NBA Regular Season & Playoffs 2017-18

LuckyLloyd

irishman86 wrote: »

I never said on here, i mean the sad attempt of LBJ fans
Yes even with not reaching the playoffs i dont want LBJ, where on earth did i say i hate LBJ. I dont hate LBJ
Give me PG13 a player who i think suits us to the ground, i would much rather get Leonard than LBJ (Honestly i'd rather continue to grow with Ingram at sf)
So it has nothing to do with LBJ and whether i like him, i'd be perfectly happy to see him rock up at the Rockets and knock over GSW (It wouldnt bother me either way more accurate)
I personally dont want him i want George. I also dont want to see him at Celtics/76ers if that makes you feel better as i enjoy watching them grow as a team.
Not everyone hates LBJ to sum up

You can have both of George and LBJ but - leaving that aside - why as a fan would you rather 'grow with Ingram at SF' than become an instant Championship contender? Do you not want to win as a fan?

ButtersSuki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You can have both of George and LBJ but - leaving that aside - why as a fan would you rather 'grow with Ingram at SF' than become an instant Championship contender? Do you not want to win as a fan?

For some fans it's as much about how you win. As a Boston fan I'd rather see this team develop than have LeBron join and potentially give up some further prosperity as a result.

For Forks Sake

ButtersSuki wrote: »

For some fans it's as much about how you win. As a Boston fan I'd rather see this team develop than have LeBron join and potentially give up some further prosperity as a result.

Bostons - by which I mean Tatum, Brown and Rozier- development will be slowed by having Irving and Hayward back for next season meaning less minutes for them. that said, their bench will be awesome.

ButtersSuki

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Bostons - by which I mean Tatum, Brown and Rozier- development will be slowed by having Irving and Hayward back for next season meaning less minutes for them. that said, their bench will be awesome.

Sure, but equally if Hayward was fit all year then no way Tatum and Brown see as much court time as they did so their development wouldn't have come on like it did this year. Rozier only really got increased minutes for the Play Offs, but they were quality minutes I guess.


It worked out bizarrely well for Boston.

irishman86

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You can have both of George and LBJ but - leaving that aside - why as a fan would you rather 'grow with Ingram at SF' than become an instant Championship contender? Do you not want to win as a fan?

Because i dont feel we will win with LBJ. Hes not shown he can win at all tbh. With LBJ i dont see us beating Houston or GSW. With Leonard i think we could with growth from our players

LuckyLloyd

irishman86 wrote: »

Because i dont feel we will win with LBJ. Hes not shown he can win at all tbh. With LBJ i dont see us beating Houston or GSW. With Leonard i think we could with growth from our players

Except for that finals he won two years ago leading all players in points / assists / rebounds / steals / blocks?

You effectively have two players on the roster currently: Ingram and Lonzo.

ButtersSuki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Except for that finals he won two years ago leading all players in points / assists / rebounds / steals / blocks?

He also led both teams in dubiously getting a key player from the opposition for Game 5.


As I said at the time when OKC blew a 3-1 series against GS, they choked. Equally, GS choked against the Cavs - even with all of LeBron's genuinely great (and I'm not being smart there) efforts.




For a lighter look at the debate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbVKSGDrpMg

ButtersSuki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Except for that finals he won two years ago leading all players in points / assists / rebounds / steals / blocks?

You effectively have two players on the roster currently: Ingram and Lonzo.

Simmons yesterday discussing LeBron's entire body of work v. quality of opposition he's faced over his entire 15 years in the league and stated he felt he's underachieved. Another hater?

LuckyLloyd

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Simmons yesterday discussing LeBron's entire body of work v. quality of opposition he's faced over his entire 15 years in the league and stated he felt he's underachieved. Another hater?

He made a huge fanfare of moving him to second all time, so yeah.

ButtersSuki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

He made a huge fanfare of moving him to second all time, so yeah.

Seriously? He moves him to second on the All Time List and he’s a hater? Lot of haters out there isn’t there?

By that logic unless you say LeBron is the GOAT you’re a hater, ignoring everything one Michael Jeffrey Jordan did in the game.

But I’m the one who’s obsessed apparently. :rolleyes:

LuckyLloyd

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Seriously? He moves him to second on the All Time List and he’s a hater? Lot of haters out there isn’t there?

By that logic unless you say LeBron is the GOAT you’re a hater, ignoring everything one Michael Jeffrey Jordan did in the game.

But I’m the one who’s obsessed apparently. :rolleyes:

He only moved him there a couple of months back, and resisted it for years. I’m not surprised he has a negative take on LeBron today, that’s all.

ButtersSuki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

He only moved him there a couple of months back, and resisted it for years. I’m not surprised he has a negative take on LeBron today, that’s all.

Right, so even when he does acknowledge it he’s wrong because it took
him too long in your eyes? Ok.

:rolleyes:

irishman86

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Except for that finals he won two years ago leading all players in points / assists / rebounds / steals / blocks?

You effectively have two players on the roster currently: Ingram and Lonzo.

His record in the finals says hes not likely to win, he showed this year hes not likely to win without joining a super team of which the Lakers are currently not.

Two players lol, Kuzma, Hart both showed a lot of promise but hey ignore them
Brook Lopez has said he will return on a cheap deal and dont forget Deng :pac:

LuckyLloyd

irishman86 wrote: »

His record in the finals says hes not likely to win, he showed this year hes not likely to win without joining a super team of which the Lakers are currently not.

Two players lol, Kuzma, Hart both showed a lot of promise but hey ignore them
Brook Lopez has said he will return on a cheap deal and dont forget Deng :pac:

The Cavs weren't a superteam really, were they? Their record over the last four years without him on the floor certainly indicate they weren't. GS are definitely a superteam though, and the current configuration of the Cavs leave them with no chance.

Kuzma and Hart are on $3m combined through 2021, keep them. Deng is on $18m, didn't play at all last year, ideally would be moved on anyway possible. Lopez might be more likely to stay on an even cheaper deal if he can play on a team with the King and compete for a championship. Point is that the Lakers are ideally positioned to take on LeBron and build around him. Create a team that is stacked enough to compete off the bat.

Either you don't understand the contracts and market opportunity very well or you do in fact dislike LeBron a great deal. Which is it?

ButtersSuki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The Cavs weren't a superteam really, were they? Their record over the last four years without him on the floor certainly indicate they weren't. GS are definitely a superteam though, and the current configuration of the Cavs leave them with no chance.

Kuzma and Hart are on $3m combined through 2021, keep them. Deng is on $18m, didn't play at all last year, ideally would be moved on anyway possible. Lopez might be more likely to stay on an even cheaper deal if he can play on a team with the King and compete for a championship. Point is that the Lakers are ideally positioned to take on LeBron and build around him. Create a team that is stacked enough to compete off the bat.

Either you don't understand the contracts and market opportunity very well or you do in fact dislike LeBron a great deal. Which is it?

They were a Super Team by any standards with 3 current All Stars in LeBron, Love and Irving - or is 3 current All Stars not enough to be considered a Super Team now? And let's AGAIN ignore that and the fact he played a part in Kyrie wanting out......and even a blind man could see how much he could have been helped by Kyrie this year.



Oh but LeBron has never played on a super team.....isn't that right? Not Miami with Wade and Bosh either. :rolleyes: You do realise he has actually said that he never played on a Super Team?



As for their record on the floor during the regular season, they pretty much took a month+ off last year! They've been the 1 or 2 seed in the East bar this year when they were 3 and that was by a couple of games. Had they tried a little harder in the regular season and played to their potential they'd easily have been the 1 or 2 again.



One thing i will agree with you on (finally) is that LA is the most likely arrival point, but I wouldn't rule out Houston/Morey making it work, nor Philly.

LuckyLloyd

ButtersSuki wrote: »

They were a Super Team by any standards with 3 current All Stars in LeBron, Love and Irving - or is 3 current All Stars not enough to be considered a Super Team now? And let's AGAIN ignore that and the fact he played a part in Kyrie wanting out......and even a blind man could see how much he could have been helped by Kyrie this year.



Oh but LeBron has never played on a super team.....isn't that right? Not Miami with Wade and Bosh either. :rolleyes: You do realise he has actually said that he never played on a Super Team?



As for their record on the floor during the regular season, they pretty much took a month+ off last year! They've been the 1 or 2 seed in the East bar this year when they were 3 and that was by a couple of games. Had they tried a little harder in the regular season and played to their potential they'd easily have been the 1 or 2 again.



One thing i will agree with you on (finally) is that LA is the most likely arrival point, but I wouldn't rule out Houston/Morey making it work, nor Philly.

Sans LeBron the Cavs have been awful since 2014. That shouldn't be the case but is the reality. I think it's obvious that the Heat worked much better as a unit, and Wade is a HOF player rather than a mere All Star. GS have four HOF guys at peak on the floor. Does Bosh and Love make the HOF? Bosh is closer imo.

I'm getting bored with you dredging up the past with a negative slant the whole time. Does it not bore you?

As LeBron himself indicated, the decision is not solely about basketball. In a pure basketball perspective over the next half decade LA / Philly are the best landing spots. But the preference of his family is a consideration and his own personal relationships in the game.

The bottom line however is that a declared fan of the Lakers shouldn't be turning their nose up at LeBron coming: unless they don't understand the machinations of the game or just hate LeBron for whatever reason. That's all.

ButtersSuki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Sans LeBron the Cavs have been awful since 2014. That shouldn't be the case but is the reality. I think it's obvious that the Heat worked much better as a unit, and Wade is a HOF player rather than a mere All Star. GS have four HOF guys at peak on the floor. Does Bosh and Love make the HOF? Bosh is closer imo.

I'm getting bored with you dredging up the past with a negative slant the whole time. Does it not bore you?

TBH, I'm getting bored with you doing as Chris Vernon stated and continuing to "perform fellatio on LeBron James". Does it not bore you? Do you not see any flaws with him on or off the court (and again I'm talking purely basketball stuff, no mention of family from me).



So now a Super Team isn't enough? It has to a HOF Team. Right......:rolleyes:



I'm just waiting for someone to propose that Adam Silver just give LeBron his choice of any other 9 players in the League to fill out a roster to take on GS? They could call it "The LeBron Draft". I mean that's all he needs isn't it? :rolleyes::rolleyes: Of course I'm joking with that comment, but that's what it seems like some times around here and in other sections of the media etc.



Now more seriously, crap since 2014? Ah, who was it hit the 3 again in Game 7 2016, which by my math was 2 years after you said they were crap? Oh yeah, Kyrie Irving. And they had Love too. Both All Stars.



You say that shouldn't be the case but it's the reality. Ok, well let's explore who's fault that is. Let's talk about the best player on that team effectively holding the team to ransom and demanding players he rates (let's call them "friends") to be traded for or acquired. Let's say those guys mostly under-perform, but that's nothing to do with him over-rating their talent or "fit". Those same players are now effectively un-tradeable due to their inflated salaries and contracts given out largely to appease the best player. Let's say he ok'ed a trade involving Kyrie for Bledsoe because he rates him and let's not forget he's with Clutch Sports (worked out really well for Milwaukee didn't it?). I'm sure even you'd agree Kyrie is WAY better than Bledsoe given the evidence we have to date?


That's the more long-term effect. The shorter term is those contracts hamper their ability to compete in the market NOW.


I've repeated stated Love is incredibly badly utilised/under-utilised in Cleveland. That's not his fault - that's the coaching - again where they've made some really bad decisions (Ty Lue is out of his depth, Mike Brown was a joke in the previous era) during LeBron's tenure(s); but some of that is on LeBron too. Back to fit - I don't think he's the right "fit" there either. I'm a huge Kevin Love fan, I really wanted him to come to Boston before he went to the Cavs and I think under their system and with Stevens as a coach he looks infinitely better than he does in Cleveland. I don't think he's back at the Minnesota numbers, but I think he looks a lot better.



Also (and again as discussed previously), the way he conducts his business around his own contract hampers the team from planning. The 1 year deals with zero discussions with the team as to what his plans are really hurts them. They can't plan. They're going to the draft next week thinking he's likely leaving but not sure what is really happening. That inhibits how they draft and/or trade for the future and also for the now. If he's staying, do they take a 3 or a PG that they need....if he's going to they package the 8 pick + Love to try and move up. They don't know. And by the time they do, the value of all of their options has diminished due to everyone else making moves. And it's been like this for year - both before he left for Miami and since.



LeBron the GM has made some very bad choices - feel free to disagree, but at least give me some examples. I don't necessarily blame him entirely for this btw as players don't always make the best talent evaluators or coaches etc.; I blame Cleveland for allowing themselves to be dictated to by him so much. I can't imagine him having such say over say a Boston or a Spurs Coaching & Management team; but he's been part of the problem there. And again, to appease you, I'm not blaming him entirely for this - but he is to some degree at fault.


The domino effect of him taking his talents to South Beach was that of empowering others to look after No. 1 more than play to the loyalty of their franchises and fan bases. One outcome of that is KD to GS. Unintended consequence for sure, but had that not happened I honestly don't believe KD has the balls to make that move. And I'm not alone in this opinion.


On fit in general, it's not GS's fault that their players fit better together. Maybe they scouted better, maybe they just got lucky, maybe a combination of both and some other stuff (culture etc.). Who knows? It's an intangible, but it adds up. I don't know if you played, or if you did at what level you played at - but I can tell you playing with a guy or guys you don't like is not fun and the cracks will show at some stage.




This morning's Open Floor? Ben Golliver talks about why does LeBron always have to try and make himself the centre of every story. Great question.


You say I'm negative; I say I'm giving the other perspective to what has become in some corners of the media fawning and unquestioning adulation of one player.



AND AGAIN, BEFORE I'M BEING ACCUSED OF BEING A HATER - HE IS THE UNDISPUTED BEST SINGLE PLAYER IN THE NBA. But he's been the architect of his own failures (intentionally or not) because of the consequences of his decisions (and the domino effects of them) and you really need to start acknowledging that. Try (for once) not to view my comments as an attack on LeBron but rather a more measured analysis of some of the factors that have placed him in the situation where he finds and maybe you'll move the dial a little on your perception.

ButtersSuki

And again, I don't hate LeBron at all - it really makes me laugh you and others on here think that.



I don't however have to love him unconditionally and without question; and no, that doesn't make me a hater.

LuckyLloyd

I'll save everyone the pain of replying to all of that because it doesn't serve to dispute the notion that the Cavs are terrible without LeBron on the floor. I don't expect to ever see a Kevin Love led team in a conference championship final, though he could be a usable second / third option on a competitive team.

No - one on here said it's GS's fault, and it doesn't really matter who's to blame for Cleveland's current roster construction. But GS will continue to be a thing and Cleveland can't be fixed right now without a rebuild so LeBron is moving on. I think discussing that is a far more profitable use of people's time.

ButtersSuki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'll save everyone the pain of replying to all of that because it doesn't serve to dispute the notion that the Cavs are terrible without LeBron on the floor. I don't expect to ever see a Kevin Love led team in a conference championship final, though he could be a usable second / third option on a competitive team.

No - one on here said it's GS's fault, and it doesn't really matter who's to blame for Cleveland's current roster construction. But GS will continue to be a thing and Cleveland can't be fixed right now without a rebuild so LeBron is moving on. I think discussing that is a far more profitable use of people's time.

Great way to debate. You put all this stuff out there, I take the time to respond at length and not for the first time you just refuse to engage.



I never said they weren't terrible without him on the floor; but some of that is on him for all of the reasons outlined, a point you seemingly refuse to acknowledge.


I never said Love would lead a team to a conf. champ. final. Equally I'd never say Klay or Draymond would lead a team to one either, and KD (when he was the best player on OKC) couldn't do so either. So....what does that say?



And I never said it Cleveland's problems were GS's fault. Honestly I wonder how you interpret things sometimes if you think that's what I said?

LuckyLloyd

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Great way to debate. You put all this stuff out there, I take the time to respond at length and not for the first time you just refuse to engage.



I never said they weren't terrible without him on the floor; but some of that is on him for all of the reasons outlined, a point you seemingly refuse to acknowledge.


I never said Love would lead a team to a conf. champ. final. Equally I'd never say Klay or Draymond would lead a team to one either, and KD (when he was the best player on OKC) couldn't do so either. So....what does that say?



And I never said it Cleveland's problems were GS's fault. Honestly I wonder how you interpret things sometimes if you think that's what I said?

We lost an excellent poster on here last year due to posts like the above, I won't be going anywhere.

What that says is that you need a lot of help to win in the modern NBA - one HOF type talent isn't nearly enough without support and a good organisation behind them.

You said 'it's not GS's fault that their players fit better together' and I responded to that - not that anyone ever suggested it was.

K.O.Kiki

Carcharodon

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

ButtersSuki wrote: »

They were a Super Team by any standards with 3 current All Stars in LeBron, Love and Irving - or is 3 current All Stars not enough to be considered a Super Team now? And let's AGAIN ignore that and the fact he played a part in Kyrie wanting out......and even a blind man could see how much he could have been helped by Kyrie this year.



Oh but LeBron has never played on a super team.....isn't that right? Not Miami with Wade and Bosh either. :rolleyes: You do realise he has actually said that he never played on a Super Team?



As for their record on the floor during the regular season, they pretty much took a month+ off last year! They've been the 1 or 2 seed in the East bar this year when they were 3 and that was by a couple of games. Had they tried a little harder in the regular season and played to their potential they'd easily have been the 1 or 2 again.



One thing i will agree with you on (finally) is that LA is the most likely arrival point, but I wouldn't rule out Houston/Morey making it work, nor Philly.

Sans LeBron the Cavs have been awful since 2014. That shouldn't be the case but is the reality. I think it's obvious that the Heat worked much better as a unit, and Wade is a HOF player rather than a mere All Star. GS have four HOF guys at peak on the floor. Does Bosh and Love make the HOF? Bosh is closer imo.

I'm getting bored with you dredging up the past with a negative slant the whole time. Does it not bore you?

As LeBron himself indicated, the decision is not solely about basketball. In a pure basketball perspective over the next half decade LA / Philly are the best landing spots. But the preference of his family is a consideration and his own personal relationships in the game.

The bottom line however is that a declared fan of the Lakers shouldn't be turning their nose up at LeBron coming: unless they don't understand the machinations of the game or just hate LeBron for whatever reason. That's all.

Too busy to read everything after your post but iam really get bored with people like yourself, not an insult as I know you are a good poster and pretty knowledgeable but I do feel a lot of people shift the goal posts constantly to suit their narrative.
I find it particularly prominent when it comes to Warriors and lebron.
First Warriors were lucky to win championships.
Then they ruined NBA by getting Durrant but still lucky to win championships.
It’s a really boring narrative that media members push and the public lap up.
With LeBron, it’s similar, it’s like he just can’t be criticized, and any kind of analysis of his game past or present is nearly not allowed

People may be bored of warriors winning but I saw a stat a few days ago that something like 70% of nba titles have been won by 6 teams, something like that, that’s how sports goes.

LuckyLloyd

Carcharodon wrote: »

Too busy to read everything after your post but iam really get bored with people like yourself, not an insult as I know you are a good poster and pretty knowledgeable but I do feel a lot of people shift the goal posts constantly to suit their narrative.
I find it particularly prominent when it comes to Warriors and lebron.
First Warriors were lucky to win championships.
Then they ruined NBA by getting Durrant but still lucky to win championships.
It’s a really boring narrative that media members push and the public lap up.
With LeBron, it’s similar, it’s like he just can’t be criticized, and any kind of analysis of his game past or present is nearly not allowed

People may be bored of warriors winning but I saw a stat a few days ago that something like 70% of nba titles have been won by 6 teams, something like that, that’s how sports goes.

I didn't say that GS were lucky to win championships. I said they were lucky to get three HOF players from non lottery draft picks. And I'll stand by that every day.

Moreover, I have never criticized Durant or GS for that move. Both parties were acting in their own best interests. However it is correct to say that it spoiled the competitive balance of the league straight after one of the most exciting finals we've ever seen.

As a Warriors fan I suppose you'd like the adulation that surrounded the 2015 / 16 regular season to become commonplace again but unfortunately it's gone and it won't be coming back. That's the price of becoming the man and having the cumulative playoff record you've had since Durant joined. You're winning titles so you shouldn't give a fiddlers tbh.

As for the 'you can't criticize LeBron' stuff - this thread (and threads from previous years) are full of criticisms. His defense, wearing a soft cast in a presser, his GM skills, the past, etc. People constantly whining that they can't criticize while they criticize. You can say whatever you want, it's just that people have the right to disagree with it.

LuckyLloyd

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

He knows his stuff and makes some good points. I disagree with the core assertion: that Klay or Dray couldn’t be the guy at a franchise and lead them to the playoffs. The problem is that - unlike the Celtics and Heat examples where the stars had been leading franchises before - we struggle to visualise it. Dray in particular offers so much that he’d be easy to build around. Of course, that’s a matter of opinion that can’t be objectively proven one way or another. We may eventually see them go it alone somewhere and find out if they’re Scotty Pippenesque stars but it’s mere opinion for now.

Osmosis Jones

Big news today in the Kawhi saga:

https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1007676505562984450

San Antonio’s Kawhi Leonard has Los Angeles — preferably the Lakers — at the center of his preferences for a trade destination, league sources tell ESPN.

https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1007688501020766208

If Kawhi Leonard does become available in trade talks, the Boston Celtics will be interested in probing the Spurs about a deal, league sources tell ESPN. Boston inquired about a trade prior to the February deadline, sources said.

https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1007700266517520386

Indiana had little interest in Paul George trade w/ Lakers -- and that'll be case for Spurs too. Boston gives Spurs best building blocks of assets -- one of young forwards (likely Jaylen Brown), its own 18 pick/19 protected Kings pick, etc. Lonzo to Spurs? Don't hold your breath.

LuckyLloyd

End of an era in SA it looks like.

McLoughlin

I really don't get the Kawhi Leonard drama. He was injured he got the OK from the Spurs Doctors but Kawhi went for a second opinion.

I mean the Spurs organisation would lie about Kawhi's health and risk more injuries.

It seems Kawhi's agent or someone got into his ear to get him out of the Spurs to a bigger market.

Don't think we know all the facts yet and perhaps we will never know.

Joe Dog

Kawhi doesn't come out looking well from this whole saga.There was no issues with him until he gets a family involved as his agents and then all of a sudden issues arise.

Worst thing you can do in any sport is to have your family heavily involved with your career (unless you're Austin Rivers:D).

Osmosis Jones

Kawhi's had a lot of trouble with his Jordan deal hasn't he? Seems like he wants a big market team, hate to say it but Lakers makes the most sense.