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The GAA, the future and it’s choices and options

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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,446 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152


    TrueGael wrote: »
    There have been as many Mayo players as one would expect on average, 2 Dublin players and none since 1990 given the population is way lower than what it would be if they were a normal county

    If you look at your own link, there are another 6 Dublin players who tried but didn't make it.

    Numbers look much more normal when you include them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 294 ✭✭ TrueGael


    LeoB wrote: »
    It is debatable if their bench is as strong as you and other think. I know most of them from refereeing and going to games. None of them consistently dominate club games because players are properly coached and can deal with the situations. Mayo are not picking from 17 players that is another stupid comment. Mayo had outside their starting another 10-12 players nearly as good as the players who started with the exception of Keegan, Moran, Barrett, Higgins and C O'Connor. Dublin like Mayo have some players who are near impossible to replace, Cluxton, Cian O'Sullivan, Mick Fitz, Dean Rock. The other can be replaced but not by better players but by very good players.
    As for Tyrone this year I said it already they were not up for this game with Dublin. Things were not good in their camp. I believe it was a mistake for Mickey Harte to stay and he only stayed because Peter the great is not ready yet.

    I know a number of Dublin lads who tried out for A.F.L and simply didnt make it. Kerry have produced a number of exceptional players with great fielding ability as have Mayo, Galway and Cork. Dublin are not producing the massive big ball winning player but more all round. As the A.F.L changes in coming years you will see more of a spread of going over not necessarily big bungalow heads as their game becomes a little physical

    Dublin lost Rory O'Carroll a few years back, Mannion a few years back , Jack MC a couple of years ago and indeed after 5 minutes of this years final.

    If Mayo or anyone else suffered even one of these setbacks it would be season over but the Blue Juggernaut just rolls on remorselessly

    If you look at Mayo's team selection in big games since Rochford got in it is a max of 17 players that get regular game time and 3/4 extras that only come on after 67/68 minutes for lads who are totally gassed out

    Robert Hennelly; Tom Cunniffe, Ger Cafferkey, Keith Higgins; Richie Feeney, Donal Vaughan, Trevor Mortimer; Aidan O’Shea, Seamus O’Shea; Kevin McLoughlin, Alan Dillon, Andy Moran; Enda Varley, Alan Freeman, Cillian O’Connor. Subs: R McGarrity for S O’Shea (48), L Keegan for R Feeney (48), A Campbell for A Freeman (54), J Doherty for E Varley (58).

    That was in 2011 when they lost in the semi final look at all the names that are still there now and the miles on the clock and compare to Dublin who had 9 players who started 2016 and 2017 finals, it's much harder when you are playing with a much much smaller deck than the opponents


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭ Bonniedog


    LeoB wrote: »
    None of them consistently dominate club games because players are properly coached and can deal with the situations.


    That is good point. Only Dublin first team players I would say you would have picked out as major intercounty players in Dublin championship were Connolly, McCarthy and John Small. Some of them look pretty average outside of the Dublin set up, including dareisayit Rock and Philly in the club final/


  • Registered Users Posts: 294 ✭✭ TrueGael


    blanch152 wrote: »
    If you look at your own link, there are another 6 Dublin players who tried but didn't make it.

    Numbers look much more normal when you include them.

    Kilkenny was picked in the 2nd round in a draft with homegrown Australian players, that doesn't constitute not making by any measure


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,250 ✭✭✭ LeoB


    But i named kilkenny specifically because he chose to leave aussie rules and come back to ireland, in the context of the question raised about dubs never playing aussie rules since kilkenny returned home.
    It wasnt a question about every single player, i was referencing his being named as a college team manager, while he was still in the college and about 20 years old.
    Basically, has he worked a day since he came back from Australia is what im getting at? And is that an indicator as to why no dubs seem to go to Australia to play aussie rules full time.

    It is none of your business whether he works or not. I know when I was looking him for something last year he was working. He spent a few hours in a hospital instead a few days later. It is no indicator at all.
    Darren O'Sullivan gave up work to concentrate on G.A.A. How was he paid or who looked after him. Do you have an issue with that?
    If you spoke to a few of the Mayo players they would tell what Dublin players do and dont do as a few of them are in D.C.U. or from Coppers:)

    You should look at how these lads are selected, who tips off the A.F.L lads about the players coming through? I bet one who tips them off is from Kerry and the other from outside Castlebar.

    You are clutching at straws and quite a bitter poster. You have little or no respect with your attitude. Look for positives in Mayo instead of bashing Dublin. You will get G.A.A. a bad name.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,250 ✭✭✭ LeoB


    TrueGael wrote: »
    Dublin lost Rory O'Carroll a few years back, Mannion a few years back , Jack MC a couple of years ago and indeed after 5 minutes of this years final.

    If Mayo or anyone else suffered even one of these setbacks it would be season over but the Blue Juggernaut just rolls on remorselessly

    If you look at Mayo's team selection in big games since Rochford got in it is a max of 17 players that get regular game time and 3/4 extras that only come on after 67/68 minutes for lads who are totally gassed out

    Robert Hennelly; Tom Cunniffe, Ger Cafferkey, Keith Higgins; Richie Feeney, Donal Vaughan, Trevor Mortimer; Aidan O’Shea, Seamus O’Shea; Kevin McLoughlin, Alan Dillon, Andy Moran; Enda Varley, Alan Freeman, Cillian O’Connor. Subs: R McGarrity for S O’Shea (48), L Keegan for R Feeney (48), A Campbell for A Freeman (54), J Doherty for E Varley (58).

    That was in 2011 when they lost in the semi final look at all the names that are still there now and the miles on the clock and compare to Dublin who had 9 players who started 2016 and 2017 finals, it's much harder when you are playing with a much much smaller deck than the opponents

    He played lads in the league last year who showed great promise and then we hardly get to see them.

    From 2011, Philly, Cluxton Mick Fitz, Paul Flynn Bernard Brogan Kevin Mc Diarmuid Connolly. Paul Flynn. Dublin players also have serious miles on the clock but it is policy to blood players in O'Byrne cup and the league and then in championship. It has to be done. Mayo dont do enough of it, from what I see.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,069 ✭✭✭ Gael85


    LeoB wrote: »
    It is none of your business whether he works or not. I know when I was looking him for something last year he was working. He spent a few hours in a hospital instead a few days later. It is no indicator at all.
    Darren O'Sullivan gave up work to concentrate on G.A.A. How was he paid or who looked after him. Do you have an issue with that?
    If you spoke to a few of the Mayo players they would tell what Dublin players do and dont do as a few of them are in D.C.U. or from Coppers:)

    You should look at how these lads are selected, who tips off the A.F.L lads about the players coming through? I bet one who tips them off is from Kerry and the other from outside Castlebar.

    You are clutching at straws and quite a bitter poster. You have little or no respect with your attitude. Look for positives in Mayo instead of bashing Dublin. You will get G.A.A. a bad name.

    That poster is not from mayo. He post about Dublin all the time and knows little about mayo other than their senior football team.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,382 ✭✭✭ tritium


    LeoB wrote: »
    It is debatable if their bench is as strong as you and other think. I know most of them from refereeing and going to games. None of them consistently dominate club games because players are properly coached and can deal with the situations. Mayo are not picking from 17 players that is another stupid comment. Mayo had outside their starting another 10-12 players nearly as good as the players who started with the exception of Keegan, Moran, Barrett, Higgins and C O'Connor. Dublin like Mayo have some players who are near impossible to replace, Cluxton, Cian O'Sullivan, Mick Fitz, Dean Rock. The other can be replaced but not by better players but by very good players.
    As for Tyrone this year I said it already they were not up for this game with Dublin. Things were not good in their camp. I believe it was a mistake for Mickey Harte to stay and he only stayed because Peter the great is not ready yet.

    I know a number of Dublin lads who tried out for A.F.L and simply didnt make it. Kerry have produced a number of exceptional players with great fielding ability as have Mayo, Galway and Cork. Dublin are not producing the massive big ball winning player but more all round. As the A.F.L changes in coming years you will see more of a spread of going over not necessarily big bungalow heads as their game becomes a little physical

    This nonsense about dublins bench winning games sounds lovely, and indeed many dublin fans nod and just agree with it. It is nonsense though, quality fresh legs help but the reason dublin win the tight games (almost all of them) and pull away in the others is much more about game management.

    How often have you heard people come out with the nonsense thatit was very even for the first 60/50/30 minutes until the subs came on. The first part of the game is control, take as long as it takes but get control. After that you can make hay. It doesnt matter if you get control in the 20th minute and win by 10 or in the last minute and win by 1 but you need to have it to win consistently. Dublin learned a great lesson when Donegal ambushed them, all out attack looks great for the fans but you'll win more and more often if you can manage the game effectively .

    We'd one poster talking earlier about how dublin beat Tyrone this year by being as athletic and then just stronger. Anyone who was at that game will tell you thats pure tripe. That semi was a fine example of game management working almost perfectly, to the point where a decent Tyrone team were made to look much poorer than they are. No shame in that Tyrone were in the recent past a team that could do the same to the extent that even technically better players were run ragged at times.

    Bottom line a team doesnt win that many tight games if theres only the "kick of a ball' between them and the opposition. Regardless of the sport thats not a resource thing or a better bench thing, its a way of thinking about a game thing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,393 ✭✭✭ Jaden


    tritium wrote: »
    This nonsense about dublins bench winning games sounds lovely, and indeed many dublin fans nod and just agree with it. It is nonsense though, quality fresh legs help but the reason dublin win the tight games (almost all of them) and pull away in the others is much more about game management.

    Nail. On. Head.

    And it's not even evident at Senior Inter County. Look at the Dublin County Final recently - Vinny's game management wasn't pretty, but it was effective.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,958 ✭✭✭ Dots1982


    The counter-argument to that is being able to keep Connolly as an emergency go-to option is quite incredible and galling for other counties.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,382 ✭✭✭ tritium


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    The counter-argument to that is being able to keep Connolly as an emergency go-to option is quite incredible and galling for other counties.

    Except Connolly is widely regarded as one of dublins best players. Keeping him as a sub isn't so much having a strong bench as knowingly holding your best in reserve at the expense of you starting team strength. Which goes back to the concept of game management. The analogy would be benching Lee Keegan with the intent of giving him greater impact later on in the game even though it meant starting out weaker.

    (it also demonstrated a lot of faith in younger players who werent particularly household names at the start of the championship)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,893 ✭✭✭ MayoAreMagic


    blanch152 wrote: »
    If you look at your own link, there are another 6 Dublin players who tried but didn't make it.

    Numbers look much more normal when you include them.

    Not in the modern era since Dublin got all that money from the sports council there isn't.

    As for the idea that Kilkenny didn't make it, or mccaffrey didn't make it, well that is what Im trying to discuss. All evidence suggests they had plenty of admirers in the game, yet they either didn't go, or did and came home. Now maybe mccaffrey wanted to be a doctor, fair enough. But it is still a strange quirk, no doubt about it, and well worth debating. Whether you want to hear it or not, I couldn't really care less.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,893 ✭✭✭ MayoAreMagic


    Gael85 wrote: »
    That poster is not from mayo. He post about Dublin all the time and knows little about mayo other than their senior football team.

    Nonsense, plan and simple.
    As for the above, surely a blatant example of playing the man?


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭ Bonniedog


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    The counter-argument to that is being able to keep Connolly as an emergency go-to option is quite incredible and galling for other counties.


    Gavin could maybe get the team bus to run over his foot, just to even things up :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,893 ✭✭✭ MayoAreMagic


    LeoB wrote: »
    It is none of your business whether he works or not. I know when I was looking him for something last year he was working. He spent a few hours in a hospital instead a few days later. It is no indicator at all.
    Darren O'Sullivan gave up work to concentrate on G.A.A. How was he paid or who looked after him. Do you have an issue with that?
    If you spoke to a few of the Mayo players they would tell what Dublin players do and dont do as a few of them are in D.C.U. or from Coppers:)

    You should look at how these lads are selected, who tips off the A.F.L lads about the players coming through? I bet one who tips them off is from Kerry and the other from outside Castlebar.

    You are clutching at straws and quite a bitter poster. You have little or no respect with your attitude. Look for positives in Mayo instead of bashing Dublin. You will get G.A.A. a bad name.

    It is the business of the gaa, an organisation Im a paid up member of, so actually it is my business, and the business of every gaa member.
    I haven't made a single accusation against the guy, I simply pointed out some details which raise questions. We are allowed to have a discussion about it. You are only raising more questions with these responses flying off the handle at the mere suggestion that it seems a little strange. Why are you reacting like that?

    Ah here, tips them off? All they have to do is watch a few college games or the minor matches on tg4 ffs. That is nonsense and you know it. And you say Im clutching at straws? I can find out the best Dublin minors coming that year by just reading a paper ffs.

    As for having respect, respect for who? Guys who post deliberately post disingenuous stuff on message boards, because they don't want people asking questions? Nothing worth respecting there to be honest with you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,382 ✭✭✭ tritium


    .
    I haven't made a single accusation against the guy, I simply pointed out some details which raise questions. We are allowed to have a discussion about it. You are only raising more questions with these responses flying off the handle at the mere suggestion that it seems a little strange. Why are you reacting like that?


    What details raise questions exactly. So far you've put the following out there:

    He went to australia but didnt stay- Why is there a question there, hes given his reasons? I doubt youre willing to call him a liar. Is it any stranger than an athletic mayo panelist for example still being here given the lure of AFL?

    He's a student, what job does he have- his job is listed as full time student. You dont appear to know if he has any part time job, lives at home, whatever? Nor might you be expected to. Being a student certainly seems no odder than 4 or 5 of both the Dublin and mayo panels. Why focus on one but not the rest?

    He was player manager of his college team. Is he paid for that? You don't seem to know. You seemed to believe that was his job at one point but you then were woefully unforthcoming with any details and seem to have shied away from that position.


    So basically youve pointed out a student who's a talented player and would be a prime AFL target. He gave reasons for coming back from oz, and tbh he wouldnt be the first not to make it there. As i said you appear unwilling to call him a liar there. You dont know if he has a separate part time job.

    Basically he fits the profile of a stack of inter county lads. But you've singled him out specifically. Why is that? Why are you so unwilling to extend the same critical view to other young players?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,382 ✭✭✭ tritium


    Not in the modern era since Dublin got all that money from the sports council there isn't.

    As for the idea that Kilkenny didn't make it, or mccaffrey didn't make it, well that is what Im trying to discuss. All evidence suggests they had plenty of admirers in the game, yet they either didn't go, or did and came home. Now maybe mccaffrey wanted to be a doctor, fair enough. But it is still a strange quirk, no doubt about it, and well worth debating. Whether you want to hear it or not, I couldn't really care less.


    Funnily enough when you look at that list its pretty hard to make a case that either Kerry or Mayo are being strip mined by the AFL


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_experiment#List_of_Irish_sportsmen_linked_with_the_VFL.2FAFL

    In spite of you earlier protestation about how those dasterdly Aussies kept kidnapping your finest young lads......

    I already outlined the reason - since Kilkenny was tempted back to Ireland, no other Dublin player has gone to Australia. Im trying to have a discussion around that topic. Namely, how was he tempted back, and what is keeping them all at home when Mayo Kerry and a few more are losing players every second year.
    Surely you would be very naïve to assume it is all just a coincidence and never ask a question? Why so defensive?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,069 ✭✭✭ Gael85


    Nonsense, plan and simple.
    As for the above, surely a blatant example of playing the man?


    It impossible to take you seriously ..You are definitely not from Mayo


  • Registered Users Posts: 294 ✭✭ TrueGael


    LeoB wrote: »
    He played lads in the league last year who showed great promise and then we hardly get to see them.

    From 2011, Philly, Cluxton Mick Fitz, Paul Flynn Bernard Brogan Kevin Mc Diarmuid Connolly. Paul Flynn. Dublin players also have serious miles on the clock but it is policy to blood players in O'Byrne cup and the league and then in championship. It has to be done. Mayo dont do enough of it, from what I see.

    Apart from Cluxton and Philly none of them have been starters all the way through, Mayo,Kerry, Donegal or anyone else has never had or will have such a luxury, the 9 players in the last 2 Finals stat proves the 'once in a generation players' to be a myth

    The population,funding and world class facilities will see to that


    Mayo had 7 same starters in 2011 and 2017 and another 3/4 who have played a fair chunk of Championship minutes in that period, once the Higgins, Boyles + Moran's step away Mayo will become a middle of the road team


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭ Bonniedog


    What is to prevent other counties using the pre season competitions or the league to try out other players, as Gavin does? Or Cody?


    Sticking to same 15/20 come hell or high water was one of reasons that Dublin pre Gilroy fell short. No offence to the chaps but seeing strapped up Senan Connell and Dessie Farrell arriving off the bench was almost admission that the jig was up. And some of players who were key to 2011 never got a chance back then.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,446 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152


    TrueGael wrote: »
    Apart from Cluxton and Philly none of them have been starters all the way through, Mayo,Kerry, Donegal or anyone else has never had or will have such a luxury, the 9 players in the last 2 Finals stat proves the 'once in a generation players' to be a myth

    The population,funding and world class facilities will see to that


    Mayo had 7 same starters in 2011 and 2017 and another 3/4 who have played a fair chunk of Championship minutes in that period, once the Higgins, Boyles + Moran's step away Mayo will become a middle of the road team


    Gavin talks about the 22 and having the best team on the pitch at the end.

    From the 19 players used by Dublin in the 2011 final, 10 of them - Cluxton, MacMahon, O'Sullivan, Fitzsimons, James Mcarthy, Paul Flynn, Eoghan O'Gara, Kevin McManamon, Diarmuid Connolly and Bernard Brogan saw game time in the 2017 final.

    Of the other nine - Rory O'Carroll has emigrated, Kevin Nolan got diabetes and couldn't manage the training, McAuley was injured this year but still made the bench and Bastik has been around the fringes of the squad.

    Five have retired - Alan Brogan, Ger Brennan, Barry Cahill, Bryan Cullen and Eamon Fennell, the latter after serious injury. While a couple of them still play club football, they are too old to feature in 2017.

    Now, what really shows up how wrong you are about this Dublin team is the one that won the 2013 All-Ireland final, the first under Gavin.

    Of that starting team, only two haven't played any part this year - Rory O'Carroll and Ger Brennan. McAuley has been injured but would have at least come on as a sub had he been fully fit.


  • Registered Users Posts: 397 ✭✭ enoughtaken


    blanch152 wrote: »
    TrueGael wrote: »
    Apart from Cluxton and Philly none of them have been starters all the way through, Mayo,Kerry, Donegal or anyone else has never had or will have such a luxury, the 9 players in the last 2 Finals stat proves the 'once in a generation players' to be a myth

    The population,funding and world class facilities will see to that


    Mayo had 7 same starters in 2011 and 2017 and another 3/4 who have played a fair chunk of Championship minutes in that period, once the Higgins, Boyles + Moran's step away Mayo will become a middle of the road team


    Gavin talks about the 22 and having the best team on the pitch at the end.

    From the 19 players used by Dublin in the 2011 final, 10 of them - Cluxton, MacMahon, O'Sullivan, Fitzsimons, James Mcarthy, Paul Flynn, Eoghan O'Gara, Kevin McManamon, Diarmuid Connolly and Bernard Brogan saw game time in the 2017 final.

    Of the other nine - Rory O'Carroll has emigrated, Kevin Nolan got diabetes and couldn't manage the training, McAuley was injured this year but still made the bench and Bastik has been around the fringes of the squad.

    Five have retired - Alan Brogan, Ger Brennan, Barry Cahill, Bryan Cullen and Eamon Fennell, the latter after serious injury. While a couple of them still play club football, they are too old to feature in 2017.

    Now, what really shows up how wrong you are about this Dublin team is the one that won the 2013 All-Ireland final, the first under Gavin.

    Of that starting team, only two haven't played any part this year - Rory O'Carroll and Ger Brennan. McAuley has been injured but would have at least come on as a sub had he been fully fit.


    I’m not a dub but I presume u do realize ur dealing with podge and rodge here. They pop up in every forum.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,250 ✭✭✭ LeoB


    It is the business of the gaa, an organisation Im a paid up member of, so actually it is my business, and the business of every gaa member.
    I haven't made a single accusation against the guy, I simply pointed out some details which raise questions. We are allowed to have a discussion about it. You are only raising more questions with these responses flying off the handle at the mere suggestion that it seems a little strange. Why are you reacting like that?

    Ah here, tips them off? All they have to do is watch a few college games or the minor matches on tg4 ffs. That is nonsense and you know it. And you say Im clutching at straws? I can find out the best Dublin minors coming that year by just reading a paper ffs.

    As for having respect, respect for who? Guys who post deliberately post disingenuous stuff on message boards, because they don't want people asking questions? Nothing worth respecting there to be honest with you.

    It is neither the business of the GAA or you what he does or or how he earns a living so long as it legal. Im a member of the GAA also and it is none of my business what he does either.

    He was not going to make it in Australia and he came home, simple as. You are being nosey and trying to stir an empty pot. As did hundreds of players from English premier league clubs. When they said they were homesick a lot of us me included laughed at them. Coming home to play L.O.I soccer or whatever. You seem to be trying to get at something illegal or untoward took place to get him home.

    These people from Australia dont watch TG4 or read papers to see who the best minors are. They have people, if you dig a little deeper who tell them who is who and who has the potential. I wouldnt have thought CK had the potential. James McCarthy yes. Mayo had Keith Higgins and possibly Keegan who would have done well over there.

    I could make serious allegations about a few Mayo players which would raise questions about their honesty and integrity. That would be wrong of me, (if I didnt have facts to back it up) but narrow minded people would have a field day with them and that would also be wrong. If you are that concerned you should put it writing to the CCCC or whatever committee laden with people who would investigate your concerns.

    Or phone Joe.... The liveline is open now

    Finally on a serious note. I think some of the posts are pathetic and just mischievous. The GAA is better than that and so are most of its members. You and a few other Mayo lads should look for some positives and ideas to bring your county forward. As it sits you are turning people off them great lads who wear the green and red in your name


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,446 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152


    It is the business of the gaa, an organisation Im a paid up member of, so actually it is my business, and the business of every gaa member.
    I haven't made a single accusation against the guy, I simply pointed out some details which raise questions. We are allowed to have a discussion about it. You are only raising more questions with these responses flying off the handle at the mere suggestion that it seems a little strange. Why are you reacting like that?

    Ah here, tips them off? All they have to do is watch a few college games or the minor matches on tg4 ffs. That is nonsense and you know it. And you say Im clutching at straws? I can find out the best Dublin minors coming that year by just reading a paper ffs.

    As for having respect, respect for who? Guys who post deliberately post disingenuous stuff on message boards, because they don't want people asking questions? Nothing worth respecting there to be honest with you.

    Except there is nothing strange about it. He is just like every other student playing with every other county.

    You are making snide underhand accusations against the man.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,446 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152


    LeoB wrote: »
    Finally on a serious note. I think some of the posts are pathetic and just mischievous. The GAA is better than that and so are most of its members. You and a few other Mayo lads should look for some positives and ideas to bring your county forward. As it sits you are turning people off them great lads who wear the green and red in your name

    I have a good friend from Mayo and another Dub friend whose father is from Mayo. They would be nothing like the Mayo supporters on here.

    If I only knew Mayo fans online I would be completely turned off them by the type of rubbish I see posted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭ Bonniedog


    MAM clearly insinuated that Kilkenny came back for financial reasons. Pretty serious allegation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,528 ✭✭✭ ArielAtom


    Bonniedog wrote: »
    MAM clearly insinuated that Kilkenny came back for financial reasons. Pretty serious allegation.
    You are correct, I think he used the words enticed. Anyway let himself and real one off, not worth the hassle. Although their rantings have kept me amused.


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