General Rugby Discussion II

pickarooney

Lost Ormond wrote: »

The rugby discipline system is based on the legal system. There isnt going to be any change about time off for guilty pleas. Now those with clear or relatively clean records will get reduced sentence. If they dont appeal the decision you dont need ref to give further info, injured party to give testimony

He pleaded guilty and they still ruled it accidental. What's the sense in that?

nerd69

pickarooney wrote: »

He pleaded guilty and they still ruled it accidental. What's the sense in that?

He didn't plead guilty to it being intentional though

Teferi

Pretty interesting long read here: The lessons Irish rugby should learn from Australian rugby's calamity.

It details how Australia went from the top of the mountain to the bottom. Fairly interesting. Not sure I agree with all the takes regarding Ireland but it's some food for though.

awec

Teferi wrote: »

Pretty interesting long read here: The lessons Irish rugby should learn from Australian rugby's calamity.

It details how Australia went from the top of the mountain to the bottom. Fairly interesting. Not sure I agree with all the takes regarding Ireland but it's some food for though.

I have no real view on the whole second sport / GAA thing, but I do agree that our position is somewhat fragile and that an underwhelming core product plays a big part in that.

hahashake

Teferi wrote: »

Pretty interesting long read here: The lessons Irish rugby should learn from Australian rugby's calamity.

It details how Australia went from the top of the mountain to the bottom. Fairly interesting. Not sure I agree with all the takes regarding Ireland but it's some food for though.

Fascinating article, however I'm not sure they were ever in a rosy position domestically. World cup wins, shiny new competitions and a home world cup meant that they had a lot more attention on them back then. But the core sports for the average man have always been Rugby League, Australian Rules and Cricket. As someone with Australian family and having lived there myself for a few years, Union is the game of private schools. Immigrants/expats would be the only "working class" interest in the game. You could argue that they could have made inroads with all the attention and revenue back then, but just like football fans in Europe, the best they can hope for is fans choosing a second team in Union - and in this case it would be the Wallabies not their state team. That's why there was a top down approach. With the fall of the Wallabies, that interest waned too.

Christy42

Teferi wrote: »

Pretty interesting long read here: The lessons Irish rugby should learn from Australian rugby's calamity.

It details how Australia went from the top of the mountain to the bottom. Fairly interesting. Not sure I agree with all the takes regarding Ireland but it's some food for though.

I think the mention of our poor results shows limited thinking. Bad results happen and if rugby improves then some well run unions will have 3rd place finishes. A rising tide and all that.

I think there are some global problems with rugby and Australia was a weak link. Ireland is also likely vulnerable due to the amount of available sports (GAA not paying and FAI being bad at their jobs is a boon though). One issue is how keen Super Rugby is to push copyright.

Content creators (youtube, patreon etc.) are a massive thing in US sports is content creators and they are actively encouraged to use footage. Less so in Rugby and some who have tried have had massive issues using footage. People are literally trying to advertise Rugby at no extra cost to the teams/unions and they are trying to stop them. There are some doing it but why make their lives harder?

Personally I think changes in reffing and tactics has made international rugby a lot less entertaining. That could be me but I do think they are suffering in that product as well.

hahashake

The "product" is definitely an issue for non-rugby people. Too complicated, too many grey areas.

swiwi_

hahashake wrote: »

Fascinating article, however I'm not sure they were ever in a rosy position domestically. World cup wins, shiny new competitions and a home world cup meant that they had a lot more attention on them back then. But the core sports for the average man have always been Rugby League, Australian Rules and Cricket. As someone with Australian family and having lived there myself for a few years, Union is the game of private schools. Immigrants/expats would be the only "working class" interest in the game. You could argue that they could have made inroads with all the attention and revenue back then, but just like football fans in Europe, the best they can hope for is fans choosing a second team in Union - and in this case it would be the Wallabies not their state team. That's why there was a top down approach. With the fall of the Wallabies, that interest waned too.

I lived in Australia for 10 weeks. I remember an Aussie vs NZ bledisloe game that got 2 lines in the newspaper while league was plastered everywhere. Rugby is to Australia what a sport like polo is to nz: perceived as an elite upper crust sport.

Lost Ormond

Teferi wrote: »

Pretty interesting long read here: The lessons Irish rugby should learn from Australian rugby's calamity.

It details how Australia went from the top of the mountain to the bottom. Fairly interesting. Not sure I agree with all the takes regarding Ireland but it's some food for though.

I think a lot of the takes around Ireland are true and there was the potential for that to happen here but IRFU have done well to expand and develop the game more to stop that

The Grassroots arent supported near enough by many so called die hard rugby fans. The people who go to so many of their provinces games and Irish games in the aviva but are never near club/domestic games of any kind bar if they went to a rugby school the odd SCT game every february/march

awec wrote: »

I have no real view on the whole second sport / GAA thing, but I do agree that our position is somewhat fragile and that an underwhelming core product plays a big part in that.

hahashake wrote: »

Fascinating article, however I'm not sure they were ever in a rosy position domestically. World cup wins, shiny new competitions and a home world cup meant that they had a lot more attention on them back then. But the core sports for the average man have always been Rugby League, Australian Rules and Cricket. As someone with Australian family and having lived there myself for a few years, Union is the game of private schools. Immigrants/expats would be the only "working class" interest in the game. You could argue that they could have made inroads with all the attention and revenue back then, but just like football fans in Europe, the best they can hope for is fans choosing a second team in Union - and in this case it would be the Wallabies not their state team. That's why there was a top down approach. With the fall of the Wallabies, that interest waned too.

Possibly the successes of the Wallabies in the late 90s early 00s hid a lot of the problems within Australian rugby and as national side dropped off the rest of the issues that were there just rose further.

awec

Lost Ormond wrote: »

I think a lot of the takes around Ireland are true and there was the potential for that to happen here but IRFU have done well to expand and develop the game more to stop that

The Grassroots arent supported near enough by many so called die hard rugby fans. The people who go to so many of their provinces games and Irish games in the aviva but are never near club/domestic games of any kind bar if they went to a rugby school the odd SCT game every february/march




Possibly the successes of the Wallabies in the late 90s early 00s hid a lot of the problems within Australian rugby and as national side dropped off the rest of the issues that were there just rose further.

With the provinces now playing every week they've basically replaced what the clubs were for people. There isn't enough room for both for the average person.

thomond2006

Lost Ormond wrote: »

The Grassroots arent supported near enough by many so called die hard rugby fans. The people who go to so many of their provinces games and Irish games in the aviva but are never near club/domestic games of any kind bar if they went to a rugby school the odd SCT game every february/march

You aren't going to attract those people with that kind of tone.

The reality is the amateur and pro games are very different things and as awec says the provinces have supplanted the clubs as the elite week to week level that will attract people and media interest.

Bazzo

Lost Ormond wrote: »

I think a lot of the takes around Ireland are true and there was the potential for that to happen here but IRFU have done well to expand and develop the game more to stop that

The Grassroots arent supported near enough by many so called die hard rugby fans. The people who go to so many of their provinces games and Irish games in the aviva but are never near club/domestic games of any kind bar if they went to a rugby school the odd SCT game every february/march




Possibly the successes of the Wallabies in the late 90s early 00s hid a lot of the problems within Australian rugby and as national side dropped off the rest of the issues that were there just rose further.

Someone attending loads of provincial/national games is pumping money into the system. I think it's a bit much to say they're not doing enough tbh.

Personally I also try to get to the odd club game when I'm home and enter the raffles etc but people only have so much time.

Lost Ormond

awec wrote: »

With the provinces now playing every week they've basically replaced what the clubs were for people. There isn't enough room for both for the average person.

They dont play in Ireland for nearly half the season and there certainly is room to attend club games even occasionally.

thomond2006 wrote: »

You aren't going to attract those people with that kind of tone.

The reality is the amateur and pro games are very different things and as awec says the provinces have supplanted the clubs as the elite week to week level that will attract people and media interest.

They are very different things but without the clubs and the club game there is no professional game. If the club game continues to struggle then eventually there will be serious knock on effects to the professional game.

Bazzo wrote: »

Someone attending loads of provincial/national games is pumping money into the system. I think it's a bit much to say they're not doing enough tbh.

Personally I also try to get to the odd club game when I'm home and enter the raffles etc but people only have so much time.

I dont see how it is bit too much, How much of that money going to provinces will filter down to the clubs. People do only have so much time but a few hours every few weeks or even an hour or two a week isnt too difficult to give to the local club. Its not near the same as spending 3/4 hours minimum between everything at pro games....

salmocab

thomond2006 wrote: »

You aren't going to attract those people with that kind of tone.

The reality is the amateur and pro games are very different things and as awec says the provinces have supplanted the clubs as the elite week to week level that will attract people and media interest.

It also depends on what’s meant by grassroots, I know quite a few Leinster supporters some who go regularly, some occasionally some just buy a jersey and watch from the pub, very few of them would go to a senior men’s club game but practically all of them will bring their kids up on a Sunday morning with lots coaching.

Squidgy Black

salmocab wrote: »

It also depends on what’s meant by grassroots, I know quite a few Leinster supporters some who go regularly, some occasionally some just buy a jersey and watch from the pub, very few of them would go to a senior men’s club game but practically all of them will bring their kids up on a Sunday morning with lots coaching.

Wholeheartedly agree, anyone I know with young kids who is a rugby fan has them in minis and is giving a hand with coaching etc.

And I think it's an unfair argument because it's no different to any other sport in Ireland. You'd be hard pushed to find significant crowds at a local club football match vs the number that attend an international match in the Aviva which even then has poor enough attendances, or a club league match in GAA vs a county match (outside of the odd club championship game).

There's also the fact that a lot of people simply don't have a tie to a local club. And it's not only because of the schools system, rugby in Ireland has a lot of cross-sport fans.

Lost Ormond

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Wholeheartedly agree, anyone I know with young kids who is a rugby fan has them in minis and is giving a hand with coaching etc.

And I think it's an unfair argument because it's no different to any other sport in Ireland. You'd be hard pushed to find significant crowds at a local club football match vs the number that attend an international match in the Aviva which even then has poor enough attendances, or a club league match in GAA vs a county match (outside of the odd club championship game).

There's also the fact that a lot of people simply don't have a tie to a local club. And it's not only because of the schools system, rugby in Ireland has a lot of cross-sport fans.

The average club GAA games and GAA clubs in general are supported far more than most rugby clubs across nearly all grades even many of the best supported rugby clubs and rugby clubs should be doing far better.
GAA is miles better and rugby needs to learn a lot from the GAA in their support of all levels of the game.
I dont see how it is an unfair argument.

molloyjh

Lost Ormond wrote: »

They dont play in Ireland for nearly half the season and there certainly is room to attend club games even occasionally.

Thats a really easy thing to say tbh, but the reality is very different. Even when Leinster are away, watching them is 2 hours or more of your weekend. That's not a whole lot depending on what stage of your life you're at, but for many it's a good chunk of time. To get to a club game is another 3 or more hours. That's around 6 hours of the day (assuming both the same day), which effectively is your whole day. Anyone with a family can almost straight away be counted out then.

I'm only down the road from Greystones RFC. My mother in laws partner used to play for them, was treasurer for years etc etc. We've been trying to get to a game for years now and a huge number of them conflict directly with home games for Leinster. In the majority of games we've looked at going to its been an either or for us.

All but 1 of my face masks are Greystones RFC masks, I've been a member of clubs in the past, I've bought the raffle tickets etc etc. But awec is right. When it comes to going to games, the provinces have replaced the clubs because there is only so much time that average people can give.

Squidgy Black

Lost Ormond wrote: »

The average club GAA games and GAA clubs in general are supported far more than most rugby clubs across nearly all grades even many of the best supported rugby clubs and rugby clubs should be doing far better.
GAA is miles better and rugby needs to learn a lot from the GAA in their support of all levels of the game.
I dont see how it is an unfair argument.

Outside of Dublin maybe, where clubs are heavily ingrained in the parish, but having played in and been to many GAA club games when I was younger, attendances are grossly overestimated outside of championship games. You'd be well pushed to have more than 100 people at a league game.

Lost Ormond

molloyjh wrote: »

Thats a really easy thing to say tbh, but the reality is very different. Even when Leinster are away, watching them is 2 hours or more of your weekend. That's not a whole lot depending on what stage of your life you're at, but for many it's a good chunk of time. To get to a club game is another 3 or more hours. That's around 6 hours of the day (assuming both the same day), which effectively is your whole day. Anyone with a family can almost straight away be counted out then.

I'm only down the road from Greystones RFC. My mother in laws partner used to play for them, was treasurer for years etc etc. We've been trying to get to a game for years now and a huge number of them conflict directly with home games for Leinster. In the majority of games we've looked at going to its been an either or for us.

All but 1 of my face masks are Greystones RFC masks, I've been a member of clubs in the past, I've bought the raffle tickets etc etc. But awec is right. When it comes to going to games, the provinces have replaced the clubs because there is only so much time that average people can give.

Yes life circumstances can come into it.
But there's many young professionals who follow the sport, played it a lot, and dont have all these family concerns and they dont know of/get involved in the sport near enough and that isnt good enough for the sport as a whole.
There's a lot who dont even physically attend the provincial games all the time but watch on tv and could do that in the clubs and support the club at same time.
Yes peoples time is limited yet what GAA supporters/club members do in many cases is so much greater than rugby and many provincial rugby supporters could give some more back to their clubs

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Outside of Dublin maybe, where clubs are heavily ingrained in the parish, but having played in and been to many GAA club games when I was younger, attendances are grossly overestimated outside of championship games. You'd be well pushed to have more than 100 people at a league game.

Ive only experience of GAA outside Dublin so yeah its different

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

Thats a really easy thing to say tbh, but the reality is very different. Even when Leinster are away, watching them is 2 hours or more of your weekend. That's not a whole lot depending on what stage of your life you're at, but for many it's a good chunk of time. To get to a club game is another 3 or more hours. That's around 6 hours of the day (assuming both the same day), which effectively is your whole day. Anyone with a family can almost straight away be counted out then.

I'm only down the road from Greystones RFC. My mother in laws partner used to play for them, was treasurer for years etc etc. We've been trying to get to a game for years now and a huge number of them conflict directly with home games for Leinster. In the majority of games we've looked at going to its been an either or for us.

All but 1 of my face masks are Greystones RFC masks, I've been a member of clubs in the past, I've bought the raffle tickets etc etc. But awec is right. When it comes to going to games, the provinces have replaced the clubs because there is only so much time that average people can give.

Great points. Most people have no real interest in going to watch junior rugby except for the friends and families of those involved.

And going to watch senior rugby only works if your club is home the weekend your province is away.

And for me personally about 2 games a month is about as much as I can get away with, since there is always an element of having to plan your weekend around the match.

Tigerandahalf

When I was in Melbourne rugby union or league weren't heard of. It was all AFL with a week of Melbourne Cup horse racing in November.

The AFL is huge there. The AFL has also expanded over the last 20 years with extra clubs now in Sydney (Giants) and in the Gold Coast (Suns). There are more games on pay tv but crucially there are always games on the free to air networks. The ladies AFL game is also expanding rapidly there.

The AFL can sell out a 100,000 stadium for 2 club sides in Melbourne. It attracts all classes of people and is the people's games.

Rugby league is the big one then in Sydney and in Queensland.

Rugby union never really had a base to begin with. What they do have (or did) is the ability to offer 3 or 4 big league stars a big wage to convert to union and wrap their side around. It did bring them success but it was superficial in that they never really captured the minds of the Australian supporters.

Ireland doesn't have that option. If it wasn't for the private schools here we would be in a very weak position.

Schools are key in nurturing talent.
A lot of Limerick's current hurlers have come through Ard Scoil Rís.

They make a good point in the article about a lot of club organisations not being in profit. That is a key thing to be looked at. TV revenue may have peaked for a lot of sports and you have the whole contrast between union backed teams whose number 1 is the national side and privately backed clubs who are only concerned about themselves. That is a bigger issue for me.

Burkie1203

Hallelujah


https://twitter.com/RugbyInsideLine/status/1394369517640372230?s=19

Yeah_Right

molloyjh wrote: »

I'm only down the road from Greystones RFC. My mother in laws partner used to play for them, was treasurer for years etc etc. We've been trying to get to a game for years now and a huge number of them conflict directly with home games for Leinster. In the majority of games we've looked at going to its been an either or for us.

That's an interesting point about the scheduling conflict. Seems mad. Surely it's a missed opportunity. Get people into the club for the AIL match then have the Leinster match on big screen after. Have some food and drink specials. Promote the whole thing in the local community. I'd head along to the local club for something like that.

Lost Ormond

Yeah_Right wrote: »

That's an interesting point about the scheduling conflict. Seems mad. Surely it's a missed opportunity. Get people into the club for the AIL match then have the Leinster match on big screen after. Have some food and drink specials. Promote the whole thing in the local community. I'd head along to the local club for something like that.

This. this. this.
You can always go to your local club and games and still catch the pro game be it province or country. You cant do it the other way round.

awec

How much do they charge you in to an AIL game? I've only ever went to watch Metro league stuff before.

Lost Ormond

awec wrote: »

How much do they charge you in to an AIL game? I've only ever went to watch Metro league stuff before.

tenner in some clubs can be less.
if you're in city centre and have some free time and trinity are home always worth walking by college park.
no charge there unless you want to donate something to the club.

Teferi

This is Dublin but I've seen €20 entrance for a 1sts games, and it wasn't even a derby. You're only getting the diehards, the parents and the alikadoos at that price. For an extra fiver you get into the RDS for a Leinster game - not a chance you attract a passerby.

awec

Teferi wrote: »

This is Dublin but I've seen €20 entrance for a 1sts games, and it wasn't even a derby. You're only getting the diehards, the parents and the alikadoos at that price. For an extra fiver you get into the RDS for a Leinster game - not a chance you attract a passerby.

I think I paid a tenner to watch Terenure Metro 6 or something in a league final a number of years ago.

Maybe I am misremembering through, so don't take this as gospel.

FellasFellas

Shouldn't be worrying about charges after this past year, give the club your money if you want it to keep alive. Go and spend your money in the bar and at the gate, every little helps.

Lost Ormond

awec wrote: »

I think I paid a tenner to watch Terenure Metro 6 or something in a league final a number of years ago.

Maybe I am misremembering through, so don't take this as gospel.

League final is different. Metro 6 or pretty much any other club game bar a clubs first team wont have an entry fee.