his class. They play to their individual strengths.

So...porn is a scapegoat because the parents are too lazy/ embarassed to talk about it? (Also, the gay teacher example shows how these ET schools are not exactly 'progressive' if the gay teacher is paranoid-seems more close minded than anything).

Educate them we're born gay, straight or bi, amongst others, and move on.

My experience of religious sex education was to be taught abstinence, never being taught how to use contraception, as a girl the concept of expecting and achieving pleasure was completely not mentioned. So I’d rather not have that for my kids. For all I know, Christian schools might have done a 180 in the last 30 year’s but I’m not going to risk it.

Different experience entirely to mine-respect yourself, sure-that was the main one. Be safe was something else. Again, much of this talk has to come from parents. They're the people we learn from the most-so why skip this aspect.

Deleted User wrote: »

Porn is an easy scapegoat. Porn doesn't even try to suggest a connection with real life, and most kids are smart enough to pick up on that. I can't imagine they're more gullible or foolish than I was at that age.

There is too much focus on tearing down the Church in this country. I'm not in the least bit religious, but for many people like myself, the Church schools provided quality education with a decent set of morals to base our growth on.

I'd be much more worried what they learn in films or tv tbh. Porn is aimed at 18 and ups for a reason. On the other hand films tell us to think one way, and have this 'prescribed' mentality.
Or even soap operas have far more disturbing plotlines compared to porn or film.

givyjoe

LLMMLL wrote: »

Klaz has always presented himself as a bastion of respect and reason.

Now we see the reality is different.

Yes, but is also human.. says something he regrets and later admits as much . Another admirable trait.

I totally agree.

Grayson

Omackeral wrote: »

That argument has been done and been shown up already umpteen times. The whole country was absolutely appalled at that. That's why it became a talking point at all. That behavior was roundly rejected by everyone I've spoken to and by everyone I've seen comment on it. It's not an instance of rape culture, it's a group of fcuking backward troglodytes being backward troglodytes.

Yes it is an instance. Now if you read the rest of my post you'll see that I made clear it doesn't mean everyone in the country is a rapist.

However you also can't say that the whole country was appalled. That's a sweeping statement that is unprovable.
How is it that on one hand you're complaining about people saying stuff about all men (when they never said it) yet you're willing to make a statement about the whole country. You can actually say that every single person in the country thought that, without realizing the irony in your statement.




Although on a separate note it looks like all the sexual assault stats may be incorrect.

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/sex-crime-reporting-at-crisis-14535732

It may be the the number of assaults are down or it may just be that the number reporting assaults is down. Either way it's horrible because without correct figures you can't formulate a response to it.

Grayson

Omackeral wrote: »

It's nearly always put across though that our young men need consent classes. That's not fair. Everyone or no-one.

I saw it in an article last week as everyone needs to know how to seek consent and how to give/refuse consent. The whole point is to avoid misunderstandings and educate youngsters on how to communicate.

I think that kind of consent class is the one that we could both agree on.

LLMMLL

givyjoe wrote: »

Yes, but is also human...

Much to my surprise.

Omackeral

Sile Na Gig wrote: »

Oh my goodness, girls definitely need consent classes too...and the content of both needs to match up, or better yet be delivered together.

Well I wouldn't have a problem with this at all to be honest.

Grayson

py2006 wrote: »

Well then Culture is the wrong word. Culture suggests prevalence in our society. An acceptance as a norm. It clearly isn't.

It is clearly a provocative term that is going to offend and anger people. But I don't think LON is out to do that, I think she actually believes it exists.

You'd be ok with me saying traveller culture even though travellers are a small minority.

The phrase rape culture originated in the 70's. It was used to describe people who thought that it was a minor crime or that men had a right to sex.
If you think of it within that time you might find it easier to accept.

We would both agree that there are some horrible attitudes that existed up the 60's and 70's. These existed with regard to sex, rape, sexuality etc..We would both agree that they are nearly gone. However we would both agree that they aren't quite gone. There's still some people who have those attitudes.

The horrible thing about the kerry rape case was that those men lined up to shake the rapists hand. The great thing is that the majority of the country were vocal in their condemnation.

Attitudes like that one in Kerry are dying off. But it'd be premature to say that they're dead.

Omackeral

Grayson wrote: »

Yes it is an instance. Now if you read the rest of my post you'll see that I made clear it doesn't mean everyone in the country is a rapist.

However you also can't say that the whole country was appalled. That's a sweeping statement that is unprovable.
How is it that on one hand you're complaining about people saying stuff about all men (when they never said it) yet you're willing to make a statement about the whole country. You can actually say that every single person in the country thought that, without realizing the irony in your statement.

Jesus you are a pedantic one Grayson. I'll re-tool my statement by saying everyone I spoke to or everything I've read online about it was unanimous in it's message, it was appalling. Obviously I can't interview the whole country but I'm taking my experience of 100% of people I've heard on it being disgusted, as well as the hundreds I've heard on here having the same experience. Usually, you'll get dissenters on most issues but this was one where it was hard to come by anyone thinking the behaviour of those hillbillies was acceptable.

silverharp

Grayson wrote: »

You'd be ok with me saying traveller culture even though travellers are a small minority.

The phrase rape culture originated in the 70's. It was used to describe people who thought that it was a minor crime or that men had a right to sex.
If you think of it within that time you might find it easier to accept.

That doesn't make sense, You cant use the same word to describe what is the majority culture of a distinct minority and what a small minority do in a larger population. Rape culture has no meaning apart from sounding provocative

garbo speaks

Grayson wrote: »

I think that kind of consent class is the one that we could both agree on.

No right-minded parent would ever let their son attend one of those feminazi brainwashing scams.

py2006

Grayson wrote: »

You'd be ok with me saying traveller culture even though travellers are a small minority.

The phrase rape culture originated in the 70's. It was used to describe people who thought that it was a minor crime or that men had a right to sex.
If you think of it within that time you might find it easier to accept.

Ah now come on, that is totally different.

Travellers have their own culture and travellers are a minority. It is not the same as saying Ireland is a Traveller Culture.

I could be wrong, but doesn't the term, 'rape culture', come from certain prisons in the US that actually has such a culture?

Grayson

silverharp wrote: »

That doesn't make sense, You cant use the same word to describe what is the majority culture of a distinct minority and what a small minority do in a larger population. Rape culture has no meaning apart from sounding provocative

Thanks for completely ignoring the rest of my post and my previous post.

yes it has a meaning. Google it you'll find it's a phrase that is commonly used by anthropologists, sociologists and of course feminists.
It's used to describe particular attitudes.

You can't just decide that it doesn't have any meaning when it has an established meaning.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

Yeah calling my posts rubbish isn't a personal insult at all.

Well, no. Your post isn't you. Obviously.

And calling LON a bitch. You're so respectful of women.

So... I insulted one woman. A woman who writes about men in an insulting fashion. Gosh! I'm terrible. As for you, I have no idea what gender you are, although I've yet to insult you directly. Not to worry though... I'm sure that will happen sooner or later.

But then, you've shown yourself incapable of respecting either posters here or men in general through your posts, so I guess I'm just picking up bad habit from you.

Omackeral

Grayson wrote: »

You can't just decide that it doesn't have any meaning when it has an established meaning.

It does, it's just not really relevant in this country today. Rape culture exists in US prisons, in Central American gangs, in some caste divided countries and as a tool of war. I don't think it's fair to say that living in Ireland in 2018 is living in a rape culture. I know you didn't say that specifically, O'Neill has.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

Klaz has always presented himself as a bastion of respect and reason.

Now we see the reality is different.

Err... no I haven't. I've always sought to use logical thinking in my posts, and to try to be reasonable. But I've never presented myself as anything, knowing full well I have no control over how people perceive me.

The long-time posters have seen me debate pretty much everything... and I'm hardly a Bastion of anything.

Grayson

py2006 wrote: »

Ah now come on, that is totally different. It is not the same as saying Ireland is a Traveller Culture.

I could be wrong, but doesn't the term, 'rape culture', come from certain prisons in the US that actually has such a culture?

You're right that there is a prison connection but it wasn't created then. It was created in the 70's to describe the attitude of some men towards women. It's confusing because it describes the negative environment and/or the attitudes that exist.

part of rape culture is the fact that a man is less likely to report a rape than a woman. That's because men have these ideas of masculinity that involve not showing weakness.
That attitude means the man is less likely to seek help and therefore makes the effects of the assault worse. So it's a societal attitude that contributes to making rapes worse and is part of the culture surrounding rape.

Edit to add: I had in my mind the whole time to say that the prison connection is that rape culture is used to describe certain facets of prison culture in the US.

py2006

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, no. Your post isn't you. Obviously.

But then, you've shown yourself incapable of respecting either posters here or men in general through your posts, so I guess I'm just picking up bad habit from you.

Don't forget you were called a 'Saddo' and your posts 'lack intelligence'.

Perhaps even a misogynist, or was that the other one that called us all that?

Sile Na Gig

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

So...porn is a scapegoat because the parents are too lazy/ embarassed to talk about it? (Also, the gay teacher example shows how these ET schools are not exactly 'progressive' if the gay teacher is paranoid-seems more close minded than anything).

Educate them we're born gay, straight or bi, amongst others, and move on.

My experience of religious sex education was to be taught abstinence, never being taught how to use contraception, as a girl the concept of expecting and achieving pleasure was completely not mentioned. So I’d rather not have that for my kids. For all I know, Christian schools might have done a 180 in the last 30 year’s but I’m not going to risk it.

Different experience entirely to mine-respect yourself, sure-that was the main one. Be safe was something else. Again, much of this talk has to come from parents. They're the people we learn from the most-so why skip this aspect.

Deleted User wrote: »

Porn is an easy scapegoat. Porn doesn't even try to suggest a connection with real life, and most kids are smart enough to pick up on that. I can't imagine they're more gullible or foolish than I was at that age.

There is too much focus on tearing down the Church in this country. I'm not in the least bit religious, but for many people like myself, the Church schools provided quality education with a decent set of morals to base our growth on.

I'd be much more worried what they learn in films or tv tbh. Porn is aimed at 18 and ups for a reason. On the other hand films tell us to think one way, and have this 'prescribed' mentality.
Or even soap operas have far more disturbing plotlines compared to porn or film.

My point is that most media- soaps, movies, porn- are there to entertain, not educate. This needs to be taken on by parents first but should be supported in schools as well. The problem about leaving it solely up to the parents is that there will always be a few who have their heads in the sand about it (fun times at the parent meetings with this crowd) and it’s not fair on those kids to get nothing and be forced to make do with shytty media for their sex ed. Those kids’ ignorance make my kids less safe. Better to give them a space at school to talk about it.

The reticence on the part of the gay teacher was all from him. I doubt any of the parents would give a shyte. But the faculty weren’t going to force him to deliver content that he was uncomfortable with. That’s hardly going to be helpful to the kids. They do talk about the various sexual orientations and how it’s not necessarily a set thing, especially when you’re just becoming sexual.

Grayson

Omackeral wrote: »

It does, it's just not really relevant in this country today. Rape culture exists in US prisons, in Central American gangs, in some caste divided countries and as a tool of war. I don't think it's fair to say that living in Ireland in 2018 is living in a rape culture. I know you didn't say that specifically, O'Neill has.

I replied in another post since you posted this to say that it's about the attitudes that surround rape not just the prevalence of rape itself.

If it was just about saying that rape is widespread and acceptable, I'd be agreeing with you 100%. This isn't like, for example, India at the moment where rape is far, far more common than it is here.

If it comes to that I think we can agree completely.

givyjoe

Grayson wrote: »

You're right that there is a prison connection but it wasn't created then. It was created in the 70's to describe the attitude of some men towards women. It's confusing because it describes the negative environment and/or the attitudes that exist.

part of rape culture is the fact that a man is less likely to report a rape than a woman. That's because men have these ideas of masculinity that involve not showing weakness.
That attitude means the man is less likely to seek help and therefore makes the effects of the assault worse. So it's a societal attitude that contributes to making rapes worse and is part of the culture surrounding rape.

This is literally taken off wiki, so there is possibly/probably a better definition somewhere else, but perhaps a starting point is to define a little better what everyone is debating.. because right now, it really isn't clear.

"...Behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, slut-shaming, sexual objectification, trivializing rape, denial of widespread rape, refusing to acknowledge the harm caused by some forms of sexual violence, or some combination of these.."

silverharp

Grayson wrote: »

Thanks for completely ignoring the rest of my post and my previous post.


yes it has a meaning. Google it you'll find it's a phrase that is commonly used by anthropologists, sociologists and of course feminists.
It's used to describe particular attitudes.

You can't just decide that it doesn't have any meaning when it has an established meaning.

It takes on its own meaning in the public sphere, but its not clear what it is. There is no current rape culture, whereas saying there is a drink culture does mean something even if its a little vague.
All I can see is that Feminists imply that it means that there are currently pro rape supporting attitudes within lots of society and if you disagree with feminists you are part of it.

D'ye reckon Louise does the ironing for her ma?

Sile Na Gig

Sile Na Gig wrote: »

My point is that most media- soaps, movies, porn- are there to entertain, not educate.

I'm sorry but that's splitting hairs. Children learn things from TV all the time that aren't true but expect to be real. Who decides the difference between educating and entertaining? Adults. The Child sees it as being entertainment from start to finish, at least until our modern education system teaches children to hate/fear learning.

This needs to be taken on by parents first but should be supported in schools as well. The problem about leaving it solely up to the parents is that there will always be a few who have their heads in the sand about it (fun times at the parent meetings with this crowd) and it’s not fair on those kids to get nothing and be forced to make do with shytty media for their sex ed. Those kids’ ignorance make my kids less safe. Better to give them a space at school to talk about it.

Better to have Parenting classes for prospective parents. Your belief to leave it to the schools has been done in the US where teachers spend more time doing non-teaching activities than they do actual teaching. Teachers are deserting from teaching as a profession because the demands for them to do so many other duties beyond what they studied to do. And they're held responsible for the effectiveness of these other duties.

TBH Sex education is best done by parents simply because it removes the gender issues. Do you expect a male teacher to explain sex to a female student? What if that student misunderstands or misinterprets what that teacher said, and goes to her parents claiming harassment or innuendo?

The point is that our society is moving to the point where there are clear risks for adults in talking to children/teens about certain subjects. Better that the parents together educate their children.

The reticence on the part of the gay teacher was all from him. I doubt any of the parents would give a shyte. But the faculty weren’t going to force him to deliver content that he was uncomfortable with. That’s hardly going to be helpful to the kids. They do talk about the various sexual orientations and how it’s not necessarily a set thing, especially when you’re just becoming sexual.

But you can't say for certain how other parents feel about it. I do know two Gay male teachers who were asked to leave their schools when their orientation came to light. They weren't forced to leave because that would have been illegal but they were encouraged all the same, and did leave in the end because of the attitudes of parents at meetings.

py2006

py2006 wrote: »

Don't forget you were called a 'Saddo' and your posts 'lack intelligence'.

Perhaps even a misogynist, or was that the other one that called us all that?

Oh, I missed the Saddo one.

Nah. The misogynist was so vague it could have been for any of us.

Sile Na Gig

Deleted User wrote: »

Sile Na Gig wrote: »

My point is that most media- soaps, movies, porn- are there to entertain, not educate.

I'm sorry but that's splitting hairs. Children learn things from TV all the time that aren't true but expect to be real. Who decides the difference between educating and entertaining? Adults. The Child sees it as being entertainment from start to finish, at least until our modern education system teaches children to hate/fear learning.

This needs to be taken on by parents first but should be supported in schools as well. The problem about leaving it solely up to the parents is that there will always be a few who have their heads in the sand about it (fun times at the parent meetings with this crowd) and it’s not fair on those kids to get nothing and be forced to make do with shytty media for their sex ed. Those kids’ ignorance make my kids less safe. Better to give them a space at school to talk about it.

Better to have Parenting classes for prospective parents. Your belief to leave it to the schools has been done in the US where teachers spend more time doing non-teaching activities than they do actual teaching. Teachers are deserting from teaching as a profession because the demands for them to do so many other duties beyond what they studied to do. And they're held responsible for the effectiveness of these other duties.

TBH Sex education is best done by parents simply because it removes the gender issues. Do you expect a male teacher to explain sex to a female student? What if that student misunderstands or misinterprets what that teacher said, and goes to her parents claiming harassment or innuendo?

The point is that our society is moving to the point where there are clear risks for adults in talking to children/teens about certain subjects. Better that the parents together educate their children.

The reticence on the part of the gay teacher was all from him. I doubt any of the parents would give a shyte. But the faculty weren’t going to force him to deliver content that he was uncomfortable with. That’s hardly going to be helpful to the kids. They do talk about the various sexual orientations and how it’s not necessarily a set thing, especially when you’re just becoming sexual.

But you can't say for certain how other parents feel about it. I do know two Gay male teachers who were asked to leave their schools when their orientation came to light. They weren't forced to leave because that would have been illegal but they were encouraged all the same, and did leave in the end because of the attitudes of parents at meetings.

I think that we’re actually on the same page. I 100% agree that parents should be educating their kids about this stuff, and not just a one off ‘talk’ but a constant dialogue.

I know from having the same infuriating conversations with a minority of other parents that there are some who want to put it on the long finger because they feel like their kids are too young and innocent, even some who say they shouldn’t have information until they’re ready to start having sex...at age 18! For these kids if they don’t get anything at school and they don’t get anything at home all they will get is what they see in media and that’s not good enough. So better to have something at school as well. In practice this mostly looks like a discussion group where kids are free to bring stuff up and get honest answers. It helps them to get over the embarrassment of talking about this stuff openly.

We have two openly gay teachers at our school. One is married. No one cares, or at least if they do they keep their bigotry to themselves.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well, no. Your post isn't you. Obviously.



So... I insulted one woman. A woman who writes about men in an insulting fashion. Gosh! I'm terrible. As for you, I have no idea what gender you are, although I've yet to insult you directly. Not to worry though... I'm sure that will happen sooner or later.

But then, you've shown yourself incapable of respecting either posters here or men in general through your posts, so I guess I'm just picking up bad habit from you.

I forgot you only directly insult someone when they're not around to respond.

LLMMLL

py2006 wrote: »

Don't forget you were called a 'Saddo' and your posts 'lack intelligence'.

Perhaps even a misogynist, or was that the other one that called us all that?

Actually I didn't say either of those things about klaz. Is that you givyjoe?

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

I forgot you only directly insult someone when they're not around to respond.

Strange... you insulted a rather large percentage of men in Ireland by claiming they harassed women (without any proof).... They don't seem to be in here to defend themselves from your statements.

I insulted one woman by calling her a bitch, which I've since apologised for when put on the spot about it.

Hmm.... You've, on multiple posts insulted posters in this thread, me personally on two threads, and made insulting remarks about men within a large but variable percentage. Any apologies for any of that? Yes, you said you might have crossed the line a little on one observation about me.

Seems I have some catching up to do if I want to be like you. And, definitely :rolleyes: