Home Generator

sunnyday1234

listermint wrote: »

OK so you don't want the switch.

I would recommend it though it's simple and cheap to do handier in storm conditions.

That Gen looks crap tbh it's a site Gen for plugging in tools etc and radios.

This would be more up your alley

https://ie.wellindal.com/diy/einhell/p-45223?r=4006825589399&gclid=Cj0KCQjwvabPBRD5ARIsAIwFXBnrQK7YaxWbABafCRK2BMsHN6HfICAUSm5JgV4d9e9YpX7upNln8DUaAsfrEALw_wcB


Those plastic gens have max run limits where they have to be turned off for Some time to cool down. Be conscious of such requirements with any purchase

how do you propose i run the cable from where the generator will be running to my fuse box ? i have a patio and tarmac back yard. I do have power going to the shed but thats connected into a socket in the conservatory - not to the fuse box

that generator isnt an inverter - would it damage my electronics ? Its very cheap

sunnyday1234

FishOnABike wrote: »

Are all these going to be in one room connected to the one extension lead ?

multiple extension leads

Jakey Rolling

sunnyday1234 wrote: »

power gone again this morning so ordering this one on monday. I cant justify getting one wired to the grid even though it would be fantastic. I will start with the method of running extension leads for now and see then

what ye think of this one ? gets great reviews

http://www.championgenerators.co.uk/Shop/champion-generators/uk-generators/silent-inverter-generators/cpe-3100-watt-inverter-generator-euro

Great find, hadn't seen this model in my searches. I could do with something with a smoother output, that won't damage the TV! The wireless start would also be an improvement on heading out to the garage in foul weather. 8 hour runtime on low load isn't too bad.

I see a couple of stockists up north but they only have the 1000W model listed. Where did you order yours and what price did they quote you?

brock92

https://www.generators-direct.co.uk/search?search_term=champion+generator&gclid=CjwKCAjw4KvPBRBeEiwAIqCB-UNwrEImM3Oxph6EuiLv8twHF5DLHRVglgwVji1s1mVoiuTeXwwUNRoCmK4QAvD_BwE

Don't know how much delivery costs, you would need to contact them

quietsailor

I've been batting this idea back & forth with a friend of mine who sells big generators (too big for home use so no point in asking me for his name - sorry) & what we came up with is that it's not just a case of banging in a generator - here's the stuff most homeowners wouldn't deal with or understand. It’s for every house owner that looks up this thread, not just the OP in particular as they have an understanding of some of this stuff.

1. Most of our household equipment is rated in KW (Kilowatts). You add all the KW ratings together to get the total load.
HOWEVER
Kw is the makers theoretical electrical requirement for their machine – it’s the power needed when brand new in a factory test with no wear and tear and an electrically perfect setup when tested in the factory, the reality in our houses is that the machines wear, machines get old, there will be power losses in the wiring - That difference is called the Power Factor (PF)
Generators being sold are often rated in KiloVoltAmps (kVA) - that's the actual real life energy needed to run your old machine in the non-perfect setting

KiloVoltAmps = Kilowatts/Power Factor. PF is usually 0.8 to 0.95 (perfect theoretical world is 1.0 so to run 10kW of load you need a generator sized at;
kVA = 10kW / 0.8 = 12.5kVA
He said to beware of salesman trying to push a (for example) 10kW generator on you for a 10kW load - it probably won't be able to run what you want.


2. HP is the old imperial version of KW – 1Hp = 0.75kW
To give you an idea, a bungalow in the country that has a well will probably have a half hp well pump – 0.5hp = 0.37 KW


3. Then to throw another name in the mix – our fuse boards/distribution boards are rated in Amps (A) – we have a 63A main fuse, our socket circuits are usually a 20A MCB (Mains Circuit Breaker), an electric shower will be a 40A MCB and a cooker 32A MCB. To convert from kW to Amps requires that Power Factor again – something 99% of householders won’t be able to measure.
Rough rule of thumb 10Amps = 2Kw
kW = {Power Factor X Amps X Volts } / 1000 kW = [0.85 X 10 X 230 ] / 1000


4. Some generators are not suited to running machines with delicate electronics. There may be voltage spikes or frequency spikes. The cheap ones that supply dirty electricity ie irregular voltage or frequency – are fine for running simple items like drills, well pump motors, kettles but look at all the electronically controlled equipment in our houses today;

Fridge/freezers
Boilers
Heat pumps
Washing machines
TV’s plus consoles, hifi gear, DVD player etc
PC’s laptops, broadband routers

The cheap generator may end up damaging these and cost you more money again after the 1st blackout


5. It's going to be a pig at half eight or a wet stormy evening to be;
Pulling out cabinets/fridges to get at plugs,

To be running extension leads through the house to the various rooms in such a way they don't trip people or worse, get cut when a door slams close on them.

You need a very understanding partner to be understand that only certain things can be ran at the same time; for example if you want to boil the kettle while the boiler is running the children can't watch tv


6. That same understanding partner might not be quite as understanding if you’re not at home when the power cuts out – the power outage took our nearest mobile phone tower as well so my wife couldn’t ring me for help – they will need to understand all of the above or at least understand that the generator is limited in power so there will be no electric showers, no electric cooker and the normal big kettle can’t be used. They’ll need to know what plugs to unplug and replug into the generator.


7. The generator needs to be easily started – my wife is pregnant and couldn’t be pulling on a starter cord so it has to be an electrical starter.

Basically the person buying the generator needs to understand points 1-4 and, taking them into account;

1. look at their house and work out what is essential – both to live and to keep all occupants happy!
2. Add up the load in kW and divide by 0.8 to get kVA.
3. Add on 5-10% “just in case” room

Then buy a generator that has that rating in kW or kVA

Then you need to be able to explain to everyone else in the house about points 5-7 and get hem to accept them.

2011

quietsailor wrote: »

KiloVoltAmps = Kilowatts/Power Factor. PF is usually 0.8 to 0.95

Most large loads in a house are unity (or so close to unity that it makes no difference) power factor, such as an electric oven, electric hob or instantaneous shower.
A motor maybe 0.9 or 0.8 but there aren't very many motors in a house that are large enough to be concerned.

He said to beware of salesman trying to push a (for example) 10kW generator on you for a 10kW load - it probably won't be able to run what you want.

This applies more to industry where there are many DOL motors with power factor in the region of 0.9 (motors on VSDs are corrected to unity power factor by the VSD) and high starting currents.

2. HP is the old imperial version of KW – 1Hp = 0.75kW
To give you an idea, a bungalow in the country that has a well will probably have a half hp well pump – 0.5hp = 0.37 KW

So overall a small load that will have little impact on the overall power factor.

3. Then to throw another name in the mix – our fuse boards/distribution boards are rated in Amps (A) – we have a 63A main fuse, our socket circuits are usually a 20A MCB (Mains Circuit Breaker), an electric shower will be a 40A MCB and a cooker 32A MCB. To convert from kW to Amps requires that Power Factor again – something 99% of householders won’t be able to measure.

That is what the devices are rated for, not necessarily what the land is drawing. A cooker will rarely draw 32A.

Some generators are not suited to running machines with delicate electronics. There may be voltage spikes or frequency spikes. The cheap ones that supply dirty electricity ie irregular voltage or frequency

True, you get what you pay for.
I like Honda's myself.

5. It's going to be a pig at half eight or a wet stormy evening to be;
Pulling out cabinets/fridges to get at plugs,

To be running extension leads through the house to the various rooms in such a way they don't trip people or worse, get cut when a door slams close on them.

Agreed, this is why so many have changeover switches installed especially in rural areas where loss of supply is more common.

for example if you want to boil the kettle while the boiler is running the children can't watch tv

I would suggest using gas rather than electricity to boil a kettle when using a small generator, but I get your point.

sunnyday1234

Jakey Rolling wrote: »

Great find, hadn't seen this model in my searches. I could do with something with a smoother output, that won't damage the TV! The wireless start would also be an improvement on heading out to the garage in foul weather. 8 hour runtime on low load isn't too bad.

I see a couple of stockists up north but they only have the 1000W model listed. Where did you order yours and what price did they quote you?

These guys said they have it for 690 sterling plus 30 deliver to south so about 800 euro

info@gosfordequipment.com

exaisle

my3cents wrote: »

Perfectly good idea. The change over switch idea is total over kill. At least with a lead into the house its obvious what is plugged into it reducing the chance of overloading.

I beg to differ. The changeover switch removes the possibility of human error.

You just need one moment of carelessness to do serious damage to property....and possibly to people.

sunnyday1234

quietsailor wrote: »

5. It's going to be a pig at half eight or a wet stormy evening to be;
Pulling out cabinets/fridges to get at plugs,

To be running extension leads through the house to the various rooms in such a way they don't trip people or worse, get cut when a door slams close on them.

You need a very understanding partner to be understand that only certain things can be ran at the same time; for example if you want to boil the kettle while the boiler is running the children can't watch tv


6. That same understanding partner might not be quite as understanding if you’re not at home when the power cuts out – the power outage took our nearest mobile phone tower as well so my wife couldn’t ring me for help – they will need to understand all of the above or at least understand that the generator is limited in power so there will be no electric showers, no electric cooker and the normal big kettle can’t be used. They’ll need to know what plugs to unplug and replug into the generator.


.

not sure what kind of partners ye guys have :-) but when i told my missus that if i bought a generator we would be able to power the fridge and the tv and charge her phone then she was delighted.

I know running power leads all over wont be ideal but again, compared to the current situation its well worth the hassle

2011

sunnyday1234 wrote: »

I know running power leads all over wont be ideal but again, compared to the current situation its well worth the hassle

You are best off not guntering when it comes to mains electricity, even if you think it will save you a few bob.

sunnyday1234

do ye guys have any recommendation on a small portable gas heater / hob combo ? i have no experience of those so not sure how they work

i would like something cheap as it would only be used during a power outage

sunnyday1234

2011 wrote: »

You are best off not guntering when it comes to mains electricity, even if you think it will save you a few bob.

not sure i understand what you mean, guntering ?

also what do you mean by mains electricity - the devices will be plugged out of the main and into the generator

2011

sunnyday1234 wrote: »

not sure i understand what you mean, guntering ?

The generator will be outside, the devices you want to power will be inside. Therefore you will have leads passing through windows / doors for a period of time. For some people this could be for a number of weeks. Therefore there is an increased risk of electric shock / electrocution.

also what do you mean by mains electricity

Mains voltage, in other words a potentially lethal voltage.

Jakey Rolling

All good info there quietsailor.
One pedantic correction - the Power Factor is a measure of the phase lag between current and voltage in an AC circuit. It is generally less than 1.0 due to inductive loads i.e. motors, power supplies, anything with a coil in it.

my3cents

exaisle wrote: »

I beg to differ. The changeover switch removes the possibility of human error.

You just need one moment of carelessness to do serious damage to property....and possibly to people.

How exactly are you going to be careless plugging in and unplugging an appliance?

Are you likely to kill yourself next time you plug your freezer in? Careful its a dangerous world out there when you get out from behind that keyboard.

quietsailor

He’s been telling me about the options available to me from the smallest /cheapest (1) to biggest/most expensive ( )

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE WIRE A GENERATOR TO THE HOUSE FUSEBOARD, EVEN TEMPORARILY WITHOUT A CHANGEOVER SWITCH. The electricity will back feed to the mains and kill or maim any ESB linesman working in your area. That’s not me being cautious it’s a known danger!

1. Small generator outside, basic 13amp extension lead ran in through the window, unplug all the plugs from the wall and plug them into the extension from the generator. Something like the 3.5Kw in the above link


Pros
Easiest to do, no electrician required

Cons
Homeowner needs to be electrically savvy, needs to understand how to add up the electrical loads in the house
House owner needs to know to turn off EVERYTHING in the house to make the load as small as possible, this is too small to be able to start with a load connected. Even if you start it with the extension unplugged you can’t turn everything on at once, turn on the firest item and them wait 10-20 seconds for the engine to settle down, then turn on the next item.
Homeowner needs to understand the Kw (Kilowatt) to KVA (KiloVoltAmps) relationship or they will overload the machine and trip it off.
You need to make sure well in advance that the plugs are available – I had to disconnect the wires at the wall in my boiler and also cut the cable in the well house and put a socket on it so the generator could drive the well pump – that required an extra long extensiuon lead that I didn’t have. I’m comfortable wiring things like that, if you’re not then you could have a problem in a blackout and not be able to run a necessary item.

2. Bigger generator - something like a MOSA welder generator (Welder Generator Mosa Ts300) , These will be roughly 5kVA or 20Amps so big enough to run kettle, boiler, well pump, lights, and TV together, or in the link above the 8.5kW champion generator



Pros
Connect up and go, no plugging in and out at the extension bar
Cons
Same as above, just a little more breathing room

From this point on you’re talking about getting an electrician in for wiring but the flip side of that is there will be no messing inside the house pulling out fridges, disconnecting and re-wiring boilers, running extension leads.

3. Fit a 63Amp or bigger socket on the wall near the meter box, plus a manual changeover switch in the meter box. If you know a storm is coming and you’ve a generator rented and connected up to the socket once the blackout happens you;
Start the generator
Move the changeover switch from “Mains” to “Generator” Again it would be a good idea to have high load items and any delicate electronics turned off until the generator has settled down, then turn them each on individually with a small pause between each one.
Relax & enjoy
That assuming you have a generator rated to 63Amps or higher! You can still connect a smaller generator, you can’t run as much in the house on a smaller generator so you have to work out the KW of each item, add them up and allow breathing space.



4. Fit a 63Amp or bigger changeover switch in the meter box, purchase a generator big enough to power the whole house and get it wired in. During a blackout;
Start the generator
Move the changeover switch from “Mains” to “Generator” Again it would be a good idea to have high load items and any delicate electronics turned off until the generator has settled down, then turn them each on individually with a small pause between each one.
Relax & enjoy

5. Fit a 63Amp or bigger AUTO changeover switch in the meter box, purchase a generator big enough to power the whole house and get it wired in. During a blackout;
Relax & enjoy
This is my wife’s preferred option – it’s also the most expensive option. I’m comfortable with electrics & have a friend that rents generators so I’ll go with option 3 for a few years and then if I’m lucky enough to get a cheap generator I’ll go for option 5

2011

Jakey Rolling wrote: »

One pedantic correction - the Power Factor is a measure of the phase lag between current and voltage in an AC circuit.

...another pedantic correction, the power factor is the cosine of the angle between the voltage and current.

sunnyday1234

quietsailor wrote: »

He’s been telling me about the options available to me from the smallest /cheapest (1) to biggest/most expensive ( )

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE WIRE A GENERATOR TO THE HOUSE FUSEBOARD, EVEN TEMPORARILY WITHOUT A CHANGEOVER SWITCH. The electricity will back feed to the mains and kill or maim any ESB linesman working in your area. That’s not me being cautious it’s a known danger!

1. Small generator outside, basic 13amp extension lead ran in through the window, unplug all the plugs from the wall and plug them into the extension from the generator. Something like the 3.5Kw in the above link


Pros
Easiest to do, no electrician required

Cons
Homeowner needs to be electrically savvy, needs to understand how to add up the electrical loads in the house
House owner needs to know to turn off EVERYTHING in the house to make the load as small as possible, this is too small to be able to start with a load connected. Even if you start it with the extension unplugged you can’t turn everything on at once, turn on the firest item and them wait 10-20 seconds for the engine to settle down, then turn on the next item.
Homeowner needs to understand the Kw (Kilowatt) to KVA (KiloVoltAmps) relationship or they will overload the machine and trip it off.
You need to make sure well in advance that the plugs are available – I had to disconnect the wires at the wall in my boiler and also cut the cable in the well house and put a socket on it so the generator could drive the well pump – that required an extra long extensiuon lead that I didn’t have. I’m comfortable wiring things like that, if you’re not then you could have a problem in a blackout and not be able to run a necessary item.

This makes no sense ...

its impossible to run an extension cable through the window and unplug all the plugs from the wall and plug them into the generator. The extension cable will most likely have a few sockets only in it

There wont be any need either to turn off everything in the house as only the stuff you need will be plugged into the extension lead (s) .

It works the exact opposite way of this.... You plug in 1 thing at a time and make sure it can take the load. you dont plug in everything to the generator , turn them all off and then starting them all on :-)

sunnyday1234

2011 wrote: »

The generator will be outside, the devices you want to power will be inside. Therefore you will have leads passing through windows / doors for a period of time. For some people this could be for a number of weeks. Therefore there is an increased risk of electric shock / electrocution.



Mains voltage, in other words a potentially lethal voltage.

fair enough. i am only looking at using it a for a few hours at a time and never leaving it run overnight. Its basically just to keep my son and ourselves occupied for a few hours in the evening when there is a power cut

quietsailor

Jakey Rolling wrote: »

All good info there quietsailor.
One pedantic correction - the Power Factor is a measure of the phase lag between current and voltage in an AC circuit. It is generally less than 1.0 due to inductive loads i.e. motors, power supplies, anything with a coil in it.

Yep, to give you some background - I'm a Marine Engineer, we would have studied a few modules per year on electrics/electronics but we are mainly mechanical people. I was in charge of the generators in my time at sea so I would have a good working knowledge YET I needed to talk to my buddy to get explanations about this.

In these posts I'm trying to translate from the full-on power generation electrician speak to something a homeowner can understand.

If i go into the minutae of the detail it won't make sense - hence the explanation of "just think that a machine wears, needs more power to be worked and allow for that"

quietsailor

sunnyday1234 wrote: »

This makes no sense ...

its impossible to run an extension cable through the window and unplug all the plugs from the wall and plug them into the generator. The extension cable will most likely have a few sockets only in it

There wont be any need either to turn off everything in the house as only the stuff you need will be plugged into the extension lead (s) .

It works the exact opposite way of this.... You plug in 1 thing at a time and make sure it can take the load. you dont plug in everything to the generator , turn them all off and then starting them all on :-)

its impossible to run an extension cable through the window
I must a demi god then :eek: because that's what I did on Thursday :P I had a short extension lead from the generator that was on the path outside the window coming in the window onto the kitchen countertop, then I plugged everything into that.


There wont be any need either to turn off everything in the house as only the stuff you need will be plugged into the extension lead (s) .
- remember a boiler won't have a plug and socket arrangement so you will have to unwire it at the on/off switch and then wire on a plug, THEN plug it into the extension lead. (if you want heat throughout the house and not just in a room with a fire)
A well pump won't have a plug on it either - so again, unwire, wire on a plug, plug into the extension lead.
Now what happens if the power comes back on while you wiring these? you get an electric shock! That's why you would turn off the power at your fuseboard/ meter box.

EDIT: it's a good idea to have the main fuse pulled anyway as when the mains comes back you want to be there to see everything starts up properly.

And I know I'm opening a can of worms here but........This is Ireland, I've seen hinky **** wired in houses - lights fed off socket circuits. Boiler controls wired off one circuit and the valves it controls off another circuit. If by some chance there is a connection you don't know about crossing from a load back into another circuit attaching a generator to the load will back feed electricity into the fuseboard - that sends electricity out into the mains. That would be the "one in a million" ****up but it will hurt or kill someone so make sure you know that anything you plug into a generator is not back feeding ---- or just take out the main fuse!

It works the exact opposite way of this.... You plug in 1 thing at a time and make sure it can take the load. you dont plug in everything to the generator , turn them all off and then starting them all on :-)
Yep. we're talking about the same thing - these generators are small and you can overlad them VERY easily - so start/plug in/turn on one item at a time.

I've posted something in another post since you wrote what I quoted - I worked with generators years ago and am comfortable around electricity, not everyone is so yes your right only use items that can be unplugged and plugged. Don't go at wiring if your not comfortable with the SAFETY ASPECTS. Anyone can wire a plug but if you're inside an electrical socket when the power comes bak you can get a shock.

99nsr125

That's exactly what I do

Have a Kipor Digital 2.6kva bought new for 500 several years ago

Use the gas to cook and range for base load heat

sunnyday1234 wrote: »

I am not plugging a generator into the grid supply. I will be running the generator in a shed, running an extension lead from the generator into the house and plugging stuff like tv etc into the extension lead sockets

this is what i said in my very first post

quietsailor

If people are serious about generators for any future storms the best thing you can do is reduce your electrical usage;

1. Change one shower from an electric shower to a shower that takes water from the copper hot tank in the hotpress and uses gravity from the attic to make the shower work - no electricity required to run it.
2. Look at some way of wiring the boiler and well pump so they can be easily connected to a generator SAFELY. This gets you cold water in the taps, toilets; potable water in the taps, hot water.
3. Change your electric oven and hob to gas or at least buy in a camping stove that runs on gas

knipex

It doesnt have to be complicated.

I have a small 3kw generator. run a long extension lead into the house. Plug in freezer tv and a few lamps. I installed one of those small din rail mounted change over switches in a small box supplying boiler and pump so flick that over and plug in central heating.

its not pretty but during a powercut I can run a few lights top off the freezer for a few hours run the heating watch tv and charge phones kids toys etc..

exaisle

my3cents wrote: »

How exactly are you going to be careless plugging in and unplugging an appliance?

Are you likely to kill yourself next time you plug your freezer in? Careful its a dangerous world out there when you get out from behind that keyboard.

Graveyards are full of mean smartar$es who were too mean to spend a few quid extra to do a job right.

When you're dealing with mains voltages, it's safety first every time.

All it takes is a moment of carelessness on the part of kids, or a lack of concentration on the part of an adult.
Running extension cables willy nilly around a house with kids in it is simply not good enough.
What value do you place on the safety of your family???
Please don't be a skinflint....spend the extra fifty quid or so that will allow you to do the job properly and safely.

gman2k

Pete67 wrote:

Just a suggestion, start the generator and run it on load once a month or so, and drain the carburettor float bowl when you are finished. Many generators are left sitting in the corner of a shed for months or years and then unsurprisingly refuse to start when needed.

Mine was sitting up 7.5 years! Had never been started. Poured some petrol in, started on second pull of the cord!

my3cents

gman2k wrote: »

Mine was sitting up 7.5 years! Had never been started. Poured some petrol in, started on second pull of the cord!

Might depend on the engine. I've an old Honda and a Yanmar that I 99% sure would perform as well but I've others I'm not so sure.

Disagree with his comments about solar PV. I have data to refute his opinion but not really the issue at hand.

my3cents

knipex wrote: »

It doesnt have to be complicated.

I have a small 3kw generator. run a long extension lead into the house. Plug in freezer tv and a few lamps. I installed one of those small din rail mounted change over switches in a small box supplying boiler and pump so flick that over and plug in central heating.

its not pretty but during a powercut I can run a few lights top off the freezer for a few hours run the heating watch tv and charge phones kids toys etc..

I'm not totally convinced that you have to have your boiler hard wired? In the UK I had gas central heating and it was installed with a 13 amp plug for power. I asked the service engineer why and he said it was the way they preferred the installs to be done for safety, pull out the plug and you know its off. Same setup would be handy in a power cut to plug into a genny.

quietsailor

sunnyday1234 wrote: »

do ye guys have any recommendation on a small portable gas heater / hob combo ? i have no experience of those so not sure how they work

i would like something cheap as it would only be used during a power outage

A camping stove is the easiest to find, if you have one of those super ser heaters that run off the yellow gas bottles you can purchase a stove that runs off those bottle.

I'm on the phone so I cant hyper link properly but here is a link to a camping stove
http://www.omearacamping.com/camping-gas-chef-double-burner--grill-gas-cooker-stove-package-3986-p.asp

That company are in the trade of selling camping equipment for years so it is a good website to look through