Discovery 1x04 – "The Butcher's Knife Cares Not For The Lamb's Cry" [** SPOILERS **]

Goodshape

smunchkins wrote: »

My problem with Burnham is how many of the crew seem to have to praise her innumerable skills a lot of the time.

Praise like "I don't want to be seen with you", "you're responsible for the death of my cousin", "you're a dangerous liability", "I wish you weren't on this ship" ?

She seems just a trifle like a Mary Sue character.

"A Mary Sue (if female) or Gary Stu (if male) is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character." – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

I thought she was anything but an ideal or perfect fictional character, personally.

Evade

Goodshape wrote: »

Possibly. The House of Kor is already represented in Discovery by Kol, who so far seems like the most interesting Klingon.

I actually wouldn't have expected him to be house leader at this stage.

Goodshape wrote: »

Also, it's been theorised that (spoilered but it's really just speculation)

Voq is the same "albino Klingon" who was tracked down by Kor, Koloth, Kang, and Dax in DS9's Blood Oath (http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/The_Albino). After the events in episode 4 I think that's even more likely

.

Stands to reason we may also see Curzon Dax in this show.

Was he a Klingon? I always thought he was some other race. If he is Klingon he's a far cry from a religious fundamentalist in that episode of DS9. Or is that too close to canon policing?

I's like to see Curzon, STD could do with some lightheartedness.

Inviere

Evade wrote: »

Was he a Klingon? I always thought he was some other race

Same

The biggest issue with Discovery is that we have no idea where it is going just 4 episodes in. And it might end up being totally different than what we thought as it goes on. Think about Lost - after watching 4 episodes of Season One, did you ever think it would become all timeywimey and flashforward/sideward/upsidedown/insideout.

Goodshape

Evade wrote: »

Was he a Klingon? I always thought he was some other race. If he is Klingon he's a far cry from a religious fundamentalist in that episode of DS9.

Very long time since I've seen that episode so I'm not really sure how well it fits, just something I read on Reddit which sounded interesting. Memory Alpha does state that "Based on his appearance, the Albino may have been a Klingon, but this is only speculation". And given the events of episode 4, a deep hatred of (other) Klingons is plausible.

Might watch that episode tonight actually.

I's like to see Curzon, STD could do with some lightheartedness.

Yeah I agree, that could be nice – but I think it's about 20+ years too early for Curzon (not that that stopped them wrt holograms etc :pac:).

Evade

Goodshape wrote: »

Very long time since I've seen that episode so I'm not really sure how well it fits, just something I read on Reddit which sounded interesting. Memory Alpha does state that "Based on his appearance, the Albino may have been a Klingon, but this is only speculation". And given the events of episode 4, a deep hatred of (other) Klingons is plausible.

Might watch that episode tonight actually.

He did look a little Klingonesque but the dialogue in the episode made him sound like an alien raider more than some kind of Klingon outlaw. The Albino aside this episode of STD and that episode of DS9 do have a bit of a link, Klingons eating their enemies.

Goodshape wrote: »

Yeah I agree, that could be nice – but I think it's about 20+ years too early for Curzon (not that that stopped them wrt holograms etc :pac:).

I just looked up Dax. Curzon won't be joined for another 30 years so he probably hasn't even been born yet. Emony or Audrid would be the hostof Dax around the time of STD.

Blazer

STD...lol I was wondering why someone was saying the albino had an std and then I realized.
That’s a really unfortunate acronym for a series and you have to wonder wtf no one picked it up.

spookwoman

Goodshape wrote: »

Possibly. The House of Kor is already represented in Discovery by Kol, who so far seems like the most interesting Klingon.

Also, it's been theorised that (spoilered but it's really just speculation)

Voq is the same "albino Klingon" who was tracked down by Kor, Koloth, Kang, and Dax in DS9's Blood Oath (http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/The_Albino). After the events in episode 4 I think that's even more likely

.

Stands to reason we may also see Curzon Dax in this show.

Thought that as soon as I saw him. The books have an interesting bit on him as well

In the book the albino is Kors cousin, he was born an albino after his mother tried to genetically alter him in the womb to try and rid the bloodline of the augmented virus. His mother sent him off to be killed but was found by Orion pirates. In the book his name is Qagh which means mistake.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

The biggest issue with Discovery is that we have no idea where it is going just 4 episodes in. And it might end up being totally different than what we thought as it goes on. Think about Lost - after watching 4 episodes of Season One, did you ever think it would become all timeywimey and flashforward/sideward/upsidedown/insideout.

Have you watched Fringe? Discovery is Fringe in Space. Lots of Abrams inspired pseudoscience that will never be fully explained. The navigations officer is now an alien half rat half insect which gets injured or stressed everytime they do their jump. I expect an alternative universe popping up any moment now.

Episode 4 borrowed themes from Lost in Space and Avatar.

People talk about Abrams as being this SciFi visionary, when all he does is copy stuff from other SciFi, and makes the rest up as he goes and paints himself into corners trying to explain it. And then never does.

Inviere

Deleted User wrote: »

The biggest issue with Discovery is that we have no idea where it is going just 4 episodes in.

Because by Code of Honor (4th ep of TNG), we'd a good idea of where TNG was going?

server down

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Have you watched Fringe? Discovery is Fringe in Space. Lots of Abrams inspired pseudoscience that will never be fully explained. The navigations officer is now an alien half rat half insect which gets injured or stressed everytime they do their jump. I expect an alternative universe popping up any moment now.

Episode 4 borrowed themes from Lost in Space and Avatar.

People talk about Abrams as being this SciFi visionary, when all he does is copy stuff from other SciFi, and makes the rest up as he goes and paints himself into corners trying to explain it. And then never does.

The original series had a floating Abraham Lincoln appear in front of the ship.

Anyway it’s mostly all pseudoscience in Star Trek. Communications are faster than light. Atoms are teleported (but are also information). Ships warp space.

Pero_Bueno

I tried to like this series, and as a stand alone Sci Fi it's not too bad - its just not Trek.
The writing in previous series seemed to be based on Science - this biological spore ****e being used as a "warp" drive is just nonsense - and it goes too far even for Star Trek.

The Klingons look terrible - why couldn't they stick with TNG style klingons, these were the best.

The main character is human that identifies as a Vulcan, is female and is named "Michael" ??

yeah ....

Don't think I'll be watching more.

PhiloCypher

Inviere wrote: »

Because by Code of Honor (4th ep of TNG), we'd a good idea of where TNG was going?

Yeh you kind of did , you knew it was going to be planet/anomaly of the week stuff . That each episode would see them orbiting a planet/anomaly that would throw up some ethical/technological conundrum they'd have to solve , they'd have a few meetings where Worf would advocate a full spread of photon torpedos , Picard would choose the more diplomatic/morally sound option and it would all work out in the end.

And I say this as a fan of discovery , but we still don't have a clear idea of what a typical Discovery episode would look like, or whether ,due to the serial nature of the storytelling, there ever will be such a thing .

server down

Pero_Bueno wrote: »

I tried to like this series, and as a stand alone Sci Fi it's not too bad - its just not Trek.
The writing in previous series seemed to be based on Science - this biological spore ****e being used as a "warp" drive is just nonsense - and it goes too far even for Star Trek.

The Klingons look terrible - why couldn't they stick with TNG style klingons, these were the best.

The main character is human that identifies as a Vulcan, is female and is named "Michael" ??

yeah ....

Don't think I'll be watching more.

If you want consistency with that era Klingons should have the look of the TOS, which is human, brown skinned and bad facial hair.

They should also speak English.

FutureGuy

Pero_Bueno wrote: »

I tried to like this series, and as a stand alone Sci Fi it's not too bad - its just not Trek.
The writing in previous series seemed to be based on Science - this biological spore ****e being used as a "warp" drive is just nonsense - and it goes too far even for Star Trek.

The Klingons look terrible - why couldn't they stick with TNG style klingons, these were the best.

The main character is human that identifies as a Vulcan, is female and is named "Michael" ??

yeah ....

Don't think I'll be watching more.

You sure you're a trek fan?

Greyjoy

Goodshape wrote: »

"Likeable" is a strange one. Not just you personally, Ivy, but lots of people saying they don't "like" Burnham and other characters.

Is it literally that you wouldn't want to hang out with them? That they don't seem to be friendly happy people? Or do you mean they're bad characters and/or badly portrayed or acted?

Burnham's arc for the series seems like it will revolve around her redeeming herself for her mutiny and actions during the Klingon battle. But for that arc to work we need to be emotionally invested in the character. We need to actually care that she will redeem herself. Right now I don't care.

Take the incident with Saru and the spore creature. For a moment it looked like Burnham might be growing as a character - owning up to her flaws. But nope! she's just a manipulative asshole. The kicker is that her manipulation wasnt needed in the first place. She could have accomplished the same result just by being honest with Saru eg "stand here and tell me if you sense anything".

CramCycle

server down wrote: »

If you want consistency with that era Klingons should have the look of the TOS, which is human, brown skinned and bad facial hair.

They should also speak English.

I thought that was a built in translation circuit so that it also gives the impression that their mouths move in time to the words in English.

Greyjoy wrote: »

Take the incident with Saru and the spore creature. For a moment it looked like Burnham might be growing as a character - owning up to her flaws. But nope! she's just a manipulative asshole. The kicker is that her manipulation wasnt needed in the first place. She could have accomplished the same result just by being honest with Saru eg "stand here and tell me if you sense anything".

I thought that was a good moment, I think she isn't a complete asshole, no more than the average human, but that she could not help follow here Vulcan programming (for want of a better word for it). Acting like that is a learned behaviour and I suspect she does it defensively, she may not have been a complete ass but she would have learned on Vulcan to pretend she was as that is the way their behaviour may come across.

Greyjoy

But surely if she was following her Vulcan upbringing she wouldn't even consider Saru's feelings at all? She would have just coldly asked Saru to help with her research. Her deliberate deception of Saru made her look manipulative and underhanded. The deception seemed really unnecessary given that all she needed was for Saru to stand in a spot for a few seconds and observe his reaction to the creature.

CramCycle

Greyjoy wrote: »

But surely if she was following her Vulcan upbringing she wouldn't even consider Saru's feelings at all? She would have just coldly asked Saru to help with her research. Her deliberate deception of Saru made her look manipulative and underhanded. The deception seemed really unnecessary given that all she needed was for Saru to stand in a spot for a few seconds and observe his reaction to the creature.

Quite possible, or maybe she knew that he would not help her, or maybe she was concerned that it would bias her experiment if she said or done something.

I thought it played well, showing her as being "trained" Vulcan but letting her humanity shine through, even if it isn't her good side but I get why it could look like something else.

Goodshape

I thought it played well too. She didn't consider Saru's emotions, because she's an emotionally stunted person. She performed her test quickly and efficiently.

Pero_Bueno

FutureGuy wrote: »

You sure you're a trek fan?

Very much so, loved TOS, TNG and DS9 ... am I obliged to like this one ?


Again its not a bad show - just doesn't feel like Trek.

Pero_Bueno

Pero_Bueno wrote: »

Very much so, loved TOS, TNG and DS9 ... am I obliged to like this one ?


Again its not a bad show - just doesn't feel like Trek.

To you

Pero_Bueno

Deleted User wrote: »

To you

A lot of people on reddit too ..

_Kaiser_

FutureGuy wrote: »

You sure you're a trek fan?

As an aside, this attitude really annoys me to be honest.

You don't like this new "progressive" show.. well you're not a true Trek fan! :rolleyes: Or let's ridicule your opinion a bit, with some "how dare you" attitude thrown in

Give it a rest already.

hal9550

Iv been considering writing this post for a few days now, and i want to say firstly that its not my intention to add fuel to an argument which seems to be brewing nicely, and doesnt need my help to prosper.

I have seen divisive issues previously in other franchises, as a spectator that is. Stargate, Doctor Who for example, when these shows returned with new series, there was widespread annoyance from hardcore purest fandom. I had far more time for the Stargate argument especially in relation to Universe as it was a ridiculous evolution of a formulae that i didnt think required any change. Doctor who was more polarizing, and i personally had little time for purest arguments on that show. Arguments echoed saying 'This is not MY doctor who'.. 'I consider it a reboot'.. etc.. Nonsense in my opinion, although not being as into the Whoniverse as i am with Trek, i just shook my head and watched it.

The Arguments in relation to star trek, at a fundamental level are that it bares little resemblance to the Trek we know and love. Along with the obvious 'Klingon Make-up', Holograms, and other canon issues, there seems to be several blocks emerging within the Trekkie community.

One, of which i consider myself a member, is more liberal in its view. While acknowledging that there are differences in tone and overall plot, we are embracing the new series. We want more. I would imagine many of us would, if given the entire season in one go, 'House of Cards' style, would probably be finished our second run through by now, and lamenting how we now have to wait a year for season 2, without even daring to discuss the possibility of cancellation.

A traditional Block of fandom is more critical, and i would dare say more respectful, in my opinion. they are examining the show, and when something happens which doesnt fit their view of trek? Well we all have that internal canon/fan related 'RED ALERT' which sounds when something is off.. Enterprises run in with a 23rd century Romulan warbird (with a cloaking device) etc

The third group is what i would refer to as the Purists. And it seems many, if not all at the moment, have decided that this show is not Star Trek. Different reasons are offered.. some canon, some in relation to tone.. the mannerisms of the crew.. the interpretation of Genes Vision is terrible etc. THIS IS NOT STAR TREK.. im not counting this as canon, its a dreaded REBOOT!!!

Now everyone has a right to an opinion and im not for a second trying to mute discussion of the issues, which i acknowledge are plentiful! But until something utterly bizarre happens.. Until we have starfleet personnel interacting with romulans face to face .. until, i dunno, the planet VULCAN is destroyed rather pointlessly, or the Andorrian Race is ethnically cleansed from the Milky way, then i would argue strongly that this is Star Trek.. canon issues aside this is the Klingon Conflict that occurred Pre TOS era

And more importantly i would urge that when debating it, no one has the right to question whether we are all fans of Star Trek. Its clear to me, as i sit on Saturday morning discussing star trek on an online forum, embracing my inner nerd, that we are ALL FANS! Im not attacking anyone's right to be a trekkie. If you dont like it FINE! I hated enterprise, considered it to be a terrible show (I was so tempted not to buy the season 1-4 blu Ray, and i ADMIT, i waited for the price to go down)

If you dont think this is star trek, explain that thesis.. please.. What is it that makes it untrek?

If you dont think its canon (after 4 episodes and some holograms and an experimental drive), i think you are possibly over-reacting but again! explain, i would love to debate this

But please, if you can, dont question whether we are fans.. the degree to which we are fans, or whether we are too forgiving or apologetic.

I dont know if this show will make it, maybe it wont! maybe it will tantalize way off into another 'timeline' or 'canon'.. but TREK IS BACK GUYS.. I missed it. And id say im not alone!

As always, im happy to discuss

Goodshape

This episode didn't hold up as well as the last one on second viewing. Pacing isn't great. Still loved most parts and scenes individually though. Great to see the ship in action, figuratively and actually.

I definitely wasn't as 'distracted' by the Klingon makeup or speech patterns this time, maybe helped that I was able to spend a bit more time watching them as I already knew the gist of the subtitles. I think I could actually get used to it. And Kol seems to have a much better delivery through the makeup than the other two, and is also maybe a bit more Klingon-as-we-know-it in his demeanor. Hope we see more of him soon.

cml387

Goodshape wrote: »

This episode didn't hold up as well as the last one on second viewing. Pacing isn't great. Still loved most parts and scenes individually though. Great to see the ship in action, figuratively and actually.

I definitely wasn't as 'distracted' by the Klingon makeup or speech patterns this time, maybe helped that I was able to spend a bit more time watching them as I already knew the gist of the subtitles. I think I could actually get used to it. And Kol seems to have a much better delivery through the makeup than the other two, and is also maybe a bit more Klingon-as-we-know-it in his demeanor. Hope we see more of him soon.

I suspect that any future reconciliation between the Federation and the Klingons will come through Kol. Obviously they will have to create a sympathetic Klingon, the plot and would demand it.

FutureGuy

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

As an aside, this attitude really annoys me to be honest.

You don't like this new "progressive" show.. well you're not a true Trek fan! :rolleyes: Or let's ridicule your opinion a bit, with some "how dare you" attitude thrown in

Give it a rest already.

He has an issue with a woman having a mans name. He has an issue with someone identifying as something else. Kinda against the trek ethos, no?

Nothing Enti do with whether he likes to show or not.

I find some people posts detailing why they have a problem with the show to be laughable quite frankly.

Seems to be the "cool" thing to do online these days.

Evade

FutureGuy wrote: »

He has an issue with a woman having a mans name. He has an issue with someone identifying as something else. Kinda against the trek ethos, no?

Identifying as another species kind of pushes the limits of believability but I don't think that's what happened in Michael's case. She was aware and acknowledged she was human but grew up in a very different culture. Having her grow up in a culture that forces* the suppression of emotion doesn't seem like it would create a mentally healthy adult. I think this is shown by the fact when she boarded the Shenzhou she acted very vulcan but after a few years of interacting with other humans seems much more human, for better or worse.

*whether explicit or something she did to fit in is debatable

hal9550

thats absolutely fine! your choice!

Would you care to explain why>?

Klingons
cardassians
Borg
Romulans
Andorrians
Tellarites

Just to name a few species off the top of my head that have changed makeup and design