General Rugby Discussion II

The Inbetween is mine

He's making a distinction between the pro side, and an academy appointment....fair enough I guess if we take it from his point of view.

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/thepaulwilliams/status/1388083115223097346?s=19

Eod100

https://twitter.com/CianTracey1/status/1391684320209915905?s=19

hahashake

https://twitter.com/SFParisRugby/status/1391717151661121537

Thrashssacre

hahashake wrote: »

https://twitter.com/SFParisRugby/status/1391717151661121537

Some signing he's been immense this season.

mfceiling

Just saw on twitter Mike Brown doing his best Mike Brown impression by doing a complete Mike Brown on a prone player.


For those of you who didn't see it he stamped his foot into a guy's face who was lying on his back on the ground.

Desperate stuff.

Podge_irl

mfceiling wrote: »

Just saw on twitter Mike Brown doing his best Mike Brown impression by doing a complete Mike Brown on a prone player.


For those of you who didn't see it he stamped his foot into a guy's face who was lying on his back on the ground.

Desperate stuff.

After the (deserved tbf) hoohah about Quins treating him poorly, its somewhat ironic that this is how he potentially makes his farewell.

AdamD

Didn't he stamp on an Irish players head a few years ago in the 6N and get away with it?

Squidgy Black

AdamD wrote: »

Didn't he stamp on an Irish players head a few years ago in the 6N and get away with it?

Murray's, didn't stamp but rather booted him in the head when you could kick the ball in the ruck. Was pretty much the catalyst for the rule change.

Yeah_Right

The commentators mentioned his high number of yellow cards but this was his first red. I thought, well it wasnt for lack of trying.

joseywhales

I have memories of one of my own players sidestepping on to my face as I lay prone....he never apologized either.......it's actually not as bad as you would imagine depending on weight I guess.

cadaliac

joseywhales wrote: »

I have memories of one of my own players sidestepping on to my face as I lay prone....he never apologized either.......it's actually not as bad as you would imagine depending on weight I guess.

That was accidental - yera, there's no place for it in the professional game nowadays.

Jerry Attrick

Brown's disciplinary hearing is this evening, as is Bath's Tom Dunn's who got a red (his second in two months) for a no arms hit on a Bears player's head.

blackwhite

Jerry Attrick wrote: »

Brown's disciplinary hearing is this evening, as is Bath's Tom Dunn's who got a red (his second in two months) for a no arms hit on a Bears player's head.

6 weeks for Brown. 12 week entry point then 50% mitigation for his record and the guilty plea. It was deemed reckless instead of intentional.

Got off very lightly IMO - he clearly looked down before moving his foot

Dave_The_Sheep

Time off for guilty pleas really needs to go - across the board, not just because of this incident. It's such a cheap way of getting time off a ban - oh, you're pleading guilty to doing something that we have multiple video angles of you doing? Such a standup chap.

Is this some legal challenge thing? As in, if they get the player to admit to doing it, a player's potential legal team can't claim they didn't admit it and shouldn't be stopped working as a result?

connemara man

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Time off for guilty pleas really needs to go - across the board, not just because of this incident. It's such a cheap way of getting time off a ban - oh, you're pleading guilty to doing something that we have multiple video angles of you doing? Such a standup chap.

Is this some legal challenge thing? As in, if they get the player to admit to doing it, a player's potential legal team can't claim they didn't admit it and shouldn't be stopped working as a result?

By pleading guilty they stop the whole going through the evidence taking testimony etc...

So by reducing sanctions for pleading guilty it makes sure more peopy will and in doing so reduce the cost and time required

Dave_The_Sheep

Makes sense. Mind you, I'd prefer it the other way. If you don't plead guilty, you're getting more of a ban as opposed to you're getting less if you do.

stephen_n

connemara man wrote: »

By pleading guilty they stop the whole going through the evidence taking testimony etc...

So by reducing sanctions for pleading guilty it makes sure more peopy will and in doing so reduce the cost and time required

That’s a valid argument in a criminal trial. How much evidence needs to be reviewed in a disciplinary hearing? It’s a poor excuse.

Lost Ormond

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Time off for guilty pleas really needs to go - across the board, not just because of this incident. It's such a cheap way of getting time off a ban - oh, you're pleading guilty to doing something that we have multiple video angles of you doing? Such a standup chap.

Is this some legal challenge thing? As in, if they get the player to admit to doing it, a player's potential legal team can't claim they didn't admit it and shouldn't be stopped working as a result?

The rugby discipline system is based on the legal system. There isnt going to be any change about time off for guilty pleas. Now those with clear or relatively clean records will get reduced sentence. If they dont appeal the decision you dont need ref to give further info, injured party to give testimony

connemara man

stephen_n wrote: »

That’s a valid argument in a criminal trial. How much evidence needs to be reviewed in a disciplinary hearing? It’s a poor excuse.

But the whole system is based on criminal law

The video here explains what happens at the moment well
https://www.world.rugby/organisation/governance/discipline

Anybody know what's the latest with having crowds at matches in Ireland?

aloooof

Deleted User wrote: »

Anybody know what's the latest with having crowds at matches in Ireland?

This was the latest I heard from last week, which would be in time for the Japan and USA Tests:

https://twitter.com/RuaidhriOC/status/1389658709719228423

stephen_n

connemara man wrote: »

But the whole system is based on criminal law

The video here explains what happens at the moment well
https://www.world.rugby/organisation/governance/discipline

Yes I understand what they base it but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be rethought. Link doesn’t work though. As it stands it’s a joke really, it doesn’t differentiate between intentional acts of assault, like Brown at the weekend. With poor technique leading to loss of control like Fagerson for Scotland. Just plead guilty and we will half your punishment regardless of your actions.

connemara man

stephen_n wrote: »

Yes I understand what they base it but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be rethought. Link doesn’t work though. As it stands it’s a joke really, it doesn’t differentiate between intentional acts of assault, like Brown at the weekend. With poor technique leading to loss of control like Fagerson for Scotland. Just plead guilty and we will half your punishment regardless of your actions.

Oh I completely agree the system at the moment is Flawed AF, and needs a complete do over.

I'm just saying where it comes from and thought I was linking the World Rugby video explainer

Jerry Attrick

blackwhite wrote: »

6 weeks for Brown. 12 week entry point then 50% mitigation for his record and the guilty plea. It was deemed reckless instead of intentional.

Got off very lightly IMO - he clearly looked down before moving his foot

Agreed.

But - unless he appeals and gets it reduced - that's the end of his 'quins career; even if they reach the Premiership final there are only six possible games left in the season.

I see Dunn got 4 weeks, so his season is over too.

Lost Ormond

stephen_n wrote: »

Yes I understand what they base it but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be rethought. Link doesn’t work though. As it stands it’s a joke really, it doesn’t differentiate between intentional acts of assault, like Brown at the weekend. With poor technique leading to loss of control like Fagerson for Scotland. Just plead guilty and we will half your punishment regardless of your actions.

There is differentiation between intentional and poor techniques in cases.
All depends on your record as well if you get punishment reduced

connemara man wrote: »

Oh I completely agree the system at the moment is Flawed AF, and needs a complete do over.

I'm just saying where it comes from and thought I was linking the World Rugby video explainer

How would you do it over though?

connemara man

Lost Ormond wrote: »

There is differentiation between intentional and poor techniques in cases.
All depends on your record as well if you get punishment reduced



How would you do it over though?

I'd like to see offences make more sense in relation to eachother
And have time off as a starting point and up for not pleading guilty not the other way around.

So for example a mid range head red starts at 3 weeks off (which it is now effectively if you oleas guilty and clean record)
It's 4 weeks if you don't have a clean record
5 weeks if you plead not guilty
6 weeks if both

And move it away from a criminal law system

Quin_Dub

connemara man wrote: »

I'd like to see offences make more sense in relation to eachother
And have time off as a starting point and up for not pleading guilty not the other way around.

So for example a mid range head red starts at 3 weeks off (which it is now effectively if you oleas guilty and clean record)
It's 4 weeks if you don't have a clean record
5 weeks if you plead not guilty
6 weeks if both

And move it away from a criminal law system

Since the advent of the Pro game, that is unavoidable.

Even a short ban for a player potentially impacts their income (Appearance money, Win bonus etc.) so it's always going to have to have a structure that can withstand a "proper" legal challenge if it were to come to that.

Lost Ormond

Good to see all the pacific island sides getting game time in New Zealand in July

New Zealand play Tonga then 2 tests against Fiji while Samoa will play Maoris and Tonga.
The Maori Samoa game will be a double header with NZ Tonga and the Tonga Samoa will be double header with 2nd NZ Fiji game

BonnieSituation

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Good to see all the pacific island sides getting game time in New Zealand in July

New Zealand play Tonga then 2 tests against Fiji while Samoa will play Maoris and Tonga.
The Maori Samoa game will be a double header with NZ Tonga and the Tonga Samoa will be double header with 2nd NZ Fiji game

Will we get to see Fiji play at all though?