Are we over the annual poppy thread?

shaunr68

shaunr68 wrote: »

You will never get a balanced discussion on British history on an Irish forum when there are still people around with a massive chip on their shoulder because bad things were done by someone's long-dead grandfather to someone else's long-dead grandfather, in events that took place long before any of the protagonists were born.

And here you are defending commemorations of people who are long dead in events that took place long before you.... We don't do irony...

Your real problem is, of course, that you want to be able to commemorate your Empire's thugs as a force for good in the world but, this being an Irish forum, there are still enough of us around to challenge your jingoistic bollocksology and national deceits.

You could start your memory colonisation by renaming the Gallow's Hill I pass each day. It's a fine local reminder of the reality of what your poppy commemorates/another heroic year in the British Empire in Ireland.

Then wash and repeat across Ireland. Take our memory and convince us your British colonial narrative is "the truth" and you finally win your conquest of Ireland. Not on my watch.

LordSutch

Its still October, so to be honest this poppy thread is a little premature (as are those who wear poppies in TV).

From my personal perspective, my family & I wear poppies to commemorate the fallen from our family and others who died in war. Mostly the 1st World War & WWII, but I also find myself thinking of other loved ones who died more recently (not connected to any war), but just the fact that its Remembrance Sunday/week is enough to spark off memories of the departed.

Its a sombre week alright, and for far too long we had to put up with verbal abuse for wearing our badge of remembrance (which requires a donation) that goes into a fund (ROI) for the upkeep of old soldiers & their dependents, not that there's many left now ......

I will buy my poppy as I always do from an old poppy seller on the street or in the porch of our Church, I will pin it to my lapel/jacket and wear it in Dublin as a mark of respect for the week.

Whatever ones arguments about war, the fact remains that "they never came home" well not alive anyway, and that's the whole point of remembrance, to remember the young men who went off to war and never came home to their families. Young Irish men by the ship load.

Hope this helps

ohnonotgmail

LordSutch wrote: »

Its still October, so to be honest this poppy thread is a little premature (as are those who wear poppies in TV).

From my personal perspective, my family & I wear poppies to commemorate the fallen from our family and others who died in war. Mostly the 1st World War & WWII, but I also find myself thinking of other loved ones who died more recently (not connected to any war), but just the fact that its Remembrance Sunday/week is enough to spark off memories of the departed.

Its a sombre week alright, and for far too long we had to put up with verbal abuse for wearing our badge of remembrance (which requires a donation) that goes into a fund (ROI) for the upkeep of old soldiers & their dependents, not that there's many left now ......

I will buy my poppy as I always do from an old poppy seller on the street or in the porch of our Church, I will pin it to my lapel/jacket and wear it in Dublin as a mark of respect for the week.

Whatever ones arguments about war, the fact remains that "they never came home" well not alive anyway, and that's the whole point of remembrance, to remember the young men who went off to war and never came home to their families. Young Irish men by the ship load.

Hope this helps

AH is no place for this kind of measured and reasonable post.

FrancieBrady

LordSutch wrote: »

Its still October, so to be honest this poppy thread is a little premature (as are those who wear poppies in TV).

From my personal perspective, my family & I wear poppies to commemorate the fallen from our family and others who died in war. Mostly the 1st World War & WWII, but I also find myself thinking of other loved ones who died more recently (not connected to any war), but just the fact that its Remembrance Sunday/week is enough to spark off memories of the departed.

Its a sombre week alright, and for far too long we had to put up with verbal abuse for wearing our badge of remembrance (which requires a donation) that goes into a fund (ROI) for the upkeep of old soldiers & their dependents, not that there's many left now ......

I will buy my poppy as I always do from an old poppy seller on the street or in the porch of our Church, I will pin it to my lapel/jacket and wear it in Dublin as a mark of respect for the week.

Whatever ones arguments about war, the fact remains that "they never came home" well not alive anyway, and that's the whole point of remembrance, to remember the young men who went off to war and never came home to their families. Young Irish men by the ship load.

Hope this helps

Nobody has a problem with respectful remembrance of the dead.
The 'poppy' debate isn't about that anymore though.

ohnonotgmail

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody has a problem with respectful remembrance of the dead.
The 'poppy' debate isn't about that anymore though.

that is because certain elements have decided to hijack the debate

FrancieBrady

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

that is because certain elements have decided to hijack the debate

No, the debate is essentially about the hijacking of the 'poppy' I think.

A Little Pony

FrancieBrady wrote: »

LordSutch wrote: »

Its still October, so to be honest this poppy thread is a little premature (as are those who wear poppies in TV).

From my personal perspective, my family & I wear poppies to commemorate the fallen from our family and others who died in war. Mostly the 1st World War & WWII, but I also find myself thinking of other loved ones who died more recently (not connected to any war), but just the fact that its Remembrance Sunday/week is enough to spark off memories of the departed.

Its a sombre week alright, and for far too long we had to put up with verbal abuse for wearing our badge of remembrance (which requires a donation) that goes into a fund (ROI) for the upkeep of old soldiers & their dependents, not that there's many left now ......

I will buy my poppy as I always do from an old poppy seller on the street or in the porch of our Church, I will pin it to my lapel/jacket and wear it in Dublin as a mark of respect for the week.

Whatever ones arguments about war, the fact remains that "they never came home" well not alive anyway, and that's the whole point of remembrance, to remember the young men who went off to war and never came home to their families. Young Irish men by the ship load.

Hope this helps

Nobody has a problem with respectful remembrance of the dead.
The 'poppy' debate isn't about that anymore though.

Says who? To the vast majority it is in remembrance of ancestors they have who fell in war. It's a very dignified symbol for the majority of people. It's not being forced upon you.

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

Says who? To the vast majority it is in remembrance of ancestors they have who fell in war. It's a very dignified symbol for the majority of people. It's not being forced upon you.

No doubt about the sincerity of a lot of poppy wearers. But these threads start because there are issues with wearing it that arise, particularly in countries where the realm may have a chequered reputation.

It is giving cause for increasing concern within the remaining realm too.

I think this quote sums up the concerns I would have and the offensive nature it can have.

the veterans argue that the original aim of the appeal as a sombre commemoration of the war dead and the horrors of conflict was in danger of being lost amid the marketing spin and tub-thumping political aims.

"A day that should be about peace and remembrance is turned into a month-long drum-roll of support for current wars. This year's campaign has been launched with showbiz hype. The true horror and futility of war is forgotten and ignored," they write.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/nov/05/poppy-appeal-subverted-veterans-complain

seamus

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, the debate is essentially about the hijacking of the 'poppy' I think.

It's become a symbol of nationalism basically. The inference being that anyone who doesn't wear one - especially someone who may be a "role model" - is a traitor to Britain and is literally taking a **** on the graves of some dead people.

Rather than being a low-key way to memorialise the dead, it's been supplanted as a tool for nationalists to shout down and harass anyone who would dare choose to have their own opinion.

Ironically those who died would be horrified to see the poppy fascists in action. For people to whom memorialising their war dead appears to be something important to them, their actions completely piss all over the memories of those who served.

Jawgap

seamus wrote: »

It's become a symbol of nationalism basically. The inference being that anyone who doesn't wear one - especially someone who may be a "role model" - is a traitor to Britain and is literally taking a **** on the graves of some dead people.

Rather than being a low-key way to memorialise the dead, it's been supplanted as a tool for nationalists to shout down and harass anyone who would dare choose to have their own opinion.

Ironically those who died would be horrified to see the poppy fascists in action. For people to whom memorialising their war dead appears to be something important to them, their actions completely piss all over the memories of those who served.

Not just those who died. The British Legion and the other organisations around the world who organise the commemorations are pretty clear in their assertion that the decision to wear/not weat or contribute/not contribute is a purely a personal one, not to be forced on anyone. Likewise the "Veterans for Peace" organisation think the poppy has become 'over-militarised' and in consequence they advocate, if you are so minded, wearing a white poppy.....

......whatever, anyone's decision, I don't see it as necessarily a bad thing that for a few days each year we reflect and commemorate. If we don't we risk not remembering, leaving us at a greater risk of condemning ourselves to repeating previous mistakes.

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

Not just those who died. The British Legion and the other organisations around the world who organise the commemorations are pretty clear in their assertion that the decision to wear/not weat or contribute/not contribute is a purely a personal one, not to be forced on anyone. Likewise the "Veterans for Peace" organisation think the poppy has become 'over-militarised' and in consequence they advocate, if you are so minded, wearing a white poppy.....

......whatever, anyone's decision, I don't see it as necessarily a bad thing that for a few days each year we reflect and commemorate. If we don't we risk not remembering, leaving us at a greater risk of condemning ourselves to repeating previous mistakes.

Unfortunately, as long as you have the 'I will wear it and I don't care who it offends....' attitude persisting and rising in voice then the entire effort to make it a sombre and reflective symbol is completely undermined.

That is the problem and that is why you see these annual threads and the shameful attempts to silence anyone who objects - however funny those who are attempting to silence think they are being. (Poppy bingo etc) All they are doing is demonstrating that they are the major part of the problem.
Personally I think they devalue the whole project.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Personally I think they devalue the whole project.

That's laughable. So you actually think the project has some value?

FrancieBrady

Gibson Wide Matrix wrote: »

That's laughable. So you actually think the project has some value?

I have said, repeatedly, that I have no problem with the wearing of a poppy to remember. ( I do wonder why it has to be so overt, but that is a personal thing, I wouldn't need to do that.)

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Unfortunately, as long as you have the 'I will wear it and I don't care who it offends....' attitude persisting and rising in voice then the entire effort to make it a sombre and reflective symbol is completely undermined.

That is the problem and that is why you see these annual threads and the shameful attempts to silence anyone who objects - however funny those who are attempting to silence think they are being. (Poppy bingo etc) All they are doing is demonstrating that they are the major part of the problem.
Personally I think they devalue the whole project.

Yes, I will. I will wear my enamelled Irish poppy, discretely, on the lapel of my suit from about next Monday.

Believe it or not, you have no right to be not offended. If something offends you then either put up with it, or remove yourself from the situation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pTbL7GYUuA

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

Yes, I will. I will wear my enamelled Irish poppy, discretely, on the lapel of my suit from about next Monday.

Believe it or not, you have no right to be not offended. If something offends you then either put up with it, or remove yourself from the situation.

Somebody who has been on the thread since page one getting offended(however much they protest they are not) because some people are offended by the political use of the poppy is now claiming that nobody has the right to be offended.


Absolutely brilliant! :D

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Somebody who has been on the thread since page one getting offended(however much they protest they are not) because some people are offended by the political use of the poppy is now claiming that nobody has the right to be offended.


Absolutely brilliant! :D

So you've decided I'm offended ooooook. Whatever makes sense for you.



I'm not offended in anyway by anyone choosing to wear or not wear a poppy (red, white or purple), or a lilly, or a forget-me-not or a bleuet de France........people make their own decisions, and I have zero problems with that.

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

So you've decided I'm offended ooooook. Whatever makes sense for you.



I'm not offended in anyway by anyone choosing to wear or not wear a poppy (red, white or purple), or a lilly, or a forget-me-not or a bleuet de France........people make their own decisions, and I have zero problems with that.

But you are here trenchantly trying to undermine and mock anyone who objects. Yea ok.

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

But you are here trenchantly trying to undermine and mock anyone who objects. Yea ok.

Trenchantly? Hardly.....

.....I was gently mocking/satirising the arguments (not the people) for being repetitive......

Indeed, one might observe that, perhaps ironically, I was being derivative in posting such material about arguments being derivative, given it's origins in "bullsh1t bingo" - but I lacked the inclination to come up with anything original.

......anyway, all this 'trenchant' talk makes we want a trencher for lunch!! Question now is do i have time to zip to the shops to get the necessary ingredients........

storker

Jawgap wrote: »

you have no right to be not offended.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pTbL7GYUuA

Exactly.

Offense is objective, and shouldn't be legislated for. It's too easy for the thin-skinned and the censorious to abuse in order to silence or ban things that, when it comes down to it, they just don't like. The sooner there's a backlash against this culture of taking offense, the better.

Elmer Blooker

The poppy has lost all its meaning, it was originally a symbol of the horrors of no-mans land and after that in memory of those who fell fighting fascism.
Now its just a jingoistic symbol of NATO's endless wars. It took me only a few seconds to find a link to make my point.
http://forums.canadiancontent.net/international-politics/97080-prince-william-lays-wreath-camp.html
" ...... our boys and girls in Afghanistan"

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

Trenchantly? Hardly.....

.....I was gently mocking/satirising the arguments (not the people) for being repetitive......

Indeed, one might observe that, perhaps ironically, I was being derivative in posting such material about arguments being derivative, given it's origins in "bullsh1t bingo" - but I lacked the inclination to come up with anything original.

......anyway, all this 'trenchant' talk makes we want a trencher for lunch!! Question now is do i have time to zip to the shops to get the necessary ingredients........

Jawgap leaves again, does Jawgap. :rolleyes:

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Jawgap leaves again, does Jawgap. :rolleyes:

Eh, what?

You know it's perfectly possible to dine at one's computer........in fact, if you want to be offended at something you should see the state of my keyboard from doing so

I'm surprised there aren't poppies and all sorts springing up.

FrancieBrady

storker wrote: »

Exactly.

Offense is objective, and shouldn't be legislated for. It's too easy for the thin-skinned and the censorious to abuse in order to silence or ban things that, when it comes down to it, they just don't like. The sooner there's a backlash against this culture of taking offense, the better.

Indeed, so why get offended when I get offended? Or when a footballer declines to wear a symbol he is uncomfortable with or a newsreader says they won't wear it?
Mocking someone like that is a symptom of offence having been taken in my book.

All you are doing here is reserving the taking of offence for one side of the argument.

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

Eh, what?

You know it's perfectly possible to dine at one's computer........in fact, if you want to be offended at something you should see the state of my keyboard from doing so

I'm surprised there aren't poppies and all sorts springing up.

Apologies. You do have a habit of leaving debates when your arguments (so to speak) come under scrutiny.

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Indeed, so why get offended when I get offended? Or when a footballer declines to wear a symbol he is uncomfortable with or a newsreader says they won't wear it?
Mocking someone like that is a symptom of offence having been taken in my book.

All you are doing here is reserving the taking of offence for one side of the argument.

Well, you need to take that book to the library and try a different one.

It seems to me that the only one taking offence here is you.....I couldn't give a fiddlers if a footballer, a newsreader, me Ma, me Da or me auntie Mary chooses to wear or not wear a poppy.

I choose to wear one for reasons that are personal to me. I'm not sure what the secular equivalent might be, but in this regard I'd be 'guided' by the equivalent of the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Apologies. You do have a habit of leaving debates when your arguments (so to speak) come under scrutiny.

Sorry? What? Scrutiny? Who is scrutinising them?

Are you operating under the totally misguided view that what you do when you respond amounts to scrutiny?

storker

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Indeed, so why get offended when I get offended? Or when a footballer declines to wear a symbol he is uncomfortable with or a newsreader says they won't wear it?
Mocking someone like that is a symptom of offence having been taken in my book.

All you are doing here is reserving the taking of offence for one side of the argument.

I'm not offended because anyone is offended. I just don't like the culture of offense because I think it's dangerous and is used to stifle free debate. That's not the same as being offended.

FrancieBrady

storker wrote: »

I'm not offended because anyone is offended. I just don't like the culture of offense because I think it's dangerous and is used to stifle free debate. That's not the same as being offended.

So what are you guys doing on this 'free debate' so? Trying to stifle it.

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

Well, you need to take that book to the library and try a different one.

It seems to me that the only one taking offence here is you.....I couldn't give a fiddlers if a footballer, a newsreader, me Ma, me Da or me auntie Mary chooses to wear or not wear a poppy.

I choose to wear one for reasons that are personal to me. I'm not sure what the secular equivalent might be, but in this regard I'd be 'guided' by the equivalent of the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican

I think somebody who is motivated to post this has plenty of 'fiddlers' to give,' to be honest.

Isn't he making quite a lot of money playing a "garrison sport" for a club with Albion in its name??

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

Sorry? What? Scrutiny? Who is scrutinising them?

Are you operating under the totally misguided view that what you do when you respond amounts to scrutiny?

Scrutiny, from the Latin 'to search'.
I searched your posts for the absence of 'fiddlers' and my conclusion is that you do indeed give plenty fiddlers.

Just my opinion.