JFK Files

Charmeleon

Your post is completely incorrect, he said he never heard anything about Oswald until after the Assassination. Read his testimony carefully. He was a mere bookkeeper and claims a CIA employee just walked up to him looking for money for Oswald or the ‘the Oswald project’ and he heard some speculation at parties. He had no direct evidence for any of his claims and was deemed to lack any credibility.

Tipsy McSwagger

I would take hearsay over concrete evidence any day of the week

Cheerful Spring

Charmeleon wrote: »

Your post is completely incorrect, he said he never heard anything about Oswald until after the Assassination. Read his testimony carefully. He was a mere bookkeeper and claims a CIA employee just walked up to him looking for money for Oswald or the ‘the Oswald project’ and he heard some speculation at parties. He had no direct evidence for any of his claims and was deemed to lack any credibility.

False and not unusual this is common practice among the Skeptics. They provide no evidence whatsoever James Wilcott was unreliable. They just throw the untrustworthy thing out there and hope it works!

Should we ignore the American government called him to testify secretly and only decades later what he said is known?

Do you have a brain? How would he know about Oswald before the assassination? Obviously a man who just shot the President would be a topic of discussion after the fact. He was the chief accountant at the Toyko CIA station, i believe. What difference does it make if he was a just a ordinary accountant at the CIA? He in the right job to hear things about Oswald after the shooting.

Wilcott
At first I thought ‘These guys are nuts,’” he said, “but then a man I knew and had worked with before showed up to take a disbursement and told me Lee Harvey Oswald was a CIA employee. I didn’t believe him until he told me the cryptonym under which Oswald had drawn funds when he returned from Russia to the U.S

“It was common knowledge in the Tokyo CIA station that Oswald worked for the agency.”

[Oswald] had been trained [by the CIA] at Atsugi Naval Air Station, a plush super secret cover base for Tokyo Station special operations...

Tipsy McSwagger

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

False and not unusual this is common practice among the Skeptics. They provide no evidence whatsoever James Wilcott was unreliable. They just throw the untrustworthy thing out there and hope it works!

Should we ignore the American government called him to testify secretly and only decades later what he said is known?

Do you have a brain? How would he know about Oswald before the assassination? Obviously a man who just shot the President would be a topic of discussion after the fact. He was the chief accountant at the Toyko CIA station, i believe. What difference does it make if he was a just a ordinary accountant at the CIA? He in the right job to hear things about Oswald after the shooting.

Wilcott
At first I thought ‘These guys are nuts,’” he said, “but then a man I knew and had worked with before showed up to take a disbursement and told me Lee Harvey Oswald was a CIA employee. I didn’t believe him until he told me the cryptonym under which Oswald had drawn funds when he returned from Russia to the U.S

“It was common knowledge in the Tokyo CIA station that Oswald worked for the agency.”

[Oswald] had been trained [by the CIA] at Atsugi Naval Air Station, a plush super secret cover base for Tokyo Station special operations...

He testified in front of the HSCA and it was reported what he said in the New York Times on Mar 27 1978.

Cheerful Spring

If Oswald was a lonely nut of no interest before the assassination. You have to wonder why J Edgar hoover, the most powerful police official in the country of the United States, would be concerned someone was stealing Oswald identity in 1960

Cheerful Spring

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

He testified in front of the HSCA and it was reported what he said in the New York Times on Mar 27 1978.

Some of his testimony was redacted back then. It came out in full yesterday no redaction's.

Charmeleon

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

False and not unusual this is common practice among the Skeptics. They provide no evidence whatsoever James Wilcott was unreliable. They just throw the untrustworthy thing out there and hope it works!

Pg. 200 of the HSCA report ‘the committee concluded that Wilcott’s allegation was not worthy of belief’. He specifically named a person who discussed Oswald being a CIA agent with him in Japan after the assassination, that person had left Japan the year before the assassination.

But you have to wonder about the top officials in the CIA sending someone down to a nobody in accounts to ask for a few bob for the JFK Assassination Project a couple of months after the event.

The guy is an admitted crank who was caught out when they asked him why he didn’t go to the Warren Commission with this information. He had already pre-judged the Commission before it had barely started. A book keeper in the CIA knew all this about Oswald and the Warren Commission itself?!

Should we ignore the American government called him to testify secretly and only decades later what he said is known?

Do you have a brain? How would he know about Oswald before the assassination? Obviously a man who just shot the President would be a topic of discussion after the fact. He was the chief accountant at the Toyko CIA station, i believe. What difference does it make if he was a just a ordinary accountant at the CIA? He in the right job to hear things about Oswald after the shooting.

So you think it likely that Bob in accounts in a foreign outpost of the CIA is likely to be privy to the ‘Assassinate the President Project’?
Jaysus wept.

Cheerful Spring

Oswald traveling to the Soviet Union and nobody stopping him is a huge red flag. This is not just a guy working in a bakery or doing an ordinary job. Oswald was a marine who had secret knowledge. He was stationed at a CIA base where secret U-2 flights over Russia, took off. To go the Soviet Union during the cold war is a major deal. Oswald life is a big red flag and amazes me people still believe the Warren Commission report.

And by the way people the American government has two different versions of what happened.

Warren Commission: Just Oswald alone, no help.
HSCA: Oswald had help likely Mob/Mafia second shooter.

No government funded investigation is going to blame the CIA for the killing. Evidence a maverick CIA or higher group killed Kennedy and covered it up and still do there is a strong case to be made for this.

Tipsy McSwagger

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Oswald traveling to the Soviet Union and nobody stopping him is a huge red flag. This is not just a guy working in a bakery or doing an ordinary job. Oswald was a marine who had secret knowledge. He was stationed at a CIA base where secret U-2 flights over Russia, took off. To go the Soviet Union during the cold war is a major deal. Oswald life is a big red flag and amazes me people still believe the Warren Commission report.

And by the way people the American government has two different versions of what happened.

Warren Commission: Just Oswald alone, no help.
HSCA: Oswald had help likely Mob/Mafia second shooter.

No government funded investigation is going to blame the CIA for the killing. Evidence a maverick CIA or higher group killed Kennedy and covered it up and still do there is a strong case to be made for this.

Could you provide proof of this ?

Cheerful Spring

Charmeleon wrote: »

Pg. 200 of the HSCA report ‘the committee concluded that Wilcott’s allegation was not worthy of belief’. He specifically named a person who discussed Oswald being a CIA agent with him in Japan after the assassination, that person had left Japan the year before the assassination

Where you locate this reference Pg200 and like to know to check this? If the CIA person named by James Wilcott was a real person working for the agency. Why did they not bring him in and ask was the information James Wilcott gave us correct?


The guy is an admitted crank ( False) I wait on where you located this pg200 reference. I see no mention online of James Wilcott was found to be liar and had unreliable information.

He was employed by the CIA. He could not just testify at the Warren Commission and he clearly said he was afraid to speak about this to anyone till 1978. Even then his testimony was given behind closed doors, no cameras.

Cheerful Spring

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

Could you provide proof of this ?

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/report/html/HSCA_Report_0005a.htm

Marked B and C.



Marked 4 You see mention of Organized crime members involvement with the killing.

Tipsy McSwagger

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/report/html/HSCA_Report_0005a.htm

Marked B and C.



Marked 4 You see mention of Organized crime members involvement with the killing.

Your talking crap as usual. It says it doesn’t preclude that individual members might have been involved. You are stating it as fact that the mob was involved. It’s a moot point anyway as the HSCA based a conspiracy on a fourth shot that was later proven to be false.

Cheerful Spring

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

Your talking crap as usual. It says it doesn’t preclude that individual members might have been involved. You are stating it as fact that the mob was involved. It’s a moot point anyway as the HSCA based a conspiracy on a fourth shot that was later proven to be false.

Can you not read now? "The committee on the basis of evidence available to it, the president was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy The committee is unable to identify the gunman or the extent of the conspiracy.

Those are final findings of HSCA so cry somewhere else.

Based on the evidence they believed mob members are involved. What difference does it make if they could not find undeniable proof the crime boss sanctioned the hit? They are people involved in organised crime. Sometimes i feel like i am talking to 5 years old kids..

The 4th shot was not proven to be false. JFK Skeptics claim the difference in sound/pulses could be the result of an echo. Hard to say either way who is right.

Charmeleon

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Can you not read now? "The committee on the basis of evidence available to it, the president was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy The committee is unable to identify the gunman or the extent of the conspiracy.

Those are final findings of HSCA so cry somewhere else.

Based on the evidence they believed mob members are involved. What difference does it make if they could not find undeniable proof the crime boss sanctioned the hit? They are people involved in organised crime. Sometimes i feel like i am talking to 5 years old kids..

The 4th shot was not proven to be false. JFK Skeptics claim the difference in sound/pulses could be the result of an echo. Hard to say either way who is right.

Did you not hear that a voice was later heard on the recording that was identified as happening at least one minute after the shooting ended? The motorcycle was also a three-wheeler traveling too fast to be in the motorcade plus McClain, who was supposed to have the open mic, was not in the position the calculations depended on.

The fourth shot is a fantasy of bad science.

The Nal

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Can you not read now? "The committee on the basis of evidence available to it, the president was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy The committee is unable to identify the gunman or the extent of the conspiracy.

Those are final findings of HSCA so cry somewhere else.

Based on the evidence they believed mob members are involved. What difference does it make if they could not find undeniable proof the crime boss sanctioned the hit? They are people involved in organised crime. Sometimes i feel like i am talking to 5 years old kids..

The 4th shot was not proven to be false. JFK Skeptics claim the difference in sound/pulses could be the result of an echo. Hard to say either way who is right.

The HSCA's "president was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy" was based entirely on the acoustic evidence which was proved as false in 1980. McLains bike had to be in one specific area which it was not.

So, based on the above being proved as false, the HSCAs final findings actually are:

- Oswald fired 3 shots. 2nd and 3rd shots hit JFK
- The Soviet Government was not involved
- The Cuban Government was not involved
- They agree with the single-bullet theory

Cheerful Spring

The Nal wrote: »

The HSCA's "president was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy" was based entirely on the acoustic evidence which was proved as false in 1980. McLains bike had to be in one specific area which it was not.

So, based on the above being proved as false, the HSCAs final findings actually are:

- Oswald fired 3 shots. 2nd and 3rd shots hit JFK
- The Soviet Government was not involved
- The Cuban Government was not involved
- They agree with the single-bullet theory

You continue to lie. HSCA stated it was a probable conspiracy and the HSCA said there was likely a second shooter shooting at Kennedy. It also false to say the acoustic evidence was the only reason they thought there was a second shooter. Eyewitness testimony was the main reason. High ranking mob members testified to be knowingly part of the conspiracy to kill Kennedy

Johnny Roselli testified for a brief time at the HSCA and was ordered to reappear for a second time to testify. He was murdered and this never happened, his body was found in a steel drum. John Roselli was a high ranking mobster who was the go between (facilitator) for the CIA and the Mob.

A researcher in 1996 found evidence in the National Archives the police found other bullets at the scene. The researcher found an empty envelope in a security JFK file. It was dated 12/2/63 bullet casing 7.65 shell. So where is this shell casing today? Should we ignore it well documented the FBI and CIA have delibarately destroyed JFK files for years, but you want me to believe Oswald was just a crazy guy, on his own shooting at the president?

The Nal

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

You continue to lie. HSCA stated it was a probable conspiracy and the HSCA said there was likely a second shooter shooting at Kennedy. It also false to say the acoustic evidence was the only reason they thought there was a second shooter. Eyewitness testimony was the main reason

Evidence of that please? Where did the HSCA state that was the main reason?

Also, Johnny "fired from the drain" Roselli. Youre going there? Really?

Cheerful Spring

The Nal wrote: »

Evidence of that please? Where did the HSCA state that was the main reason?

Also, Johnny "fired from the drain" Roselli. Youre going there? Really?

Are you now going to now claim this statement was not accurate?


Interviewing of Select Committee members. Frank Church was the chairman of the HSCA and he like others openly talk about the mob connection, and the anti Castro operations findings, was most significant part and reason to believe there was a probable conspiracy to kill Kennedy.


It now fully established the CIA and FBI did not reveal to the Warren Commission of CIA plots to kill Castro. This is important for many reasons, one reason, as the CIA was using mob/mafia hit men to carry out secret killings for them. This non disclosure stopped other avenues of investigation back then. The men involved in anti Castro operations potentially maybe conspired to kill Kennedy? The CIA Richard Helms under oath in 1978, openly did not deny the US government intelligence agencies worked with organised crime groups to kill Castro.

Cheerful Spring

Also, Johnny "fired from the drain" Roselli. Youre going there? Really?

Explain yourself? Are not going to claim Roselli was not a Mob figure or had connections with the CIA?

The Nal

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Are you now going to now claim this statement was not accurate?

So their conclusions based on the evidence is that it wasnt the mob and there was a 4th shot based on the acoustic evidence which has since been proved as false.

I asked you to provide evidence that their conclusions of conspiracy was mainly based on eye witness testimony rather than the acoustic evidence. Where did they say that?

And yeah Roselli had CIA connections. So what? Everyone knows the CIA were trying to kill Castro and were using the mob to help.

Cheerful Spring

The Nal wrote: »

So their conclusions based on the evidence is that it wasnt the mob and there was a 4th shot based on the acoustic evidence which has since been proved as false.

I asked you to provide evidence that their conclusions of conspiracy was mainly based on eye witness testimony. Where did they say that?

And yeah Roselli had CIA connections. So what? Everyone knows the CIA were trying to kill Castro and were using the mob to help.

Maybe you just blind, ignorant or stubborn struggling to understand you? National Syndicate of organised crime! Maybe you don't understand the meaning of this? I will explain. They saw no evidence linking organised crime families collectively nationwide with the plot to kill Kennedy. The Mafia/mob families divide up territory inside the United States. I don't believe this either all crime families knew of the plot. This would be a nightmare to control and prevent leakage of information.

It amazing you just bypassed the part, the committee does exclude the possibility other that Individual members of the mob, mafia may have been involved. The committee was open to the possibility of a single crime family with individual members pertaining in an operation to kill Kennedy.

The Nal

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Maybe you just blind, ignorant or stubborn struggling to understand you? National Syndicate of organised crime! Maybe you don't understand the meaning of this? I will explain. They saw no evidence linking organised crime families collectively nationwide with the plot to kill Kennedy. The Mafia/mob families divide up territory inside the United States. I don't believe this either all crime families knew of the plot. This would be a nightmare to control and prevent leakage of information.

It amazing you just bypassed the part, the committee does exclude the possibility other that Individual members of the mob, mafia may have been involved. The committee was open to the possibility of a single crime family with individual members pertaining in an operation to kill Kennedy.

Yep course its possible that one of the families or people did it. Its like saying its impossible to prove that god doesnt exist. He might do. We cant rule out someone in the KKK on those grounds either. Or my grandad. Theres no evidence for it but its possible.

However that was based on a 4th shot (which they say missed) thats been since proved impossible on their evidence.

So third time of asking, where did they say conclusions of conspiracy were mainly based on eye witness testimony as you claimed?

Cheerful Spring

The Nal wrote: »

Yep course its possible that one of the families or people did it. Its like saying its impossible to prove that god doesnt exist. He might do. We cant rule out someone in the KKK on those grounds either. Or my grandad. Theres no evidence for it but its possible.

However that was based on a 4th shot (which they say missed) thats been since proved impossible on their evidence.

So third time of asking, where did they say conclusions of conspiracy were mainly based on eye witness testimony as you claimed?

The committee blamed the mafia/mob because an expert told the commission he heard 4 shots? Do you not realize how ridiculous this sounds? The mob connection came by way of Witness testimony ( from both sides against and for the conspiracy) and from newly released previously secret documentation. I think i explained this already? The Warren Commission (1964) as a whole was not aware of CIA plots to kill Castro.

The Nal

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

The committee blamed the mafia/mob because an expert told the commission he heard 4 shots? Do you not realize how ridiculous this sounds? The mob connection came by way of Witness testimony ( from both sides against and for the conspiracy) and from newly released previously secret documentation. I think i explained this already? The Warren Commission (1964) as a whole was not aware of CIA plots to kill Castro.

They didnt blame the mob. Their conclusions were that it wasnt the mob or anyone in the mob. As per the screenshot you posted above. Same for anti Castro groups.

4th time of asking - where did they say that conclusions of conspiracy was mainly based on eye witness testimony?

The Nal

So 54 years later now, files released and........... its still Oswald.

Great podcast here with Gerald Posner from this week.

Conspiracy theorists hide!

https://soundcloud.com/freespeechbroadcasting/2017-11-19-2-gerald-posner

The Nal

About the most exciting thing to come from the JFK files

Inside the CIA’s Plot to Kill Fidel Castro—With Mafia Help

https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...ia-plot-216977

DEFTLEFTHAND

The Nal wrote: »

About the most exciting thing to come from the JFK files

Inside the CIA’s Plot to Kill Fidel Castro—With Mafia Help

https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...ia-plot-216977

That's been known for years. They wanted Santo Trafficante's group to do it in exhange for getting his son and underboss out of jail in Cuba and a promise to ignore the activities of the Trafficante mob in Florida.

They supposedly agreed but could never pull it off. Trafficante of course had major business interests in the Cuban Casinos so had good reason to want Castro gone.


Don't think the other mob families on the Mafia Commission took too kindly to Trafficante working with the government though.

Hector Bellend

The Nal wrote: »

So 54 years later now, files released and........... its still Oswald.

Great podcast here with Gerald Posner from this week.

Conspiracy theorists hide!

https://soundcloud.com/freespeechbroadcasting/2017-11-19-2-gerald-posner

Gerald Posner strikes me as a yes man.

The Nal

Hector Bellend wrote: »

Gerald Posner strikes me as a yes man.

A yes man to who?

Cheerful Spring

The Nal wrote: »

About the most exciting thing to come from the JFK files

Inside the CIA’s Plot to Kill Fidel Castro—With Mafia Help

https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...ia-plot-216977

The JFK files are waste of time. CIA was given the time to censor information they did not want to be released to the public. The files are propaganda now directed against Russia.


This is known for 20 years the CIA hired the Mafia to carry out hits against Cuban officials and Castro. Old rehashed news.