Discovery 1x04 – "The Butcher's Knife Cares Not For The Lamb's Cry" [** SPOILERS **]

Mickeroo

server down wrote: »

So we needed a flashback on her life or something? She was clearly rash enough but on the other hand she did try and sedate the creature. Later on Burnham was equally rash, but she survived.

Burnham wasn't rash, she was acting on the observations and analysis she had made over the course of the episode. The security chief acted with the knowledge that creature was dangerous, she even dismissed Burnham's suggestion that the animal was only hostile when threatened which made her actions even worse.

server down

Evade wrote: »

I'm not rubbishing everything he's done but calling a company who hasn't sent anyone into space a world leader in space exploration is a tad hyperbolic.

Privatising the mundane aspects of spaceflight so national agencies can focus farther afield is a great move in my opinion.

Yeh, but it's set in the future and the idea is that Musk will do something. If Musk gets the first off world colonly going of course future humans in off world colonies scattered around the galaxy will remember him. Not that the star trek future will happen.

Personally I think too much is made of Hawkins, the future may remember him but Feynman and Einstein are more likely. And Schrodinger for the cat.

FutureGuy

Rewatched it last night. Enjoyed it more when I reexamined the pieces I didn't like.

Re Tilly saying in the same room as "ripper", it was her choice to stay and help Burnham as she couldn't help the miners.

Re Landry, still a stupid way to die but she seems to be affected by Lorca's decision to play the audio from the mining colony. As a viewer, we have no indication of their relationship. She may have jumped the gun based on previous experiences. She saw the vitals drop on the monitor and it did look like the sedation worked.

Re Lorca's decision to take out the Klingons in the brash and, from my perspective, careless manner, I have really thought about this. I have changed my mind and here is why.

In Star Trek, we have had characters with knowledge and experience so great, their crazy and risky plans to escape a situation are trusted because of their expertise in their field.

Data, Spock, Jadzia etc in Science.
Geordi, Scotty, Torres in Engineering.
Picard in Diplomacy.
Janeway in leadership and survival.

They come up with a crazy plan and it works. Horray. The ship is saved.

Gabriel Lorca is an expert in war.

He has probably one of the greatest tactical minds in the Federation. To him, dropping those bombs to destroy those raiders is 100% going to work and there is absolutely no need for him to even doubt the results based on his calculations.

He orchestrated it from the front of the bridge (which I love). He waited and he executed his plan perfectly.

Was it crazy? Absolutely. But was it stupid or rash. No. if he is the war expert he says he is, then for him, this doesn't even need checking.

The thought did cross my mind why he rendered no assistance, but they are clearly black ops and do not want to be discovered.

server down

Mickeroo wrote: »

Burnham wasn't rash, she was acting on the observations and analysis she had made over the course of the episode. The security chief acted with the knowledge that creature was dangerous, she even dismissed Burnham's suggestion that the animal was only hostile when threatened which made her actions even worse.

Of course she was rash, she made some assumptions which were hardly verifiable until the creature was released. She is only not rash in hindsight.

The security chief knew the animal was dangeous, she just assumed the sedation would work.

hal9550

meep wrote: »

This is the first episode that made me question if I really wanted to keep watching thjis.

There are no likeable characters and, worse, no sympathetic characters. It's full of annoying, poorly written people making bad decisions.

.....

Not enjoying it, unfortunately.

Obviously from the get go, everyone is entitled to an opinion.

That said here is mine.

I genuinely dont understand what people are claiming that:
A) This isnt star Trek
and
They are considering not watching it

To address the first question, in a nut shell, it is star trek. Pains me to say it but so is JJ Trek despite the fact i hate it.. its still trek. Its wildly different to what we might be used to. But i would urge caution and advise that we give it a chance

The second question is actually more puzzling to me. As a first 4 Trek episodes of a new series, this, in my opinion, has been the most exciting intro to a series since DS9 way back in the early 90s. But even if we compare Discovery to its most recent cousin, that being enterprise.

im a DIE HARD trek fan, and i greeted every series as they appeared with optimism and hope! The problem with Enterprise was it didnt meet me half way by ACTUALLY being interesting. Could you argue it was truer to Genes Vision? Possibly.. Could you argue it was worth tuning into each week? well no i would say on that one, it was insanely poor.

Terrible writing, Horrible characters, and plot threads that i REALLY could have cared less about made Enterprise a show that was destined to be cancelled and despite its adequate enjoyable 4th season.. it was chopped

So here we have Discovery, covering a Klingon conflict that has been mentioned MANY times throughout canon. A darker grittier Trek.. possible rogue elements.. Classified Technology.. and deeper plot. And as far as i can tell people are attacking it for various reasons:

-Theres holograms
-The tech is too advanced
-The Klingons look different (please remember almost Every TREK VILLAIN from the borg to the romulans has at some point been altered )
-and the characters are terrible

i would take ANY of discoverys crew over Johnathan 'Vulcan Hating' Archer any day!

Really am happy to discuss and im obviously happy to chat but il say this.. i knew in season 1 of enterprise that it was doomed (i have up in season 3 and returned after broadcast btw). i am NOT seeing a trace of this here

silverharp

I was wondering why anyone would be part of a mining colony, they were raising kids there. The place looked like a complete hole

Evade

server down wrote: »

Yeh, but it's set in the future and the idea is that Musk will do something. If Musk gets the first off world colonly going of course future humans in off world colonies scattered around the galaxy will remember him. Not that the star trek future will happen.

That's a big if.

server down wrote: »

Personally I think too much is made of Hawkins, the future may remember him but Feynman and Einstein are more likely. And Schrodinger for the cat.

The other thing that gets me about the list is the other two pioneered new methods of travel. Goddard, Von Braun, Tsiolkovsky, or random alien who invented the impulse drive or something would have been a better fit.

Optimus Prime

Deleted User wrote: »

I really hope they don't do that, personally. It would feel like they're giving over to fan service and pressure.

I dont think it would be Fan service or pressure, if they did go down that road it would have been planned from the start id say. But either way im enjoying it.

McDermotX

Bit rubbish that episode to be fair.

Enjoyed the previous one, and relatively entertained by the opening salvo, but last night's showed all the indicators of a classic weak episode. Very few positives in among a ream of daft story threads, execution and dialogue.

Not entirely unexpected, as all the series have had their filler, but problematic in a continuing narrative.

Greyjoy

server down wrote: »

So we needed a flashback on her life or something? She was clearly rash enough but on the other hand she did try and sedate the creature. Later on Burnham was equally rash, but she survived.

Nope, the writers just needed a bit of dialogue or a small scene for Landry prior to this to establish her as rash/foolish. So that when she does something that results in her death it actually makes sense as opposed to a seemingly no-nonsense efficient character suddenly acting like a complete idiot.

degrassinoel

Goodshape wrote: »

Then I shall miss your fair and grounded criticism each week


(again – no, I'm joking. I won't miss it :pac:. You've seemed hell bent on hating this since before it aired).

You clearly mean offence.

Goodshape

degrassinoel wrote: »

You clearly mean offence.

And you clearly take things very seriously.

I meant to poke fun in a light-hearted way. No offence.

degrassinoel

Goodshape wrote: »

And you clearly take things very seriously.

I meant to poke fun in a light-hearted way. No offence.

BS.

You picked at my initial post for a reply, you got one, and you didnt like it so you hit back the only way you could, with sarcasm.

Good going.

Goodshape

degrassinoel wrote: »

BS.

You picked at my initial post for a reply, you got one, and you didnt like it so you hit back the only way you could, with sarcasm.

Good going.

Dude, relax. I saw an opportunity for a (little, I thought) dig at your ongoing negativity towards the show and I took it. It's not the first time we've interacted around this topic on this forum and I'd thought we progressed far enough where a bit of humours banter would be acceptable – or at least more interesting/fun.

So, apologies for misjudging that.

spookwoman

I'd add in reason why it's different, Its only 200 years since first warp and first contact. Earth was recovering from a major war and people/ societies way of thinking is not going to change over night. Then add the Romulan war in the 100 years after first contact. The Federation is only a 100 years old,they know there is another race out there that is a potential threat and the Earth is still slowly moving away from being militaristic to explorers.
Landry from day 1 came across as the Jarhead, arrogant with only one thing on her mind and that was following orders. Then add the transmission from the miners and she got tunnel vision.
I believe Saru is probably on Discovery due to his people being the prey and the threat ganglia. I can see this is going to cause problems with the captain and his dislike of burnham is not going to help.

hal9550

I really think there is a negativity around this show which i dont remember seeing before - even with enterprise which il state again, in my opinion, was a far worse show than this one

degrassinoel

Goodshape wrote: »

Dude, relax. I saw an opportunity for a (little, I thought) dig at your ongoing negativity towards the show and I took it. It's not the first time we've interacted around this topic on this forum and I'd thought we progressed far enough where a bit of humours banter would be acceptable – or at least more interesting/fun.

So, apologies for misjudging that.

apology accepted.

I was expecting a reasonable reply to what i'd said after i'd been pushed on it, not what looked to be (in black and white) another insult or put-down.

Fair enough?

spookwoman

hal9550 wrote: »

I really think there is a negativity around this show which i dont remember seeing before - even with enterprise which il state again, in my opinion, was a far worse show than this one

It's todays thing to be offended by everything.

Goodshape

degrassinoel wrote: »

Fair enough?

Fair enough

Sad Professor

Thanks Goodshape and degrassinoel for resolving this amicably. We're all friends here. Lets please keep it that way. Otherwise...



:pac:

Goodshape

Of course! We are one big happy fleet!



:pac:




Annywayy... How about that Discovery episode, etc .

server down

Greyjoy wrote: »

Nope, the writers just needed a bit of dialogue or a small scene for Landry prior to this to establish her as rash/foolish. So that when she does something that results in her death it actually makes sense as opposed to a seemingly no-nonsense efficient character suddenly acting like a complete idiot.

It made sense, she thought that the sedative would work. It didnt.

James Brown

I liked it. The Klingon situation was good. I'm not a fan of 'ripper'. Creature/machine hybrids annoy me. Kind of like Tin Man from STNG or to a darker extent the eel things from the other dimension used for propulsion on the Excalibur(?) from Voyager, (of the space whales from Dr. Who). I was hoping ripper was a crew member after getting screwed up by the experiment.
We'll have the whole moral implications and scientific necessity rationale. "what about our space morals?" etc etc. She's going to go for another mutiny in no time though her old crew mate might side with her this time.

Greyjoy

server down wrote: »

It made sense, she thought that the sedative would work. It didnt.

It would have made sense if Landry had given the sedative a few seconds to take effect. Instead she drops the shield almost immediately after ordering the tranq gas without double checking that the creature is actually knocked out.

Matt Barrett

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I liked it. The Klingon situation was good. I'm not a fan of 'ripper'. Creature/machine hybrids annoy me. Kind of like Tin Man from STNG or to a darker extent the eel things from the other dimension used for propulsion on the Excalibur(?) from Voyager, (of the space whales from Dr. Who). I was hoping ripper was a crew member after getting screwed up by the experiment.
We'll have the whole moral implications and scientific necessity rationale. "what about our space morals?" etc etc. She's going to go for another mutiny in no time though her old crew mate might side with her this time.

The USS Equinox

seamus

FutureGuy wrote: »

The thought did cross my mind why he rendered no assistance, but they are clearly black ops and do not want to be discovered.

Indeed, there needs to be no questions from anyone. In effect they require that no-one but a couple of Admirals know they were even there.

The battle sims show that they're not a particularly good ship in a firefight. Its not a battleship. They depend on guerilla tactics and the element of surprise to win.

If their existence becomes known then the Klingons can devise a counter attack.

meep

hal9550 wrote: »

Obviously from the get go, everyone is entitled to an opinion.

That said here is mine.

I genuinely dont understand what people are claiming that:
A) This isnt star Trek
and
They are considering not watching it

To address the first question, in a nut shell, it is star trek. Pains me to say it but so is JJ Trek despite the fact i hate it.. its still trek. Its wildly different to what we might be used to. But i would urge caution and advise that we give it a chance

The second question is actually more puzzling to me. As a first 4 Trek episodes of a new series, this, in my opinion, has been the most exciting intro to a series since DS9 way back in the early 90s. But even if we compare Discovery to its most recent cousin, that being enterprise.

im a DIE HARD trek fan, and i greeted every series as they appeared with optimism and hope! The problem with Enterprise was it didnt meet me half way by ACTUALLY being interesting. Could you argue it was truer to Genes Vision? Possibly.. Could you argue it was worth tuning into each week? well no i would say on that one, it was insanely poor.

Terrible writing, Horrible characters, and plot threads that i REALLY could have cared less about made Enterprise a show that was destined to be cancelled and despite its adequate enjoyable 4th season.. it was chopped

So here we have Discovery, covering a Klingon conflict that has been mentioned MANY times throughout canon. A darker grittier Trek.. possible rogue elements.. Classified Technology.. and deeper plot. And as far as i can tell people are attacking it for various reasons:

-Theres holograms
-The tech is too advanced
-The Klingons look different (please remember almost Every TREK VILLAIN from the borg to the romulans has at some point been altered )
-and the characters are terrible

i would take ANY of discoverys crew over Johnathan 'Vulcan Hating' Archer any day!

Really am happy to discuss and im obviously happy to chat but il say this.. i knew in season 1 of enterprise that it was doomed (i have up in season 3 and returned after broadcast btw). i am NOT seeing a trace of this here

I agree with a lot of what you say and I have no problem with this being Star Trek.
The 'I don't want to watch it' thing I mentioned is more along these lines;

For the first few episodes, I was looking forward to the new Trek and made it an event to watch it Monday nights on Netflix. Sitting through this one, I found myself thinking there was better stuff to be watching and maybe I could just store these up and watch them in one go at series end.

The bit that really gets me is having to sit through extended Klingon dialog which I've got to read while the audio grates and grates. I understand the creative reason why they chose to do this, I just don't agree with it find it distracting in the extreme.

When you combine that with having (for me) zero characters to root for or care about, it just doesn't seem worthwhile.

seamus

meep wrote: »

The bit that really gets me is having to sit through extended Klingon dialog which I've got to read while the audio grates and grates. I understand the creative reason why they chose to do this, I just don't agree with it find it distracting in the extreme.

When the motivation of the primary antagonist is racial and cultural purity, it would be a bit ridiculous for them to speak English.

Yes, artistic licence and that. But when you have an entire language that you can use - Klingon - it would be a spit in the face of fans to refuse to use it.

The only thing which annoys me is that the Klingons. Appear. To. Speak. Really. Slowly. Like. They're. Pronouncing. Every. Word.

Maybe that's how it's spoken, but it comes across like actors speaking phonetically rather than speaking naturally.

meep

seamus wrote: »

When the motivation of the primary antagonist is racial and cultural purity, it would be a bit ridiculous for them to speak English.

Couldn't we all just pretend we had universal translators built in to our TVs?

seamus wrote: »

Yes, artistic licence and that. But when you have an entire language that you can use - Klingon - it would be a spit in the face of fans to refuse to use it.

Guess I'm not a fan then.

Inviere

Enjoying the show so far I must admit. I mentioned previously that once you accept that it isn't set in the prime universe (despite whatever the studio claims), it's an interesting and enjoyable show to watch. It's far more aligned to the JJ-verse, with strong whiff of Voyager's "Equinox" off of it thus far, and a side sprinkling of Stranger Things.