Why there are so many junkies (chavs/knackers)in Dublin?

Tony EH

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

I saw the OP mentioned 'Bad Welfare' as a possible reason. Interestingly I was told that one of the reasons that San Fran had such a similar issue was because social welfare was pretty good there compared to other parts of the US.

Nope. It's because it's mild.

When I was there on business a few years ago I was utterly shocked (and little does that to me these days) by the sheer amount of homeless folk in the city. Everywhere, and I do mean everywhere. Some dangerous characters too.

They come from all over, usually to try and get to LA first and then they're often moved on from there and find themselves in San Francisco and the like.

I had a conversation with an interesting fella who works with them, in soup kitchens and whatnot when I was there. The weather's the main draw. Because, while you can live most of the year round in NYC on $1 pizza and do ok, a New York winter will kill you, especially is f it's like the ones they've seen over the past few years.

In SF, you might get the odd chilly morning as the fog rolls in, but you probably won't wake up covered in 2/3 ft of snowfall.

zetalambda

Flies on shit.

mikemac2

RTÉ Radio One have a podcast show called Documentaries on one. All sorts of random topics and many were recorded decades ago

In 1975 a young bould Pat Kenny interviewed four lads from Foley Street. Young lads 12 - 15 years old. All in and out of St Pats or Clonmel or other young offenders places

Blatantly bragging how they broke into cars or shops but never locals houses, honour among thieves....

We got no money mister Kenny, we rob from the rich fellas and break into their cars, sure they’d don’t need it mister Kenny is the gist

RTÉ returned around 1987, one lad became a brickie fair play, one was dead from drugs and the other two got corpo housing, had 6-7 kids, never lasted in any job and it was society’s fault they hadn’t held a steady job in 12 years

I thought it was an interesting show. Anyway it just confirms what you already know, the youngsters you see out robbing and dealing and hanging around.......members of their family has likely been at it for generations

Johngoose

Cork is turning into a bit of a hole now too.City centre filled with scumbags, beggars and feral children.Little or no sign of guards or of them doing anything about it.

dd972

Johngoose wrote: »

Cork is turning into a bit of a hole now too.City centre filled with scumbags, beggars and feral children.Little or no sign of guards or of them doing anything about it.

Do they look down their noses at anyone not from Cork as well? :pac: (sorry, couldn't resist), bit surprising that, there is a bit of an underbelly to Cork but it seems well avoidable from all my visits there, not as obvious as such things are in Dublin or Limerick.

nilescraneo

Dublin has a small city area in comparison to other cities, with a concentration of homeless services, hostels, methadone clinics, needle exchanges etc located within it's environs. So addicts are a lot more noticeable and congregate in bigger groups.

As for what can be done, the suggestions of "zero tolerance" and all that cop show bravado doesn't work and won't work. I work indirectly in this area, and the two things that I think would make a difference are: 1. Extremely early intervention for children who begin acting out in school, ie, social worker visits child's home to assess what the underlying problem might be, and what support parents might require. Fund those supports adequately, as if you can divert that child from coming into contact with the justice system as an adult you will be saving huge money in the long run on Garda time, prison, legal aid etc.

The second would be, on a pilot basis, to at least attempt to treat drug addiction as a medical/psychological problem and not a criminal justice one. When the chief super of Store Street Garda station openly admits that he can't arrest his way out of a medical problem, but has no other tools available to him, it's time for a bloody change!

NIMAN

Tony EH wrote: »

Have you been to SF recently?

EVERY street corner littered with homeless people, either mental or off their face.

It's a diabolical city.

... and proof that Dublin is no worse than most other major cities.

Some people seem to think only Irish has these social issues.

The grass isn't always greener.

zetalambda

NIMAN wrote: »

... and proof that Dublin is no worse than most other major cities.

Some people seem to think only Irish has these social issues.

The grass isn't always greener.

Except Dublin isn't a major city (unless you're talking in an Irish context) and comparing San Francisco to Dublin is like comparing Dublin to Waterford.

wakka12

zetalambda wrote: »

Except Dublin isn't a major city (unless you're talking in an Irish context) and comparing San Francisco to Dublin is like comparing Dublin to Waterford.

Dublin is pretty big. Its roughly half the size of san fransisoc in terms of population ,600k in central city area, nearly 1.5 million people in city and suburban area combined. Almost 2 million if you include metro area which includes places like kildare meath wicklow

SF had 800,000 in the city, 4.5 million metro area which includes distant counties and towns outside san fransico, similar to how meath kildare are in our 'metro'dublin area

Bonniedog

Prune Tracy wrote: »

"It happens in America too" is a bit overly defensive - I don't think the opening poster has disputed that, but they're asking about Dublin.

I reckon it's due to a policing vacuum, and I know that some major American cities have needle parks for addicts to hang out in - there aren't such places in Dublin though.

New York was going down the plug hole until the NYPD and mayor decided enough was enough. It is now relatively one of safest big cities in the world. Dublin is run by shower of half wits who are either incompetent or couldn't care less. I don't blame the cops as there was one major operation against street dealers that led to almost no jail time.

CucaFace

As someone who works around Mountjoy Square for the last 5 years i always felt the reputation was worse then the reality. The junkies are usually in their own worlds and don't do too much to intimidate, but it just looks so bad. Its the young scumbags aged 14 to 18 that are the ones that you have to worry about.

BUT in the last 8 weeks I've noticed a huge increase in crime and attacks in the city centre. I have heard of 8 international students in the last few weeks being mugged, and some of them in a violent way (not just the the usual snatch the phone from behind and run away type of mugging). Also random assaults are increasing in the city centre recently.

We really need to start building new prisons in this country as even if the Guards catch them, they know they will be out on the streets in a few hours so its pointless for the guards to even try and do their jobs.

Also, why do we just not have a CC in operation all over the city? I mean if you have nothing to hide, what would be the issue with this? Then anyone doing these things could be easily traced back to their holes to be arrested at a later time. I mean this would surely deter some of these scumbags....

Bonniedog

Dublin now has a dangerous combination of a police force which is either uninterested or powerless; a judiciary that allows utter scum to run up dozens of serious convictions before being sent to prison; a legal profession that exists parasitically on the tax payer by defending the scum, and a majority on city council who consider the scum as "victims of capitalism." We are headed for social disaster.

Dublin Spur

nilescraneo wrote: »

As for what can be done, the suggestions of "zero tolerance" and all that cop show bravado doesn't work and won't work.

it worked in Manhattan in fairness

it might have moved the problem elsewhere but at least tourists and shoppers were safe and the main thoroughfares were clean

Bonniedog

Dublin Spur wrote: »

it worked in Manhattan in fairness

it might have moved the problem elsewhere but at least tourists and shoppers were safe and the main thoroughfares were clean

More importantly the people who live in the Bronx and Brooklyn and elsewhere are safer. NY was going down the tubes in late 80s. Same as here now, you could run up a long list of convictions before seeing Rikers Island. Now they throw the book at them, or did until de Blasio got elected on whinge about "police oppression" and all that nonsense. Lefties like to complain about how many people are locked up, but surely better to have them locked up than mugging and raping?

alastair

Bonniedog wrote: »

More importantly the people who live in the Bronx and Brooklyn and elsewhere are safer. NY was going down the tubes in late 80s. Same as here now, you could run up a long list of convictions before seeing Rikers Island. Now they throw the book at them, or did until de Blasio got elected on whinge about "police oppression" and all that nonsense. Lefties like to complain about how many people are locked up, but surely better to have them locked up than mugging and raping?

The rate of imprisonment in NYC between 1990 and 2009 went DOWN by 28 percent. The number of NYC residents in jail more than halved between 1996 and 2016. So whatever was reducing crime in NYC, it wasn’t increased levels of incarceration. Perhaps before wielding that broad brush, you might check some elementary facts?

Bonniedog

I think you might. Where did you get those stats?

Rate of incarceration in NY rose from 304 per 100,000 in 1990 to 370 in 1995. It was that period that saw the most dramatic decrease in crime in NY.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/1990%20Rate%20and%20Rank%20of%20Crime%20and%20Imprisionment%20by%20US%20States.html

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/1995%20Rate%20and%20Rank%20of%20Crime%20and%20Imprisonment%20by%20US%20States.html


Stop making things up! Only a fkn idiot believes that not locking scum up decreases crime levels.

The more recent decrease is because crime levels fell from something near 900 murders a year in NY in late 80s/early 90s to around a third of that.

alastair

Bonniedog wrote: »

I think you might. Where did you get those stats?

Rate of incarceration in NY rose from 304 per 100,000 in 1990 to 370 in 1995. It was that period that saw the most dramatic decrease in crime in NY.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/1990%20Rate%20and%20Rank%20of%20Crime%20and%20Imprisionment%20by%20US%20States.html

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/1995%20Rate%20and%20Rank%20of%20Crime%20and%20Imprisonment%20by%20US%20States.html


Stop making things up! Only a fkn idiot believes that not locking scum up decreases crime levels.

The more recent decrease is because crime levels fell from something near 900 murders a year in NY in late 80s/early 90s to around a third of that.

Only a, eh, fkn idiot can’t discern the difference between NYC and New York State. The figures I posted are correct for NYC - the place under discussion.

https://sites.hks.harvard.edu/ocpa/cms/files/criminal-justice/research-publications/fsr2901_04_greeneschiraldi.pdf

Lux23

alastair wrote: »

The rate of imprisonment in NYC between 1990 and 2009 went DOWN by 28 percent. The number of NYC residents in jail more than halved between 1996 and 2016. So whatever was reducing crime in NYC, it wasn’t increased levels of incarceration. Perhaps before wielding that broad brush, you might check some elementary facts?

There is a theory that the reduced birthrate resulted in less crime. Abortion was legalised in 1973, more women that couldn't or didn't want to have children opted for terminations and twenty years later all those unwanted children weren't around to rob little old ladies. So maybe we will see the same in twenty years if we vote to repeal.

Dublin Spur

But we can all agree than Manhattan was cleaned up in the 90s/00s ?

That's the main point here and the same could be done with Dublin.

The danger and filth of the north inner city can be fixed - it's not impossible, as the NYC experience proves.

elperello

https://www.dublininquirer.com/2017/11/08/in-drumcondra-raising-the-water-level-to-force-out-homeless-people/

An interesting approach from Waterways Ireland.

wakka12

elperello wrote: »

https://www.dublininquirer.com/2017/11/08/in-drumcondra-raising-the-water-level-to-force-out-homeless-people/

An interesting approach from Waterways Ireland.

Hm that doesnt sit right with me at all. I think homeless people should be deterred from sleeping in certain areas by providing better alternatives elsewhere.Not by forcing them out. Clearly theres problems with homeless hostels but Ive seen homeless sleeper boxes in other cities that look like they might work

Bonniedog

alastair wrote: »

Only a, eh, fkn idiot can’t discern the difference between NYC and New York State. The figures I posted are correct for NYC - the place under discussion.

https://sites.hks.harvard.edu/ocpa/cms/files/criminal-justice/research-publications/fsr2901_04_greeneschiraldi.pdf

I posted a link. You are making numbers up out of your head.

By the way, the fact that the stats I quote refer to entire state strengthens my point as crime is almost non existent in the sleepy towns of upstate

What are you trying to prove anyway? that it would be better that all these scum are wandering the streets?

Person who made point about falling birth rate does have some validity. One of reasons for that was many of the feral multiple fathers were locked up

zetalambda

wakka12 wrote: »

Dublin is pretty big. Its roughly half the size of san fransisoc in terms of population ,600k in central city area, nearly 1.5 million people in city and suburban area combined. Almost 2 million if you include metro area which includes places like kildare meath wicklow

SF had 800,000 in the city, 4.5 million metro area which includes distant counties and towns outside san fransico, similar to how meath kildare are in our 'metro'dublin area

Are you including all the cows and the sheep in that figure?

If you type Kildare, Meath and Wicklow into Google, this is what you get:

Bonniedog

wakka12 wrote: »

Hm that doesnt sit right with me at all. I think homeless people should be deterred from sleeping in certain areas by providing better alternatives elsewhere.Not by forcing them out. Clearly theres problems with homeless hostels but Ive seen homeless sleeper boxes in other cities that look like they might work

Most if not all street sleepers are junkies and others who do not want to or cannot cope with living in any sort of accommodation. The luvvies had organised a protest about your man found dead in Suffolk Street until it was revealed he had been convicted of child rape in Australia and been deported. These are the heroes of the left ...

alastair

Bonniedog wrote: »

I posted a link. You are making numbers up out of your head.

By the way, the fact that the stats I quote refer to entire state strengthens my point as crime is almost non existent in the sleepy towns of upstate

What are you trying to prove anyway? that it would be better that all these scum are wandering the streets?

Person who made point about falling birth rate does have some validity. One of reasons for that was many of the feral multiple fathers were locked up

Sorry for your lack of comprehension, but the figures are not made up, they're entirely accurate, and, if you bothered to actually read the data I linked to, you'd grasp that crime instances fell further over those years in NYC than they did in the remainder of the state ('sleepy' or otherwise). The population of NYC grew over those years btw - so no, it's nothing to do with a falling birth rate. Nor is it on the back of increased incarceration, as incarceration rates fell considerably.

alastair

Dublin Spur wrote: »

But we can all agree than Manhattan was cleaned up in the 90s/00s ?

That's the main point here and the same could be done with Dublin.

The danger and filth of the north inner city can be fixed - it's not impossible, as the NYC experience proves.

Manhattan was certainly cleaned up - but not on the back of 'zero tolerance' and not on the back of throwing increased numbers in prison. I lived in Brooklyn during the early Dinkins years - supposedly the peak of the crime wave in NYC, and while it was a grittier place, it wasn't particularly scarier on account of greater numbers of evident homeless people. During the crime reduction 'miracle' of NYC (1990 - 1997), crime rates fell in most large US cities - irrespective of policing or incarceration strategies at play. No-one is entirely sure why this is the case, but it's likely that the addiction levels on the back of crack had peaked beforehand, and the consequent violent crime associated with it did too. This would explain, at least partially, the rapid reduction in certain violent street crime. The moving on of homeless from more touristy / public locations in Manhattan was essentially a sidebar to actual crime reduction. That was just an 'out-of-sight-out-of mind' exercise that did nothing but brush the continuing problem under the carpet of the outer boroughs.

Bonniedog

alastair wrote: »

Sorry for your lack of comprehension, but the figures are not made up, they're entirely accurate, and, if you bothered to actually read the data I linked to, you'd grasp that crime instances fell further over those years in NYC than they did in the remainder of the state ('sleepy' or otherwise). The population of NYC grew over those years btw - so no, it's nothing to do with a falling birth rate. Nor is it on the back of increased incarceration, as incarceration rates fell considerably.

So they all decided to become upright citizens? As I said, I posted links showing huge increase in NY incarceration rates between 1990 and 1995, when the major decrease in serious crime took place. You quote stats but don't reference them.

These are actual statistics on murders and manslaughters in NY between 1990 and 1995 when incarceration rate increased dramatically.

https://www.ucrdatatool.gov/Search/Crime/State/RunCrimeTrendsInOneVar.cfm

Over a 1000 less in 1995 than in 1990.

Kyle More

eduzzino5 wrote: »

I don't even know the right word to use (knackers/chavs/scumbags/junkies)

Take THAT, political correctness!

alastair

Bonniedog wrote: »

So they all decided to become upright citizens? As I said, I posted links showing huge increase in NY incarceration rates between 1990 and 1995, when the major decrease in serious crime took place. You quote stats but don't reference them.

And, once more, the NYC incarceration rate FELL by 28% over the years 1990 - 2009. That's at odds with the rest of the state, where incarceration levels were increased, and crime reduction was lower.

If you actually bothered to read the linked data I'd provided you might understand this a bit better.

alastair

Bonniedog wrote: »

These are actual statistics on murders and manslaughters in NY between 1990 and 1995 when incarceration rate increased dramatically.

https://www.ucrdatatool.gov/Search/Crime/State/RunCrimeTrendsInOneVar.cfm

Over a 1000 less in 1995 than in 1990.

Once again - NY state is not NYC.